What makes a Vehicular Cyclist?
#51
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Of course I evaluate things I read through the lense of my experience. I register my problems with it, and you repeat the argument, a little differently, but in the same fundamental form. If the measure is reading and responding in light of your own experience, the fact that you just keep repeating yourself means that you, yourself, have little experience beyond what you read of others that you agree with just to be fashionable.
But, when talking about things I haven't thought about or are outside my experiences, as you claim you are, then the experience of the "teacher" is of extreme relevance. You try to play teacher, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. But not anymore. If you want to continue to play teacher, then you need to have the bonifieds to back that status.
So, you've got three questions before you. I'm waiting patiently for your response.
But, when talking about things I haven't thought about or are outside my experiences, as you claim you are, then the experience of the "teacher" is of extreme relevance. You try to play teacher, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. But not anymore. If you want to continue to play teacher, then you need to have the bonifieds to back that status.
So, you've got three questions before you. I'm waiting patiently for your response.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#52
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Translation: If we consider experience, I can't act like I am superior.
Quite the contrary. What I am saying is YOU are superior. YOU, each and everyone one of you who reads this or anything else is the SUPREME AUTHORITY on what YOU determine to be true, just as I am that for me (but of course not for you, because you, and only you, are that for you).
#53
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Huh? What is the statement that I made that has been contradicted by another's direct experience? What is that experience, and how does it contradict the statement?
I understand this is your impression. Can you please provide a specific example of:
- A statement that I made about something being true.
- Someone saying their direct experience contradicted what my statement says is true.
- An explanation for how that experience contradicts the statement.
- My insistence that their contradictory experiences are wrong.
With the subject of bike lanes, this has happened repeatedly.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#54
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Quite the contrary. What I am saying is YOU are superior. YOU, each and everyone one of you who reads this or anything else is the SUPREME AUTHORITY on what YOU determine to be true, just as I am that for me (but of course not for you, because you, and only you, are that for you).
Now, you've got three questions to determine your authority to play teacher. Each time you refuse is good, because it lets people know that your statements are of little relevence to anything and more people will ignore you.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the hills of Orange, CA
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that experience doesn't always correlate with skill. For example, who is more skilled, the wrong-way cyclist that has stayed only on quiet residential streets for 40 years, or the cyclist who has only been riding for 5 years but has done so in many different traffic scenarios? The reason I bring this up is that I've seen the former say they are "cycling experts" when participating in bicycle advisory committees and similar venues.
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 336
Bikes: Scott CR1-Gary Fisher Sugar-Litespeed Ultimate
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
But, when talking about things I haven't thought about or are outside my experiences, as you claim you are, then the experience of the "teacher" is of extreme relevance. You try to play teacher, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. But not anymore. If you want to continue to play teacher, then you need to have the bonifieds to back that status.
#57
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Of course I evaluate things I read through the lense of my experience. I register my problems with it, and you repeat the argument, a little differently, but in the same fundamental form. If the measure is reading and responding in light of your own experience, the fact that you just keep repeating yourself means that you, yourself, have little experience beyond what you read of others that you agree with just to be fashionable.
But, when talking about things I haven't thought about or are outside my experiences, as you claim you are, then the experience of the "teacher" is of extreme relevance. You try to play teacher, and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. But not anymore. If you want to continue to play teacher, then you need to have the bonifieds to back that status.
So, you've got three questions before you. I'm waiting patiently for your response.
So, you've got three questions before you. I'm waiting patiently for your response.
For me, everyone is a teacher, even Bek, even my 7 year old daughter when she was 6 months old. Everyone has experience and knowledge that I don't have. When someone says something, I listen to it, no matter who says it, and I evaluate it, as objectively as I can. Sometimes I have to take into account who said in order to put it in context and understand what it means, but I rarely use that information -- who said it or my evaluation of them, including their experience -- to determine whether I believe what they say is true.
There are exceptions, of course. There are certainly authoritative contexts in which I assume what some authority is saying is true until proven otherwise. But I certainly hope neither you or anyone else gives anything I or anyone else says in an internet forum that kind of authority, except maybe when they are writing something about their own experience, which requires you to take their word for it. That's why I try to limit writing much about my own experience, and why I'm surprised when people ask for that kind of subjective information.
#58
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that experience doesn't always correlate with skill. For example, who is more skilled, the wrong-way cyclist that has stayed only on quiet residential streets for 40 years, or the cyclist who has only been riding for 5 years but has done so in many different traffic scenarios? The reason I bring this up is that I've seen the former say they are "cycling experts" when participating in bicycle advisory committees and similar venues.
HH: here are the questions again:
1. answering the OP
2. outlining your experience cycling in traffic
3. outlining how often you use your bike as transportation....say commuting to work.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: upper devonian
Posts: 894
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Quite the contrary. What I am saying is YOU are superior. YOU, each and everyone one of you who reads this or anything else is the SUPREME AUTHORITY on what YOU determine to be true, just as I am that for me (but of course not for you, because you, and only you, are that for you).
#60
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
All I hear is myself speaking in tongues and copping feels under cover of uncontrolled spasms.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#61
Senior Member
Thread Starter
HH: if you don't think that experience matters, it certainly doesn't harm you let us in on what your experience is, does it?
You are being disingenuous. You know that you have no right to berate and argue with people if it is revealed that you are all hot air. Not only disingenuous, but you are dangerous too; you speak as if from authority, and there are some who do take you for your word. Your interest is to convince people to agree with you, and you are thrilled if they take you for your word. But nobody is going to be convinced if they find out that you have no experience backing those words, now will they. This is why you refuse.
You are being disingenuous. You know that you have no right to berate and argue with people if it is revealed that you are all hot air. Not only disingenuous, but you are dangerous too; you speak as if from authority, and there are some who do take you for your word. Your interest is to convince people to agree with you, and you are thrilled if they take you for your word. But nobody is going to be convinced if they find out that you have no experience backing those words, now will they. This is why you refuse.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#62
Part-time epistemologist
In my own words ...
Riding VC is, roughly speaking, cycling on roads subject to the normal traffic rules for standard vehicles. This implies that one is subject to the rules, norms, and responsibilities of a standard vehicle.
...
More importantly, I believe that we should all distinguish between the cycling strategy and the advocacy strategy that is often implied with the VC label. That is cycling VC and advocating that others ride VC is not the same thing as John Forester's (just in case there is another John floating around here) belief that cycling advocacy should focus on the avid/competent/transportational cyclist and omit increasing the cycling population as a primary goal.
-G
Riding VC is, roughly speaking, cycling on roads subject to the normal traffic rules for standard vehicles. This implies that one is subject to the rules, norms, and responsibilities of a standard vehicle.
...
More importantly, I believe that we should all distinguish between the cycling strategy and the advocacy strategy that is often implied with the VC label. That is cycling VC and advocating that others ride VC is not the same thing as John Forester's (just in case there is another John floating around here) belief that cycling advocacy should focus on the avid/competent/transportational cyclist and omit increasing the cycling population as a primary goal.
-G
#63
Senior Member
Thread Starter
^^^
I have often tried to separate the vehicular cycling techniques from Vehicular Cycling Advocacy. I consider myself to ride in the vehicular cycling style, but I am not a Vehicular Cyclist (or at least, I don't think I am ). The Vehicular Cyclists though, don't accept this distinction. To them, riding style is wrapped up with advocacy.
I have often tried to separate the vehicular cycling techniques from Vehicular Cycling Advocacy. I consider myself to ride in the vehicular cycling style, but I am not a Vehicular Cyclist (or at least, I don't think I am ). The Vehicular Cyclists though, don't accept this distinction. To them, riding style is wrapped up with advocacy.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#64
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
What I am saying is YOU are superior. YOU, each and everyone one of you who reads this or anything else is the SUPREME AUTHORITY on what YOU determine to be true, just as I am that for me (but of course not for you, because you, and only you, are that for you).
What I mean by you being the supreme authority on deciding what you believe to be true, is that you objectively evaluate anything anyone says, and, based on your own experience and knowledge, you decide whether it's true. There is no one on Earth who is never going to say anything false, and there is no one who only speaks the truth (whether intentionally or by mistake, everyone speaks or writes falsehoods from time to time, and I'm certainly no exception). So it's a false dichotomy. No matter who says something, you need to evaluate it, because knowing who said it tells you nothing about whether you should believe it or not. At best, maybe it tells you something about how probable it is to be true or false. But even someone who lies all the time is bound to say something truthful once in a while, something you can objectively evaluate, so you might as well. And even someone who is usually right is bound to be wrong once in a while, so you still need to objectively evaluate what they say. The need to objectively evaluate words should not be a function of who said them, or what that person's experience is, or any other subjective factor, by definition.
But what happens when some person with little experience reads your little spiels thinking that you have a lot of experience, follows your advice, and then is put in danger?
If you have little experience, but keep talking, then some of us who knows better need to put a check on you. Unfortunately, this check needs to happen repeatedly, because you never stop talking.
Now, you've got three questions to determine your authority to play teacher. Each time you refuse is good, because it lets people know that your statements are of little relevence to anything and more people will ignore you.
You and everyone else are free to objectively evaluate everything I say exclusively based on your own experience and knowledge, which is what I recommend and expect that you do.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 04-25-07 at 12:00 PM.
#65
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Still waiting on those questions, HH.
This is no ad hominem attack. This is a simple request for some background, asked of someone who writes a lot on a subject which is very experience oriented. It is a very simple request.
I should point out that there have been many examples of people pointing out that you give bad (and dangerous) advice, including recently about splitting lanes in traffic while approaching a light.
This is no ad hominem attack. This is a simple request for some background, asked of someone who writes a lot on a subject which is very experience oriented. It is a very simple request.
I should point out that there have been many examples of people pointing out that you give bad (and dangerous) advice, including recently about splitting lanes in traffic while approaching a light.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the hills of Orange, CA
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In brief...
My riding style: using vehicular cycling techniques
My advocacy platform: maintaining our road rights, but OK with optional use facilities
I suspect most on this subforum would agree, right?
My riding style: using vehicular cycling techniques
My advocacy platform: maintaining our road rights, but OK with optional use facilities
I suspect most on this subforum would agree, right?
#67
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
^^^
I have often tried to separate the vehicular cycling techniques from Vehicular Cycling Advocacy. I consider myself to ride in the vehicular cycling style, but I am not a Vehicular Cyclist (or at least, I don't think I am ). The Vehicular Cyclists though, don't accept this distinction. To them, riding style is wrapped up with advocacy.
I have often tried to separate the vehicular cycling techniques from Vehicular Cycling Advocacy. I consider myself to ride in the vehicular cycling style, but I am not a Vehicular Cyclist (or at least, I don't think I am ). The Vehicular Cyclists though, don't accept this distinction. To them, riding style is wrapped up with advocacy.
DISCLAIMER: When evaluating the words above, please assume the writer of the above has never been a human being living on Earth, much less ever ridden a bicycle.
#68
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
You are right. That's why the questions to HH. I want to know if he is one of those "cycling experts" who doesn't, in fact, have any relevent experience.
HH: here are the questions again:
1. answering the OP
2. outlining your experience cycling in traffic
3. outlining how often you use your bike as transportation....say commuting to work.
HH: here are the questions again:
1. answering the OP
2. outlining your experience cycling in traffic
3. outlining how often you use your bike as transportation....say commuting to work.
I will not answer questions 2 and 3, because for you to believe my answer no matter what I say would require me to have some credibility with you, which you're obviously not giving me, so what would be the point?
I prefer to continue making assertions that require no credibility to be made, which is true for 99% of what I write on this forum (and why I continue to wonder why you think establishing credibility has any relevance here).
#69
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
In brief...
My riding style: using vehicular cycling techniques
My advocacy platform: maintaining our road rights, but OK with optional use facilities
I suspect most on this subforum would agree, right?
My riding style: using vehicular cycling techniques
My advocacy platform: maintaining our road rights, but OK with optional use facilities
I suspect most on this subforum would agree, right?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#70
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Oh HH. I don't suspect that you will lie to me about your experience. But your refusal tells me much about your personality. I am simply not giving you the benefit of the doubt, at the moment.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#71
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
In brief...
My riding style: using vehicular cycling techniques
My advocacy platform: maintaining our road rights, but OK with optional use facilities
I suspect most on this subforum would agree, right?
My riding style: using vehicular cycling techniques
My advocacy platform: maintaining our road rights, but OK with optional use facilities
I suspect most on this subforum would agree, right?
To clarify my understanding, Brians, so in a state where bike lane use is not optional, such as in OR, AZ, CA, ..., you oppose bike lanes?
#72
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Oh HH. I don't suspect that you will lie to me about your experience. But your refusal tells me much about your personality. I am simply not giving you the benefit of the doubt, at the moment.
#73
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Agreed.
To clarify my understanding, Brians, so in a state where bike lane use is not optional, such as in OR, AZ, CA, ..., you oppose bike lanes?
To clarify my understanding, Brians, so in a state where bike lane use is not optional, such as in OR, AZ, CA, ..., you oppose bike lanes?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#74
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Brian, please understand: I never expect the benefit of the doubt from you or anyone else. If there is any doubt, please don't believe what I say to be true. Is that clear?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#75
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
What does this have to do with "what makes a Vehicular Cyclist?"
Three questions were asked of you. I'm waiting.