Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > > >

Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-25-07, 05:26 PM   #101
saraflux
Senior Member
 
saraflux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Martin Luther??? He's talking about faith in the supernatural, which of course must "trample under foot all reason, sense and understanding." He oughtta know.

Here's the full quote:


link

Surely you can recognize and appreciate the difference between mind-numbing faith in the supernatural that requires deluding, blinding and destroying reason to having reason-based faith in one's rights?

..did you really just link me to a page about atheism? seriously? hahahahaha. i guess i hit a nerve with that whole martin luther thing... it was really just a pithy quote i got off google. i am not going to touch "activistic athiesm" that's too close to the level of intensity that fundamentalist christians display... word games do not impress me. (though i do enjoy a nice game of scrabble)
i think you are missing my point... but, if you sub "JF" for "God", i think it works just as well in the context that my original post was written.
i think that you are being obtuse when you refuse to see that you often abandon reason in favor of the party line that you have chosen to espouse (i.e. your faith in VC).
...the 'blame the victim' cyclist death posts...
...the utter refusal to concede points when you clearly cannot provide satisfactory evidence (i am referring here to the plethora of stats you cite that are patently unscientific- 'supernatural' if you like.)
...etc. i'm sure bek, or brian, or any of those who disagree with you as strongly as i do can pull out the appropriate links, quotes, etc.

i'm done with this... i have had an epiphany- a religious experience, if you like- life is way too short for this crap and i should be out on my bike right now... i don't have the energy to sustain the level of faith you display, Mr. Head...

this post was edited for grammar and to correct for inappropriate tone.
that is all.

Last edited by saraflux; 04-25-07 at 05:32 PM.
saraflux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:27 PM   #102
Helmet Head
Banned.
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by saraflux
...ahhh. the miracle of faith.
if you have to doubt, you don't believe... i love the way this kind of logic works.

how many miles this month HH? I still want to know.
I totally agree with Brian that your experience matters very much if you are going to present yourself (through tone, language and frequency of arguments) as someone who knows what they're doing. (dare i say "expert"?) Your experience becomes crucial to your arguments in that you cannot know what it feels like to get close passed...or how fast you can actually stop...or to merge into 45+ mph traffic moving at 15-18 mph. That first time is terrifying, i don't care how much you've been told about it or read about it, etc. In THEORY, it's simple... but in PRACTICE, it takes a few times to get comfortable with it-at least it did for me.
I have 224.9... not that many, just over 2000 miles total since last year this time, but I'm learning more every day. Luckily, I don't have to deal with congested traffic- it's mostly merging into and out of a service road and then some semi-residential 35mph streets, one-way for a good 2 mi of my ride.
That's why I would NEVER presume to tell anyone how to ride in... say... DC. or NY. I simply do not have the experience necessary to form a good opinion about how to do it.
If you really want to know how I ride, I suggest you inquire with members who know me personally and have seen me ride, like genec and LCI_Brian. My riding with them is limited, but Gene has seen me on a casual group ride as well as the riding part of a Road 2 class, and Brian was present for my LCI evaluation, as well choosing me to help demonstrate in a video how dangerous a bike path was (we had to ride at each other at 25 mph - closing speed of 50 mph - and so trust in each other's skills/abilities was essential).
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:28 PM   #103
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I promised I would answer this. The short answer, now, is what John Forester said above. Here is my long answer:

A Vehicular Cyclist is someone who, when cycling on roadways, regularly, consistently (though not flawlessly which is humanly impossible) and naturally rides in accordance with the vehicular rules of the road because he believes that cyclists who act and are treated as drivers of vehicles on roadways fare best, and believes that the best way to be treated like a driver of a vehicle is to act like a driver of a vehicle. Thus, being a Vehicular Cyclist requires knowing the rules of the road, and understanding how, when and why they apply. This is different from knowing the rules well enough to write about them from a desk chair. This requires a deep down well-understood knowledge that is of immediate service in real time while riding in traffic. Knowing the rules well enough to be able to explain them and explain how they apply in various scenarios from a desk chair is a prerequisite to being a Vehicular Cyclist (because if you can't do it when you have time to ponder, you definitely can't do it in real time).

The reason that the reason that one rides in accordance with the vehicular rules of the road is an important factor for determining whether one is a Vehicular Cyclist is because anyone can ride ride vehicularly from time to time, but only if the reason one does this is based on deep down beliefs that he will fare best by doing so, will he be instinctually guided to do the "vehicular thing" when there is no time to think. In other words, the Vehicular Cyclist's instincts are to do the vehicular thing. Someone who views himself in an inferior way as compared to other drivers is unlikely to have vehicular instincts, and, so, cannot be a Vehicular Cyclist.

More overcomplication and elevation to cult status...but that isn't a surprise.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:30 PM   #104
randya
Senior Member
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
WoW!
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:32 PM   #105
Helmet Head
Banned.
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by saraflux
i think you are missing my point... but, if you sub "JF" for "God", i think it works just as well.
i think that you are being obtuse when you refuse to see that you often abandon reason in favor of the party line that you have chosen to espouse (i.e. your faith).
...the 'blame the victim' cyclist death posts...
...the utter refusal to concede points when you clearly cannot provide satisfactory evidence (i am referring here to the plethora of stats you cite that are patently unscientific)
...etc. i'm sure bek, or brian, or any of those who disagree with you as strongly as i do can pull out the appropriate links, quotes, etc.

i'm done with this... i have had an epiphany- a religious experience, if you like- life is way too short for this crap and i should be out on my bike right now... i don't have the energy to sustain the level of faith you display, Mr. Head...

that is all.
What is the "party line" in the "blame the victim" cyclist death posts? And how do I abandon reason? Recently there have been two similar threads, one started by Chipcom about a cyclist death involving riding on the wrong side of the road. How is that different or no less inappropriate then pointing out a cyclist was going straight across an intersection from the right side "right turn zone" of the road? Who is abandoning reason?

Plethora of stats? I try to avoid citing stats as much as possible, because there are so few, and they mean so little. You must have me conflused with someone else.

My faith is in reason and logic. Sorry if that drains you.
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:34 PM   #106
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,716
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 324 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Not a normal commute time for me, but today I worked from home in the morning. Later I will ride to the bike coalition meeting (you gonna be there?) and so won't ride home until 9pm or so.
Nope, gotta paint a living room... wife already has planned a party for the room this weekend. Gotta a deadline to meet. Today was supposed to be a long ride day. Driving instead... to paint. (oh well, beer comes with painting)
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:38 PM   #107
saraflux
Senior Member
 
saraflux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Surely you can recognize and appreciate the difference between mind-numbing faith in the supernatural that requires deluding, blinding and destroying reason to having reason-based faith in one's rights?
rights? that's a pretty subjective concept. i feel that i have a total and complete right to have an abortion whenever the heck i want to... many people would not define that as a right in any situation, no matter how deeply i believe it is my right.

many people do not consider riding a bike in traffic a right. see how that works?
saraflux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:48 PM   #108
natelutkjohn
Cheesmonger Extraordinair
 
natelutkjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
....and Brian was present for my LCI evaluation, as well choosing me to help demonstrate in a video how dangerous a bike path was (we had to ride at each other at 25 mph - closing speed of 50 mph - and so trust in each other's skills/abilities was essential).
So obvioulsy you are the best choice to prove such things I love your lack of bias oh dicktator of riding, riders at 25mph on bike paths are dangerous to others, typical riders at 15mph or less who can't accelerate to 25pmh on the highway can be dangerous to themsleves - oh, how much do you ride again and where? Your followers want to know.
natelutkjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:07 PM   #109
Helmet Head
Banned.
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by saraflux
rights? that's a pretty subjective concept. i feel that i have a total and complete right to have an abortion whenever the heck i want to... many people would not define that as a right in any situation, no matter how deeply i believe it is my right.

many people do not consider riding a bike in traffic a right. see how that works?
Great analogy.

Of course I see how it works. In both cases, you have faith in the existence of that right, but you don't have faith in others necessarily recognizing that you have that right.

In each case, should your lack of faith in others recognizing that you have that right hinder you from exercising the right?
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:11 PM   #110
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by saraflux
Refers to:
Originally Posted by Martin Luther
“Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.”

===================

This is a singularly appropriate place to bring up blind faith. It is not a matter of blind faith to cycle in the vehicular manner, because those procedures have been tested for a century, improved when improvement is understood, and are the system by which roadway traffic operates. However, it is a matter of blind faith to believe that bikeways, which contradict the rules of the road and add complication, will either significantly reduce cyclist casualties or will reduce the level of skill that is required to operate safely. All the evidence from traffic engineering indicates the contrary; to oppose that knowledge requires such blind faith as is described.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:17 PM   #111
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipcom
Great example of overcomplicating and attaching more importance than is warranted to a simple concept.
Rolling eyes, chipcom? If it weren't such a complicated subject, all you discussants wouldn't be trying so hard to oppose it. Vehicular cycling clearly is the appropriate technique for operating on roadways; the fact that it is so difficult to achieve in America demonstrates that the concerns about vehicular cycling have to cover the social difficulties that prevent it from being the standard method. I don't make it complicated; American society, which apparently includes you, too, makes the obvious almost impossible.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:59 PM   #112
natelutkjohn
Cheesmonger Extraordinair
 
natelutkjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
Rolling eyes, chipcom? If it weren't such a complicated subject, all you discussants wouldn't be trying so hard to oppose it. Vehicular cycling clearly is the appropriate technique for operating on roadways; the fact that it is so difficult to achieve in America demonstrates that the concerns about vehicular cycling have to cover the social difficulties that prevent it from being the standard method. I don't make it complicated; American society, which apparently includes you, too, makes the obvious almost impossible.

If what I have highlighed above is so true, then why fight against a bike lane infrastructure for others? Others need to travel from place to place, but not all choose to ride with traffic on fast roads for whatever reason (and no, this does not mean that they have psycological problems), therefore, would it not seem proper to allow them to ride to their destination by means of a segregated/marked path/lane? My tax dollars are used to fund the car culture of which I do not partake so why not use a bit of it to fund the bicycle culture?
natelutkjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 07:04 PM   #113
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Bikes: 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2014 Islabikes CNOC 14 (son's)
Posts: 10,126
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
If what I have highlighed above is so true, then why fight against a bike lane infrastructure for others? Others need to travel from place to place, but not all choose to ride with traffic on fast roads for whatever reason (and no, this does not mean that they have psycological problems), therefore, would it not seem proper to allow them to ride to their destination by means of a segregated/marked path/lane? My tax dollars are used to fund the car culture of which I do not partake so why not use a bit of it to fund the bicycle culture?
Vehicular cycling has little to do with seperated bike paths so we can leave that out of the discussion.

Do you believe that while riding in a bike lane, a cyclist is no longer riding in traffic and can act accordingly?
joejack951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 07:38 PM   #114
natelutkjohn
Cheesmonger Extraordinair
 
natelutkjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by joejack951
Vehicular cycling has little to do with seperated bike paths so we can leave that out of the discussion.

Do you believe that while riding in a bike lane, a cyclist is no longer riding in traffic and can act accordingly?
A cyclist in a bike lane is free to ride at 5mph if they choose - let them be resposnsible for looking out at intersections as they should. A cyclist in the middle of a fast traffic lane doing the whole VC thing can't ride that slow if they want to be safe. I have no issue about riding with traffic at that speed, but to say that those that choose to ride at that slow speed (or just relax on the way to work one day) must either do so with traffic at 45mph or have no business using the roads to get from place to place, "so go buy a car or suck it up" becasue we don't want to build lanes for them is just the stupidest thing ever. But of course no one agrees with that.
natelutkjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 07:45 PM   #115
randya
Senior Member
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by joejack951
Do you believe that while riding in a bike lane, a cyclist is no longer riding in traffic and can act accordingly?
this looks like it has all the makings of a good poll, you should get Serge to help you set it up.

randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 07:51 PM   #116
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
My faith is in reason and logic.
I'm sorry that your faith has let you down so badly.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 07:56 PM   #117
randya
Senior Member
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipcom
I'm sorry that your faith has let you down so badly.
or maybe it was his customized definitions of reason and logic...

randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 07:58 PM   #118
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
Rolling eyes, chipcom? If it weren't such a complicated subject, all you discussants wouldn't be trying so hard to oppose it. Vehicular cycling clearly is the appropriate technique for operating on roadways; the fact that it is so difficult to achieve in America demonstrates that the concerns about vehicular cycling have to cover the social difficulties that prevent it from being the standard method. I don't make it complicated; American society, which apparently includes you, too, makes the obvious almost impossible.
No, John, your propensity to overcomplicate such a simple concept, then further muddy it by blending in politics, dogma, ego and questionable facts is, and has been the problem, for over 30 years.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 08:18 PM   #119
sbhikes
Dominatrikes
 
sbhikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Posts: 4,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
All this lofty language about one's beliefs and faiths and blah blah blah... What does that do practically, on the ground, to make cycling more accessible to regular people?

I do web development for a living. I can fire up some stupid program like Front Page and whip out a web page and say, with all the confidence I can muster, that because I believe my web site to be superior, because it works perfectly in Internet Explorer (and all those other browsers are too inferior to worry about) and because I have faith that the message I've written on my web page is so important everybody will want to read it, my web page is top notch.

Then the reality sinks in. The code doesn't validate. The accessibility to screen readers and text browsers sucks. Google can't give it a decent page rank because you've got no semantic structure and hardly any meaningful text near the top of the page. In short, your faith and confidence means el-zippo. Nobody is going to find your message, and only a small few who do will be able to read it.

What are you VC zealots doing to improve the user interface out there? Absolutely nothing, that's what!

Most of us regular posters ride plenty VC but we want the environment to improve. We want the motorists to believe in our right to the roads and we want easily-navigable roads.
sbhikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 08:45 PM   #120
randya
Senior Member
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Most of us regular posters ride plenty VC but we want the environment to improve. We want the motorists to believe in our right to the roads and we want easily-navigable roads.
This summarizes this whole subforum in a nutshell! Thank you, Diane!

randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 09:15 PM   #121
LittleBigMan
Sumanitu taka owaci
 
LittleBigMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Bikes:
Posts: 8,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Most of us regular posters ride plenty VC but we want the environment to improve. We want the motorists to believe in our right to the roads and we want easily-navigable roads.
Me 2.
__________________
No worries
LittleBigMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 09:21 PM   #122
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Bikes: 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2014 Islabikes CNOC 14 (son's)
Posts: 10,126
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
A cyclist in a bike lane is free to ride at 5mph if they choose - let them be resposnsible for looking out at intersections as they should. A cyclist in the middle of a fast traffic lane doing the whole VC thing can't ride that slow if they want to be safe. I have no issue about riding with traffic at that speed, but to say that those that choose to ride at that slow speed (or just relax on the way to work one day) must either do so with traffic at 45mph or have no business using the roads to get from place to place, "so go buy a car or suck it up" becasue we don't want to build lanes for them is just the stupidest thing ever. But of course no one agrees with that.
A cyclist is free to ride at whatever speed they choose in traffic lanes as well. It is more comfortable when going much slower than traffic to have space to allow for easier passing (space that would be there regardless of the presence of a bike lane stripe) since motorists tend to be impatient when held up for a long period of time. This doesn't mean that theoretical 5mph cyclist must or should (for safety reasons) stay off to the right at all times. There are situations when even a 5mph cyclist should not be using a bike lane (if the lane is blocked by an obstruction for instance).

Even John Forester agrees that wider lanes allow for less passing friction between motorists and cyclists and thus more comfortable conditions for cyclists who are not comfortable dealing with holding up traffic. All of this can be accomplished without muddying the waters by adding bike lane stripes. Some say that removing the stripe reduces some cyclists comfort levels on certain roads but honestly, I feel like that's a good thing as they'll tend to be more vigilant with respect to the traffic that they are a part of as opposed to the nonchalant attitude that they might have if they are behaving as though they are not part of traffic. A cyclist should not cycle on a 25mph neighborhood road with the same attitude as when cycling on a 45mph road just because they both have bike lanes.
joejack951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 09:30 PM   #123
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by joejack951
A cyclist is free to ride at whatever speed they choose in traffic lanes as well. It is more comfortable when going much slower than traffic to have space to allow for easier passing (space that would be there regardless of the presence of a bike lane stripe) since motorists tend to be impatient when held up for a long period of time. This doesn't mean that theoretical 5mph cyclist must or should (for safety reasons) stay off to the right at all times. There are situations when even a 5mph cyclist should not be using a bike lane (if the lane is blocked by an obstruction for instance).

Even John Forester agrees that wider lanes allow for less passing friction between motorists and cyclists and thus more comfortable conditions for cyclists who are not comfortable dealing with holding up traffic. All of this can be accomplished without muddying the waters by adding bike lane stripes. Some say that removing the stripe reduces some cyclists comfort levels on certain roads but honestly, I feel like that's a good thing as they'll tend to be more vigilant with respect to the traffic that they are a part of as opposed to the nonchalant attitude that they might have if they are behaving as though they are not part of traffic. A cyclist should not cycle on a 25mph neighborhood road with the same attitude as when cycling on a 45mph road just because they both have bike lanes.

Very good, joejack951, but it not quite correct to say that "Even John Forester agrees that wider lanes ... " The "Even" is incorrect, for I have been advocating wide outside lanes for thirty years, because that makes sense in the context of obeying the rules of the road.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 09:35 PM   #124
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipcom
No, John, your propensity to overcomplicate such a simple concept, then further muddy it by blending in politics, dogma, ego and questionable facts is, and has been the problem, for over 30 years.
No, it is your side that has overcomplicated bicycle transportation by injecting social and governmental policies and practices that contradict the rules of the road. If the bicycle advocates had not been doing that, there would be no such problem, and society could be improving the roads for proper bicycle operation.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 09:36 PM   #125
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
How in the WORLD did this get to be about bike lanes AGAIN?!

Jesus, people. Is that all that defines a Vehicular Cyclist? I'm starting to think this is the defining issue, the opposition to bike lanes. EVERY discussion ends up being about how you guys are completely against bike lanes.

Let it go, folks.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:58 PM.