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View Poll Results: Motorists: friends or foes? (p.s., are you a VC?)

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  • Friends (And yes, I AM a Vehicular Cyclist)

    14 51.85%
  • Friends (And no I am NOT a Vehicular Cyclist)

    4 14.81%
  • Foes (And, yes, I AM a Vehicular Cyclist)

    6 22.22%
  • Foes (And, no, I am NOT a Vehicular Cyclist)

    3 11.11%
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  1. #51
    Senior Member cyclezealot's Avatar
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    Being yelled at by people with bikes on their car's rood would be a first. The poll is a little distorted with only friends/foe categories. With such a dilema, I had to go overall- a foe. There are enough , even if not a majority, to make cycling dangerous- so overall; I must rate them a threat. Because each and every day, I feel mostly threatened.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Okay, if you need your "positive attitude" to ride a bike in traffic and have to use it to convince yourself that you like the unlikeable...

    The only attitude I need is the one which gets my fat ass out of bed in the morning to ride into work. If I had a mere 5 mile commute, I wouldn't even drive.

    I used to think like you. It required a lot of energy. Now I just ride however is easiest. I have nothing to prove to myself anymore. And if I need to ride in more challenging environments, I know I can do that too.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  3. #53
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    A "positive attitude" is a religion if that is what you rely upon to sustain a behavior. The VC Attitude is such a religion.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  4. #54
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Uh Oh. 9 to 6. HH, you're slipping...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  5. #55
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HH
    Who cares what they think? The more cyclists out there, the more they'll get used to it. The more cyclists out there in bike lanes, the more they'll get used to cyclists being out of the way, "like they should be."
    I used to think like this too. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. The more cyclists on the road, PLUS better accomodation to keep friction between cyclist and drivers low, makes for better attitudes all around. It seems that motorists aren't unrational cows as have been implied here. They don't yell because they are bigots or haters or idiots. They yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way. They are ANNOYED. Put some well concieved bike lanes on a road, and all of the sudden, everything's gravy. Even when I take a lane: no problem. Because they know that I have a lane of my own that I'll shortly be back to using.

    Lessening friction out on the road is in the interest off all road users, bicyclists and drivers.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  6. #56
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    It is simply amazing how much calmer things are when there is a bike lane on the road so that motorists and cyclists can cooperate without pissing each other off. I know, noisebeam likes his 20 second honks and is deluded enough to think that this motorist is in the minority.
    Oh come on Brian its nothing to do with bike lanes, far more to due with pavement width supporting traffic volumes. You know very well that I have long suggested this road should have a WOL, or sharrows or 'cyclists use full lane' signs. These long honks I've gotten are primarily on roads that any cyclist would be honked at riding vc or not - The lane simply isn't wide enough to share even if one rides in the gutter - I too get honked occasionally on the very same road when driving my SUV - there is lots of driver aggrivation on this road that is undersized for the current traffic volumes (two lanes each way 52k vehicles per day). What I don't get is why you think those honks are due to competetion or as a result of me using a 'weapon'. They are merely honks from bullies, the ignorant and jerks and the overly aggrivated. There is no competetion of one doesn't put oneself in one.

    The other part you are missing is how many honks are avoided due to clear communication and due to cycling in a more vehicular manner.

    I was yelled at by two teenage boys riding home today. Yeah, they were on bikes and riding on the sidewalk, but still felt it important to yell insults at me. Was this because I was cycling vehicularly on a road with no bike lanes?

    Oh yeah, the motorist who honks for >3sec is in the minority. Its happened twice to me in 3 years of riding the same 2mi stretch of overloaded road. (6minx200dayx3yrs = 3600min = 60hrs. 52k v/day = 2.2k/hr /2 = 1.1k same direction *2 (for peak) = 2200 vehicles per hour * 60hr = 132,000 vehicles. 2 long honking drivers = .0015% long honkers)

    Al

  7. #57
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Oh, the suspense. 9 to 8!

    HH, you'd better rally and find some more right minded VC'ers to boost your numbers!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  8. #58
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Okay Al. Whatever gets you through your day. You have sh!ttier conditions than most. I'm not going to argue with you.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  9. #59
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    22 posts in about an hour??? Not including posts made in other threads during the same period?

    That must be some kind of record.

    I guess I hit a nerve.

  10. #60
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Brian do you really think that motorists who long honk are not in the minority?

    You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.

    I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.

    Al

  11. #61
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.
    Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.

    "The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.

  12. #62
    pj7
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Brian do you really think that motorists who long honk are not in the minority?

    You are right conditions are worse than yours. I ride in only a Silver Level Bike Friendly City, Portland is gold. But according to this rating, only 17 (major) cities are better than where I live.

    I get friendly cooperation from so many motorists, it would be a shame to throw it away and start treating every driver as a foe. That is where I am coming from.

    Al
    I think that the minority they are in is the minority of people who didn't put their hand on the horn. But I'm sure that others who did not honk wanted to do so but didn't because they feared reprisal or some other form of embarassment.
    When I drove and got behind cyclists, I would have loved nothing more than to lay on the horn when they were in my way. But unfortunately (fortunately??) my truck had neither a horn, nor a stereo, nor operable windows, nor...
    I am a sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    noisebeam: Remember, I never said that drivers were friends or foes. I said that drivers are people, no more, no less. HH is trying to force a dichotomy where there is none.

    HH: Yea, you hit a nerve. You personally insulted me.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  14. #64
    pj7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.

    "The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.
    Ever have a unique thought yourself Mr. Head?

    The truth is, *most* roads now a days ARE made for motor traffic and very little thought if any is put towards accomodating cyclists. Or so that statement stands true around these parts, and I'm sure many others.
    I don't need an attitude to ride in traffic, all I need are two wheels and a set of pedals.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    I used to think like this too. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way. The more cyclists on the road, PLUS better accomodation to keep friction between cyclist and drivers low, makes for better attitudes all around. It seems that motorists aren't unrational cows as have been implied here. They don't yell because they are bigots or haters or idiots. They yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way. They are ANNOYED. Put some well concieved bike lanes on a road, and all of the sudden, everything's gravy. Even when I take a lane: no problem. Because they know that I have a lane of my own that I'll shortly be back to using.

    Lessening friction out on the road is in the interest off all road users, bicyclists and drivers.
    You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.

  16. #66
    pj7
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.
    And yet so many of us have been honked at while in the right hand lane of a 4 lane road with no other traffic in the lane to our left.
    People are *******s. I know, because I'm one of them.
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  17. #67
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    You have postulated a road design that is inadequate. "They [motorists] yell and honk because we are, by necessity of the road design, in the way." Correcting the design so that motorists have room to overtake cyclists does not take a bike-lane stripe, which cannot be installed there. What is required is roadway widening, which solves the problem without the additional complications produced by having a bike-lane stripe. So don't praise the bike lane in this situation, because it is not only irrelevant, but the praise shows your bias.
    Of course it shows my bias. As does your statement.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  18. #68
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Yeah, let's just widen the roadway some more. keep on pavin'! it's the American Dream<TM>

  19. #69
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Yeah, let's just widen the roadway some more. keep on pavin'! it's the American Dream<TM>
    Don't forget to up the speed too... give motorists more room, tell em to go faster and faster... (in the case of CA motorists can push the limit up... legally) Oh yeah that makes "sharing the road with cyclists" so much more "fun."


  20. #70
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    9 to 9! We're tied!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  21. #71
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Hey, HH. You seem to be the keeper of the definition of Vehicular Cyclist. Am I a vehicular cyclist? I'm confused now. I don't know how to vote in your poll. I seem to have this syndrome they keep talking about. Must have caught it from a fellow cyclist I met on the road yesterday. Doctors don't have a cure for it yet.

    I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  22. #72
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Al's words, on the other hand, exemplify the positive attitude of a vehicular-cyclist. Way to go, Al.
    It's like Tim on Tool Time.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  23. #73
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Hey, HH. You seem to be the keeper of the definition of Vehicular Cyclist. Am I a vehicular cyclist? I'm confused now. I don't know how to vote in your poll. I seem to have this syndrome they keep talking about. Must have caught it from a fellow cyclist I met on the road yesterday. Doctors don't have a cure for it yet.

    I mean, I do everything that John Forester taught me (though this syndrome thing gives me a predilection for bike lanes that I just can't figure out). I take lanes. I ride through all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. Yet, I just don't love those motorists who yell or blast past me with inches to spare. I just don't have that VC Attitude. Does that make me less of a VC'ist?
    First your tribute to cyclist inferiority, then your inability to see why your dad's test of riding outside of a bike lane between intersections in the presence of faster same direction traffic was not vehicular, and actually calling that "ulimate vc", has really surprised me. I used to think of you as a Hiles-like (you really should read "Listening to Bike lanes" by Jeffrey Hiles if you haven't already - free pdf download, google for it) or a JRAish vehicular cyclist, one who understood vehicular cycling, practiced it, but still objected to some of the VC advocacy/philosophy, particularly the anti-BL aspects, but today you've really given me pause about that assessment. I'm beginning to wonder whether you "get it" at all (which of course is required to practice it).

    As to voting in the poll, it's a matter of how you think of yourself. What I'm looking for is to see if there is a correlation between self-described vehicular cyclists and generally viewing traffic as a cooperative/friendly environment as opposed to competitive/unfriendly environment.

  24. #74
    pj7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    First your tribute to cyclist inferiority, then your inability to see why your dad's test of riding outside of a bike lane between intersections in the presence of faster same direction traffic was not vehicular, and actually calling that "ulimate vc", has really surprised me. I used to think of you as a Hiles-like (you really should read "Listening to Bike lanes" by Jeffrey Hiles if you haven't already - free pdf download, google for it) or a JRAish vehicular cyclist, one who understood vehicular cycling, practiced it, but still objected to some of the VC advocacy/philosophy, particularly the anti-BL aspects, but today you've really given me pause about that assessment. I'm beginning to wonder whether you "get it" at all (which of course is required to practice it).

    As to voting in the poll, it's a matter of how you think of yourself. What I'm looking for is to see if there is a correlation between self-described vehicular cyclists and generally viewing traffic as a cooperative/friendly environment as opposed to competitive/unfriendly environment.
    Inferiority??
    Can you please explain this to me?
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  25. #75
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pj7
    Inferiority??
    Can you please explain this to me?
    I couldn't improve on Brian's explanation in post #18. See my resonse to it if you don't get it.

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