Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 5 of 11 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 256
  1. #101
    Senior Member saraflux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Martin Luther??? He's talking about faith in the supernatural, which of course must "trample under foot all reason, sense and understanding." He oughtta know.

    Here's the full quote:


    link

    Surely you can recognize and appreciate the difference between mind-numbing faith in the supernatural that requires deluding, blinding and destroying reason to having reason-based faith in one's rights?

    ..did you really just link me to a page about atheism? seriously? hahahahaha. i guess i hit a nerve with that whole martin luther thing... it was really just a pithy quote i got off google. i am not going to touch "activistic athiesm" that's too close to the level of intensity that fundamentalist christians display... word games do not impress me. (though i do enjoy a nice game of scrabble)
    i think you are missing my point... but, if you sub "JF" for "God", i think it works just as well in the context that my original post was written.
    i think that you are being obtuse when you refuse to see that you often abandon reason in favor of the party line that you have chosen to espouse (i.e. your faith in VC).
    ...the 'blame the victim' cyclist death posts...
    ...the utter refusal to concede points when you clearly cannot provide satisfactory evidence (i am referring here to the plethora of stats you cite that are patently unscientific- 'supernatural' if you like.)
    ...etc. i'm sure bek, or brian, or any of those who disagree with you as strongly as i do can pull out the appropriate links, quotes, etc.

    i'm done with this... i have had an epiphany- a religious experience, if you like- life is way too short for this crap and i should be out on my bike right now... i don't have the energy to sustain the level of faith you display, Mr. Head...

    this post was edited for grammar and to correct for inappropriate tone.
    that is all.
    Last edited by saraflux; 04-25-07 at 05:32 PM.
    i can't decide if i like riding bikes more than i like riding trains...

  2. #102
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by saraflux
    ...ahhh. the miracle of faith.
    if you have to doubt, you don't believe... i love the way this kind of logic works.

    how many miles this month HH? I still want to know.
    I totally agree with Brian that your experience matters very much if you are going to present yourself (through tone, language and frequency of arguments) as someone who knows what they're doing. (dare i say "expert"?) Your experience becomes crucial to your arguments in that you cannot know what it feels like to get close passed...or how fast you can actually stop...or to merge into 45+ mph traffic moving at 15-18 mph. That first time is terrifying, i don't care how much you've been told about it or read about it, etc. In THEORY, it's simple... but in PRACTICE, it takes a few times to get comfortable with it-at least it did for me.
    I have 224.9... not that many, just over 2000 miles total since last year this time, but I'm learning more every day. Luckily, I don't have to deal with congested traffic- it's mostly merging into and out of a service road and then some semi-residential 35mph streets, one-way for a good 2 mi of my ride.
    That's why I would NEVER presume to tell anyone how to ride in... say... DC. or NY. I simply do not have the experience necessary to form a good opinion about how to do it.
    If you really want to know how I ride, I suggest you inquire with members who know me personally and have seen me ride, like genec and LCI_Brian. My riding with them is limited, but Gene has seen me on a casual group ride as well as the riding part of a Road 2 class, and Brian was present for my LCI evaluation, as well choosing me to help demonstrate in a video how dangerous a bike path was (we had to ride at each other at 25 mph - closing speed of 50 mph - and so trust in each other's skills/abilities was essential).

  3. #103
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,363
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I promised I would answer this. The short answer, now, is what John Forester said above. Here is my long answer:

    A Vehicular Cyclist is someone who, when cycling on roadways, regularly, consistently (though not flawlessly which is humanly impossible) and naturally rides in accordance with the vehicular rules of the road because he believes that cyclists who act and are treated as drivers of vehicles on roadways fare best, and believes that the best way to be treated like a driver of a vehicle is to act like a driver of a vehicle. Thus, being a Vehicular Cyclist requires knowing the rules of the road, and understanding how, when and why they apply. This is different from knowing the rules well enough to write about them from a desk chair. This requires a deep down well-understood knowledge that is of immediate service in real time while riding in traffic. Knowing the rules well enough to be able to explain them and explain how they apply in various scenarios from a desk chair is a prerequisite to being a Vehicular Cyclist (because if you can't do it when you have time to ponder, you definitely can't do it in real time).

    The reason that the reason that one rides in accordance with the vehicular rules of the road is an important factor for determining whether one is a Vehicular Cyclist is because anyone can ride ride vehicularly from time to time, but only if the reason one does this is based on deep down beliefs that he will fare best by doing so, will he be instinctually guided to do the "vehicular thing" when there is no time to think. In other words, the Vehicular Cyclist's instincts are to do the vehicular thing. Someone who views himself in an inferior way as compared to other drivers is unlikely to have vehicular instincts, and, so, cannot be a Vehicular Cyclist.

    More overcomplication and elevation to cult status...but that isn't a surprise.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  4. #104
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    in bed with your mom
    My Bikes
    who cares?
    Posts
    13,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    WoW!

  5. #105
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by saraflux
    i think you are missing my point... but, if you sub "JF" for "God", i think it works just as well.
    i think that you are being obtuse when you refuse to see that you often abandon reason in favor of the party line that you have chosen to espouse (i.e. your faith).
    ...the 'blame the victim' cyclist death posts...
    ...the utter refusal to concede points when you clearly cannot provide satisfactory evidence (i am referring here to the plethora of stats you cite that are patently unscientific)
    ...etc. i'm sure bek, or brian, or any of those who disagree with you as strongly as i do can pull out the appropriate links, quotes, etc.

    i'm done with this... i have had an epiphany- a religious experience, if you like- life is way too short for this crap and i should be out on my bike right now... i don't have the energy to sustain the level of faith you display, Mr. Head...

    that is all.
    What is the "party line" in the "blame the victim" cyclist death posts? And how do I abandon reason? Recently there have been two similar threads, one started by Chipcom about a cyclist death involving riding on the wrong side of the road. How is that different or no less inappropriate then pointing out a cyclist was going straight across an intersection from the right side "right turn zone" of the road? Who is abandoning reason?

    Plethora of stats? I try to avoid citing stats as much as possible, because there are so few, and they mean so little. You must have me conflused with someone else.

    My faith is in reason and logic. Sorry if that drains you.

  6. #106
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,845
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Not a normal commute time for me, but today I worked from home in the morning. Later I will ride to the bike coalition meeting (you gonna be there?) and so won't ride home until 9pm or so.
    Nope, gotta paint a living room... wife already has planned a party for the room this weekend. Gotta a deadline to meet. Today was supposed to be a long ride day. Driving instead... to paint. (oh well, beer comes with painting)

  7. #107
    Senior Member saraflux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    151
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Surely you can recognize and appreciate the difference between mind-numbing faith in the supernatural that requires deluding, blinding and destroying reason to having reason-based faith in one's rights?
    rights? that's a pretty subjective concept. i feel that i have a total and complete right to have an abortion whenever the heck i want to... many people would not define that as a right in any situation, no matter how deeply i believe it is my right.

    many people do not consider riding a bike in traffic a right. see how that works?
    i can't decide if i like riding bikes more than i like riding trains...

  8. #108
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    417
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    ....and Brian was present for my LCI evaluation, as well choosing me to help demonstrate in a video how dangerous a bike path was (we had to ride at each other at 25 mph - closing speed of 50 mph - and so trust in each other's skills/abilities was essential).
    So obvioulsy you are the best choice to prove such things I love your lack of bias oh dicktator of riding, riders at 25mph on bike paths are dangerous to others, typical riders at 15mph or less who can't accelerate to 25pmh on the highway can be dangerous to themsleves - oh, how much do you ride again and where? Your followers want to know.

  9. #109
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by saraflux
    rights? that's a pretty subjective concept. i feel that i have a total and complete right to have an abortion whenever the heck i want to... many people would not define that as a right in any situation, no matter how deeply i believe it is my right.

    many people do not consider riding a bike in traffic a right. see how that works?
    Great analogy.

    Of course I see how it works. In both cases, you have faith in the existence of that right, but you don't have faith in others necessarily recognizing that you have that right.

    In each case, should your lack of faith in others recognizing that you have that right hinder you from exercising the right?

  10. #110
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,070
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Originally Posted by saraflux
    Refers to:
    Originally Posted by Martin Luther
    “Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God.”

    ===================

    This is a singularly appropriate place to bring up blind faith. It is not a matter of blind faith to cycle in the vehicular manner, because those procedures have been tested for a century, improved when improvement is understood, and are the system by which roadway traffic operates. However, it is a matter of blind faith to believe that bikeways, which contradict the rules of the road and add complication, will either significantly reduce cyclist casualties or will reduce the level of skill that is required to operate safely. All the evidence from traffic engineering indicates the contrary; to oppose that knowledge requires such blind faith as is described.

  11. #111
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,070
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Great example of overcomplicating and attaching more importance than is warranted to a simple concept.
    Rolling eyes, chipcom? If it weren't such a complicated subject, all you discussants wouldn't be trying so hard to oppose it. Vehicular cycling clearly is the appropriate technique for operating on roadways; the fact that it is so difficult to achieve in America demonstrates that the concerns about vehicular cycling have to cover the social difficulties that prevent it from being the standard method. I don't make it complicated; American society, which apparently includes you, too, makes the obvious almost impossible.

  12. #112
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    417
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Rolling eyes, chipcom? If it weren't such a complicated subject, all you discussants wouldn't be trying so hard to oppose it. Vehicular cycling clearly is the appropriate technique for operating on roadways; the fact that it is so difficult to achieve in America demonstrates that the concerns about vehicular cycling have to cover the social difficulties that prevent it from being the standard method. I don't make it complicated; American society, which apparently includes you, too, makes the obvious almost impossible.

    If what I have highlighed above is so true, then why fight against a bike lane infrastructure for others? Others need to travel from place to place, but not all choose to ride with traffic on fast roads for whatever reason (and no, this does not mean that they have psycological problems), therefore, would it not seem proper to allow them to ride to their destination by means of a segregated/marked path/lane? My tax dollars are used to fund the car culture of which I do not partake so why not use a bit of it to fund the bicycle culture?

  13. #113
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,849
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
    If what I have highlighed above is so true, then why fight against a bike lane infrastructure for others? Others need to travel from place to place, but not all choose to ride with traffic on fast roads for whatever reason (and no, this does not mean that they have psycological problems), therefore, would it not seem proper to allow them to ride to their destination by means of a segregated/marked path/lane? My tax dollars are used to fund the car culture of which I do not partake so why not use a bit of it to fund the bicycle culture?
    Vehicular cycling has little to do with seperated bike paths so we can leave that out of the discussion.

    Do you believe that while riding in a bike lane, a cyclist is no longer riding in traffic and can act accordingly?

  14. #114
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    417
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    Vehicular cycling has little to do with seperated bike paths so we can leave that out of the discussion.

    Do you believe that while riding in a bike lane, a cyclist is no longer riding in traffic and can act accordingly?
    A cyclist in a bike lane is free to ride at 5mph if they choose - let them be resposnsible for looking out at intersections as they should. A cyclist in the middle of a fast traffic lane doing the whole VC thing can't ride that slow if they want to be safe. I have no issue about riding with traffic at that speed, but to say that those that choose to ride at that slow speed (or just relax on the way to work one day) must either do so with traffic at 45mph or have no business using the roads to get from place to place, "so go buy a car or suck it up" becasue we don't want to build lanes for them is just the stupidest thing ever. But of course no one agrees with that.

  15. #115
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    in bed with your mom
    My Bikes
    who cares?
    Posts
    13,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    Do you believe that while riding in a bike lane, a cyclist is no longer riding in traffic and can act accordingly?
    this looks like it has all the makings of a good poll, you should get Serge to help you set it up.


  16. #116
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,363
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    My faith is in reason and logic.
    I'm sorry that your faith has let you down so badly.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  17. #117
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    in bed with your mom
    My Bikes
    who cares?
    Posts
    13,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    I'm sorry that your faith has let you down so badly.
    or maybe it was his customized definitions of reason and logic...


  18. #118
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,363
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Rolling eyes, chipcom? If it weren't such a complicated subject, all you discussants wouldn't be trying so hard to oppose it. Vehicular cycling clearly is the appropriate technique for operating on roadways; the fact that it is so difficult to achieve in America demonstrates that the concerns about vehicular cycling have to cover the social difficulties that prevent it from being the standard method. I don't make it complicated; American society, which apparently includes you, too, makes the obvious almost impossible.
    No, John, your propensity to overcomplicate such a simple concept, then further muddy it by blending in politics, dogma, ego and questionable facts is, and has been the problem, for over 30 years.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  19. #119
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    All this lofty language about one's beliefs and faiths and blah blah blah... What does that do practically, on the ground, to make cycling more accessible to regular people?

    I do web development for a living. I can fire up some stupid program like Front Page and whip out a web page and say, with all the confidence I can muster, that because I believe my web site to be superior, because it works perfectly in Internet Explorer (and all those other browsers are too inferior to worry about) and because I have faith that the message I've written on my web page is so important everybody will want to read it, my web page is top notch.

    Then the reality sinks in. The code doesn't validate. The accessibility to screen readers and text browsers sucks. Google can't give it a decent page rank because you've got no semantic structure and hardly any meaningful text near the top of the page. In short, your faith and confidence means el-zippo. Nobody is going to find your message, and only a small few who do will be able to read it.

    What are you VC zealots doing to improve the user interface out there? Absolutely nothing, that's what!

    Most of us regular posters ride plenty VC but we want the environment to improve. We want the motorists to believe in our right to the roads and we want easily-navigable roads.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  20. #120
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    in bed with your mom
    My Bikes
    who cares?
    Posts
    13,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Most of us regular posters ride plenty VC but we want the environment to improve. We want the motorists to believe in our right to the roads and we want easily-navigable roads.
    This summarizes this whole subforum in a nutshell! Thank you, Diane!


  21. #121
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    8,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Most of us regular posters ride plenty VC but we want the environment to improve. We want the motorists to believe in our right to the roads and we want easily-navigable roads.
    Me 2.
    No worries

  22. #122
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,849
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
    A cyclist in a bike lane is free to ride at 5mph if they choose - let them be resposnsible for looking out at intersections as they should. A cyclist in the middle of a fast traffic lane doing the whole VC thing can't ride that slow if they want to be safe. I have no issue about riding with traffic at that speed, but to say that those that choose to ride at that slow speed (or just relax on the way to work one day) must either do so with traffic at 45mph or have no business using the roads to get from place to place, "so go buy a car or suck it up" becasue we don't want to build lanes for them is just the stupidest thing ever. But of course no one agrees with that.
    A cyclist is free to ride at whatever speed they choose in traffic lanes as well. It is more comfortable when going much slower than traffic to have space to allow for easier passing (space that would be there regardless of the presence of a bike lane stripe) since motorists tend to be impatient when held up for a long period of time. This doesn't mean that theoretical 5mph cyclist must or should (for safety reasons) stay off to the right at all times. There are situations when even a 5mph cyclist should not be using a bike lane (if the lane is blocked by an obstruction for instance).

    Even John Forester agrees that wider lanes allow for less passing friction between motorists and cyclists and thus more comfortable conditions for cyclists who are not comfortable dealing with holding up traffic. All of this can be accomplished without muddying the waters by adding bike lane stripes. Some say that removing the stripe reduces some cyclists comfort levels on certain roads but honestly, I feel like that's a good thing as they'll tend to be more vigilant with respect to the traffic that they are a part of as opposed to the nonchalant attitude that they might have if they are behaving as though they are not part of traffic. A cyclist should not cycle on a 25mph neighborhood road with the same attitude as when cycling on a 45mph road just because they both have bike lanes.

  23. #123
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,070
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    A cyclist is free to ride at whatever speed they choose in traffic lanes as well. It is more comfortable when going much slower than traffic to have space to allow for easier passing (space that would be there regardless of the presence of a bike lane stripe) since motorists tend to be impatient when held up for a long period of time. This doesn't mean that theoretical 5mph cyclist must or should (for safety reasons) stay off to the right at all times. There are situations when even a 5mph cyclist should not be using a bike lane (if the lane is blocked by an obstruction for instance).

    Even John Forester agrees that wider lanes allow for less passing friction between motorists and cyclists and thus more comfortable conditions for cyclists who are not comfortable dealing with holding up traffic. All of this can be accomplished without muddying the waters by adding bike lane stripes. Some say that removing the stripe reduces some cyclists comfort levels on certain roads but honestly, I feel like that's a good thing as they'll tend to be more vigilant with respect to the traffic that they are a part of as opposed to the nonchalant attitude that they might have if they are behaving as though they are not part of traffic. A cyclist should not cycle on a 25mph neighborhood road with the same attitude as when cycling on a 45mph road just because they both have bike lanes.

    Very good, joejack951, but it not quite correct to say that "Even John Forester agrees that wider lanes ... " The "Even" is incorrect, for I have been advocating wide outside lanes for thirty years, because that makes sense in the context of obeying the rules of the road.

  24. #124
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,070
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    No, John, your propensity to overcomplicate such a simple concept, then further muddy it by blending in politics, dogma, ego and questionable facts is, and has been the problem, for over 30 years.
    No, it is your side that has overcomplicated bicycle transportation by injecting social and governmental policies and practices that contradict the rules of the road. If the bicycle advocates had not been doing that, there would be no such problem, and society could be improving the roads for proper bicycle operation.

  25. #125
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,636
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    How in the WORLD did this get to be about bike lanes AGAIN?!

    Jesus, people. Is that all that defines a Vehicular Cyclist? I'm starting to think this is the defining issue, the opposition to bike lanes. EVERY discussion ends up being about how you guys are completely against bike lanes.

    Let it go, folks.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

Page 5 of 11 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •