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Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

View Poll Results: Motorists: friends or foes? (p.s., are you a VC?)
Friends (And yes, I AM a Vehicular Cyclist) 14 51.85%
Friends (And no I am NOT a Vehicular Cyclist) 4 14.81%
Foes (And, yes, I AM a Vehicular Cyclist) 6 22.22%
Foes (And, no, I am NOT a Vehicular Cyclist) 3 11.11%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-24-07, 04:58 PM   #51
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Being yelled at by people with bikes on their car's rood would be a first. The poll is a little distorted with only friends/foe categories. With such a dilema, I had to go overall- a foe. There are enough , even if not a majority, to make cycling dangerous- so overall; I must rate them a threat. Because each and every day, I feel mostly threatened.
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Old 04-24-07, 04:58 PM   #52
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Okay, if you need your "positive attitude" to ride a bike in traffic and have to use it to convince yourself that you like the unlikeable...

The only attitude I need is the one which gets my fat ass out of bed in the morning to ride into work. If I had a mere 5 mile commute, I wouldn't even drive.

I used to think like you. It required a lot of energy. Now I just ride however is easiest. I have nothing to prove to myself anymore. And if I need to ride in more challenging environments, I know I can do that too.
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Old 04-24-07, 04:59 PM   #53
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A "positive attitude" is a religion if that is what you rely upon to sustain a behavior. The VC Attitude is such a religion.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:01 PM   #54
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Uh Oh. 9 to 6. HH, you're slipping...
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Old 04-24-07, 05:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HH
Who cares what they think? The more cyclists out there, the more they'll get used to it. The more cyclists out there in bike lanes, the more they'll get used to cyclists being out of the way, "like they should be."
I used to think like this too. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. The more cyclists on the road, PLUS better accomodation to keep friction between cyclist and drivers low, makes for better attitudes all around. It seems that motorists aren't unrational cows as have been implied here. They don't yell because they are bigots or haters or idiots. They yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way. They are ANNOYED. Put some well concieved bike lanes on a road, and all of the sudden, everything's gravy. Even when I take a lane: no problem. Because they know that I have a lane of my own that I'll shortly be back to using.

Lessening friction out on the road is in the interest off all road users, bicyclists and drivers.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:12 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
It is simply amazing how much calmer things are when there is a bike lane on the road so that motorists and cyclists can cooperate without pissing each other off. I know, noisebeam likes his 20 second honks and is deluded enough to think that this motorist is in the minority.
Oh come on Brian its nothing to do with bike lanes, far more to due with pavement width supporting traffic volumes. You know very well that I have long suggested this road should have a WOL, or sharrows or 'cyclists use full lane' signs. These long honks I've gotten are primarily on roads that any cyclist would be honked at riding vc or not - The lane simply isn't wide enough to share even if one rides in the gutter - I too get honked occasionally on the very same road when driving my SUV - there is lots of driver aggrivation on this road that is undersized for the current traffic volumes (two lanes each way 52k vehicles per day). What I don't get is why you think those honks are due to competetion or as a result of me using a 'weapon'. They are merely honks from bullies, the ignorant and jerks and the overly aggrivated. There is no competetion of one doesn't put oneself in one.

The other part you are missing is how many honks are avoided due to clear communication and due to cycling in a more vehicular manner.

I was yelled at by two teenage boys riding home today. Yeah, they were on bikes and riding on the sidewalk, but still felt it important to yell insults at me. Was this because I was cycling vehicularly on a road with no bike lanes?

Oh yeah, the motorist who honks for >3sec is in the minority. Its happened twice to me in 3 years of riding the same 2mi stretch of overloaded road. (6minx200dayx3yrs = 3600min = 60hrs. 52k v/day = 2.2k/hr /2 = 1.1k same direction *2 (for peak) = 2200 vehicles per hour * 60hr = 132,000 vehicles. 2 long honking drivers = .0015% long honkers)

Al
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Old 04-24-07, 05:13 PM   #57
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Oh, the suspense. 9 to 8!

HH, you'd better rally and find some more right minded VC'ers to boost your numbers!
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Old 04-24-07, 05:16 PM   #58
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Okay Al. Whatever gets you through your day. You have sh!ttier conditions than most. I'm not going to argue with you.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:20 PM   #59
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22 posts in about an hour??? Not including posts made in other threads during the same period?

That must be some kind of record.

I guess I hit a nerve.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:23 PM   #60
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Brian do you really think that motorists who long honk are not in the minority?

You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.

I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.

Al
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Old 04-24-07, 05:27 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noisebeam
I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.
Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.

"The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:29 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Brian do you really think that motorists who long honk are not in the minority?

You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.

I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.

Al
I think that the minority they are in is the minority of people who didn't put their hand on the horn. But I'm sure that others who did not honk wanted to do so but didn't because they feared reprisal or some other form of embarassment.
When I drove and got behind cyclists, I would have loved nothing more than to lay on the horn when they were in my way. But unfortunately (fortunately??) my truck had neither a horn, nor a stereo, nor operable windows, nor...
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Old 04-24-07, 05:29 PM   #63
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noisebeam: Remember, I never said that drivers were friends or foes. I said that drivers are people, no more, no less. HH is trying to force a dichotomy where there is none.

HH: Yea, you hit a nerve. You personally insulted me.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:31 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.

"The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.
Ever have a unique thought yourself Mr. Head?

The truth is, *most* roads now a days ARE made for motor traffic and very little thought if any is put towards accomodating cyclists. Or so that statement stands true around these parts, and I'm sure many others.
I don't need an attitude to ride in traffic, all I need are two wheels and a set of pedals.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:32 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
I used to think like this too. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. The more cyclists on the road, PLUS better accomodation to keep friction between cyclist and drivers low, makes for better attitudes all around. It seems that motorists aren't unrational cows as have been implied here. They don't yell because they are bigots or haters or idiots. They yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way. They are ANNOYED. Put some well concieved bike lanes on a road, and all of the sudden, everything's gravy. Even when I take a lane: no problem. Because they know that I have a lane of my own that I'll shortly be back to using.

Lessening friction out on the road is in the interest off all road users, bicyclists and drivers.
You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:34 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by John Forester
You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.
And yet so many of us have been honked at while in the right hand lane of a 4 lane road with no other traffic in the lane to our left.
People are *******s. I know, because I'm one of them.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:41 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.
Of course it shows my bias. As does your statement.
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Old 04-24-07, 05:49 PM   #68
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Yeah, let's just widen the roadway some more. keep on pavin'! it's the American Dream<TM>
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Old 04-24-07, 05:53 PM   #69
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Yeah, let's just widen the roadway some more. keep on pavin'! it's the American Dream<TM>
Don't forget to up the speed too... give motorists more room, tell em to go faster and faster... (in the case of CA motorists can push the limit up... legally) Oh yeah that makes "sharing the road with cyclists" so much more "fun."

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Old 04-24-07, 06:02 PM   #70
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9 to 9! We're tied!
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Old 04-24-07, 06:17 PM   #71
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Hey, HH. You seem to be the keeper of the definition of Vehicular Cyclist. Am I a vehicular cyclist? I'm confused now. I don't know how to vote in your poll. I seem to have this syndrome they keep talking about. Must have caught it from a fellow cyclist I met on the road yesterday. Doctors don't have a cure for it yet.

I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
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Old 04-24-07, 06:19 PM   #72
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Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.
It's like Tim on Tool Time.
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Old 04-24-07, 06:46 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Hey, HH. You seem to be the keeper of the definition of Vehicular Cyclist. Am I a vehicular cyclist? I'm confused now. I don't know how to vote in your poll. I seem to have this syndrome they keep talking about. Must have caught it from a fellow cyclist I met on the road yesterday. Doctors don't have a cure for it yet.

I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
First your tribute to cyclist inferiority, then your inability to see why your dad's test of riding outside of a bike lane between intersections in the presence of faster same direction traffic was not vehicular, and actually calling that "ulimate vc", has really surprised me. I used to think of you as a Hiles-like (you really should read "Listening to Bike lanes" by Jeffrey Hiles if you haven't already - free pdf download, google for it) or a JRAish vehicular cyclist, one who understood vehicular cycling, practiced it, but still objected to some of the VC advocacy/philosophy, particularly the anti-BL aspects, but today you've really given me pause about that assessment. I'm beginning to wonder whether you "get it" at all (which of course is required to practice it).

As to voting in the poll, it's a matter of how you think of yourself. What I'm looking for is to see if there is a correlation between self-described vehicular cyclists and generally viewing traffic as a cooperative/friendly environment as opposed to competitive/unfriendly environment.
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Old 04-24-07, 07:05 PM   #74
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First your tribute to cyclist inferiority, then your inability to see why your dad's test of riding outside of a bike lane between intersections in the presence of faster same direction traffic was not vehicular, and actually calling that "ulimate vc", has really surprised me. I used to think of you as a Hiles-like (you really should read "Listening to Bike lanes" by Jeffrey Hiles if you haven't already - free pdf download, google for it) or a JRAish vehicular cyclist, one who understood vehicular cycling, practiced it, but still objected to some of the VC advocacy/philosophy, particularly the anti-BL aspects, but today you've really given me pause about that assessment. I'm beginning to wonder whether you "get it" at all (which of course is required to practice it).

As to voting in the poll, it's a matter of how you think of yourself. What I'm looking for is to see if there is a correlation between self-described vehicular cyclists and generally viewing traffic as a cooperative/friendly environment as opposed to competitive/unfriendly environment.
Inferiority??
Can you please explain this to me?
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Old 04-24-07, 07:07 PM   #75
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Inferiority??
Can you please explain this to me?
I couldn't improve on Brian's explanation in post #18. See my resonse to it if you don't get it.
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