Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 256
  1. #1
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    What makes a Vehicular Cyclist?

    I'm having an identity crisis. I've been informed by an esteemed member of our forums that I have a mental disease called "cyclist inferiority syndrome". Apparently, I said some things that made the diagnosis a "for certain" thing. Before, I guess I was like this Jeffery Hills (or something) guy who wrote a fruity piece titled "Listening to Bike Lanes". Now, I'm not like that guy at all! In fact, I might not even be a Vehicular Cyclist anymore! I think I've been expelled from the club.

    So tell me, in your own words, dear readers, what a Vehicular Cyclist is. That might resolve my identity crisis. I am particularly interested in on John Forester's views. And don't point me to a Wiki page. And someone please tell me who originated this term, and when it was originated. Nobody here on this forum seems to know. I'd contribute myself, but apparently I'm confused and have this mental disease. Remember, in your own words folks. In addition to Wiki, the bicycling life page, the bicycle driving page, and the John Forester page is off limits. In fact, don't point me anywhere. Just give your best explaination.

    In your own words.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  2. #2
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    supposedly, it's its operating according to the rules of the road...but from what I understand, it's very, very loose.

    vc can use bike paths, can ride in bike lanes, run stop signs, and not have to signal. esentially, expedient bicycling to suit the rider.

    Oh,oh, oh, you have to be against bike specific infrastructure and against bike lanes- THAT'S what makes a "VC." They can use a bike lane, but have to be allied against them.

    This is parody, btw but not ironic.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-25-07 at 08:23 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  3. #3
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,353
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Vehicular Cyclist - one who follows the rules and laws of the road while riding on the road - period. All the rest of the wackiness, added by JF, HH and the rest of the merry zealots is nothing but political rhetoric and horsepucky designed to make themselves feel like they are the only 'real' cyclists,
    Last edited by chipcom; 04-25-07 at 08:27 AM.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  4. #4
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    "Vehicular Cyclist" is a brand for HH and Forester to whack over the heads of normal people.

    "vehicular cyclist" is what normal people are who ride bicycles lawfully.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  5. #5
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Towson, MD
    My Bikes
    2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
    Posts
    4,020
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Operates bike as any other vehicle in accordance with the rules of the road.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    upper devonian
    Posts
    896
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It seems to be a form of phobia against clarity and brevity.
    The better question would be: Is this phobia environmentally or biologically determinant?

  7. #7
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Tempe, AZ
    Posts
    2,967
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It depends on who you ask. to some, it's following the rules of the road. to others, it's that plus a bunch of other stuff that has little to do with that.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  8. #8
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by galen_52657
    Operates bike as any other vehicle in accordance with the rules of the road.
    So, how does my disease I have fit in? If I "operate my bike as any other vehicle in accordance with the rules of the road", is this necessary and sufficient for me to be a vehicular cyclist? Despite my disease?

    I mean, I do this. I did this for 100 miles already this week. But yet, I seem to have this disease...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  9. #9
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    HH: If I have this disease (the "cyclist inferiority syndrome" for those of you just entering the discussion), is this enough to precude me from being a Vehicular Cyclist? Even if I follow galen's riding style and ride as any other vehicule in accordance to the rules of the road?

    John Forester? How about your opinion? This is a serious question.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  10. #10
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,353
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Ahh... the phobia. I'd say the cyclist inferiority phobia applies more to HH, JF and others who have these unrealistic fears of paint, lines, parked cars, laws, non-serious cyclists and anything that might make them seem like cyclists, rather than 'vehicles'.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  11. #11
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    HH: If I have this disease (the "cyclist inferiority syndrome" for those of you just entering the discussion), is this enough to precude me from being a Vehicular Cyclist? Even if I follow galen's riding style and ride as any other vehicule in accordance to the rules of the road?

    John Forester? How about your opinion? This is a serious question.
    To be clear, believing that cyclists are inferior does not preclude one from riding vehicularly from time to time, but it makes it all but impossible to be a vehicular cyclist - one who rides on roads vehicularly consistently, and feels comfortable and not "out of place" (your words) when he's doing it.

    EDIT: That is, if you don't feel comfortable and not "out of place" when riding vehicularly, then it's probably impossible to convey the confidence and make the appropriate vehicular-style decisions in real-time traffic required to ride vehicularly consistently. In order to ride vehicularly consistently, you need to have vehicular instincts, if you will, and I don't see how you could have those instincts if you feel inferior and "out of place" when you're out in traffic.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 04-25-07 at 09:36 AM.

  12. #12
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    just curious, before the sophist goes any further,

    how many miles have you cycled on roads this week, mr. head? peloton rides don't count.

    I've put down 85 miles, brian's put down 100, he's likely to do another 50 today.

    who's got the issue of 'not riding in traffic much'?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  13. #13
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    To be clear, believing that cyclists are inferior does not preclude one from riding vehicularly from time to time, but it makes it all but impossible to be a vehicular cyclist - one who rides on roads vehicularly consistently, and feels comfortable and not "out of place" (your words) when he's doing it.

    EDIT: That is, if you don't feel comfortable and not "out of place" when riding vehicularly, then it's probably impossible to convey the confidence and make the appropriate vehicular-style decisions in real-time traffic. In order to ride vehicularly consistently, you need to have vehicular instincts, if you will, and I don't see how you could have those instincts if you feel inferior and "out of place" when you're out in traffic.
    I submit myself as a counter example. Apparently, I have this disease, but I do all the confidence stuff and make all the appropriate "vehicular-style" decisions in real time traffic. Expand on these "vehicular-style" decisions and this "vehicular instinct" you refer to. I swear I have these.

    I ride all the time in all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. All last summer I rode 100-200 miles a week on rural, narrow roads with no shoulders at all during rush hour. I've never made a two part left turn in recent history, I always take to the left turn lane. I've merged into and across multiple lanes of high speed traffic. I've streamed with traffic downtown. I've streamed with traffic in the suburbs too.

    I've read all the books. Everything. How does this remain in keeping with the "fact" that I have this disease?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  14. #14
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    just curious, before the sophist goes any further,

    how many miles have you cycled on roads this week, mr. head? peloton rides don't count.

    I've put down 85 miles, brian's put down 100, he's likely to do another 50 today.

    who's got the issue of 'not riding in traffic much'?
    Naw, day off today to rest the legs today. But 50 more tomorrow. I'm shooting for 200 next week. (I only get to ride 4 days a week; have to run errands on Friday - it's hard to carry 15 cases of 5 dozen eggs on the back of my bike)
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  15. #15
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    my 'complex' is that I'm a vehicular cyclist AND I advocate for bike infrastructure including bike lanes-

    I'm a vehicularist that recognizes bicycling following the law and bike-specific infrastructure like bike lanes are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #16
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,353
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    HH confuses his inferiority phobia with the simple acceptance of the limitiations of being on a bicycle rather than in a motor vehicle. Indeed, if the limitations (and advantages) of a bicycle don't enter into his 'vehicular' decision making, he's a danger to himself and others.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  17. #17
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    I submit myself as a counter example. Apparently, I have this disease, but I do all the confidence stuff and make all the appropriate "vehicular-style" decisions in real time traffic. Expand on these "vehicular-style" decisions and this "vehicular instinct" you refer to. I swear I have these.

    I ride all the time in all sorts of traffic on all sorts of roads. All last summer I rode 100-200 miles a week on rural, narrow roads with no shoulders at all during rush hour. I've never made a two part left turn in recent history, I always take to the left turn lane. I've merged into and across multiple lanes of high speed traffic. I've streamed with traffic downtown. I've streamed with traffic in the suburbs too.

    I've read all the books. Everything. How does this remain in keeping with the "fact" that I have this disease?
    It is not impossible that you're an exception. It's also possible to hide low self-esteem pretty effectively, but usually, sooner or later, it manifests itself one way or another. Arrogance can be such a manifestation.

    It's hard to judge how one rides based on how he writes about it, but I think it gives one an idea. In terms of what you have written, what comes to mind now is the lack of emphasis you place on negotiating for ROW when writing about merging left in busy/fast traffic. You talk about waving one car to go by, and then cutting in, asserting your right to be there without confidently negotiating for it with the next guy. I might be wrong, but this kind of arrogant move seems to reveal a lack of true confidence in your equal right to be on the road.

  18. #18
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    helemt head has 'cyclist full of himself" disorder. stop diagnosing cyclists that ride a HECK OF A LOT MORE and MORE VEHICUARILY than yourself, mr. head. you're stuck on yourself.

    how many miles in traffic this week, mr. head, without a peloton?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #19
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    HH confuses his inferiority phobia with the simple acceptance of the limitiations of being on a bicycle rather than in a motor vehicle. Indeed, if the limitations (and advantages) of a bicycle don't enter into his 'vehicular' decision making, he's a danger to himself and others.
    I think there is some truth to this statement. When I started cycling vehicularly round about 8 or 9 years ago, I bought into all the stock arguments found on the usual websites. Now, with more miles and more experience under my belt, I am finding myself deviating from the "VC line" more and more, even as I am riding more miles in traffic than ever before. Robert Hurst and many of you here also fit this pattern, of riding vehicularly, but not taking the VC line. I mean, look at it. Robert Hurst is probably the most experienced traffic cyclist of all of us here, being that it was his job for, what 15 years or so. He says some stuff coming directly from his experience, and gets chewed on by a part time commuter with a 6 mile commute who only "discovered" vehicular cycling a few years ago.

    I am starting to come of the opinion that I should be listening to the people with the most experience. Not the inexperienced ones defending canned arguments using simplistic logical argumentative techniques. I mean, you, for example, might not win a logical argument, but that doesn't mean that your ideas are wrong. Robert Hurst might be more English Major than Philosophy Major, but it doesn't mean that his ideas are wrong, even if he has to give up against a wall of words attack.

    The VC line, and all this stuff about the VC attitude, is just a delusion, perhaps a useful delusion, to get a cyclist to ride vehicularly. Once vehicular cycling is standard operating procedure for a person, then the delusion is no longer necessary and the "VC attitude" can be dropped, as well as all the political positions which stem from the "VC attitude."
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  20. #20
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    It is not impossible that you're an exception. It's also possible to hide low self-esteem pretty effectively, but usually, sooner or later, it manifests itself one way or another. Arrogance can be such a manifestation.

    It's hard to judge how one rides based on how he writes about it, but I think it gives one an idea. In terms of what you have written, what comes to mind now is the lack of emphasis you place on negotiating for ROW when writing about merging left in busy/fast traffic. You talk about waving one car to go by, and then cutting in, asserting your right to be there without confidently negotiating for it with the next guy. I might be wrong, but this kind of arrogant move seems to reveal a lack of true confidence in your equal right to be on the road.
    Whatever image of me floats your boat.

    No, HH, you've got it wrong. I can create a gap, if necessary; kind of like creating a gap when changing lanes on the freeway. I don't, usually, because it is rude. If there is a gap in traffic, I take it. But if not, I'll create one. Just like in a car.

    BTW, you missed the part where, after I wave the next car through, before it is done passing, I wave the car proceding it back to create a gap. I am basically directing traffic. Like what you do when you throw out your fabled "slow/stop" signal, but more direct about my intentions.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  21. #21
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    HH confuses his inferiority phobia with the simple acceptance of the limitiations of being on a bicycle rather than in a motor vehicle. Indeed, if the limitations (and advantages) of a bicycle don't enter into his 'vehicular' decision making, he's a danger to himself and others.
    It is a common misconception to think vehicular cyclists do not recognize and accept the differences of being on a bicycle rather than driving a motor vehicle. No matter what vehicle you drive, you must take into account the physical and operational characteristics of that vehicle, and that affects your behavior. Bicycles are no different. But one aspect of vehicular cyclists over inferiority thinkers is we don't see these differences as "limitations" (much as blind people don't "see" their blindess as a "limitation", and deaf people don't see not hearing as a "limitation"). The words we all use serve as a window into our core beliefs, and our core beliefs determine our self-image, and, ultimately, our behavior.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ^^^
    So, if the ability to not travel at pace with traffic is not a limitation, then what is it? A difference which makes it difficult to maneuver a bicycle in traffic is a limitation, no? Are you playing word games again?

    BTW, I never heard your take on what makes a Vehicular Cyclist. In your own words now.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  23. #23
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    No, HH, you've got it wrong. I can create a gap, if necessary; kind of like creating a gap when changing lanes on the freeway.
    This is a revealing comment as well. I see little comparison between changing lanes on freeways and merging left in busy traffic while cycling with respect to "creating gaps". When changing lanes on a freeway, signaling is almost useless for creating gaps, and I know of no other method to create one. If I start signalling on a freeway, odds are I will be ignored. Almost always I must speed up or slow down to find a gap in order to change lanes on a busy freeway.

    The exception is in congested traffic on a freeway that is stopped or barely moving. Yes, then, signalling is the only way to change lanes, and it usually works.

    I don't, usually, because it is rude.
    Creating gaps is rude? Requesting someone to yield to you is rude?

    If there is a gap in traffic, I take it. But if not, I'll create one. Just like in a car.
    What you've written about before is taking gaps that are relatively small in which your ROW is not established, because taking that gap forces the next guy to hit the brakes.

    BTW, you missed the part where, after I wave the next car through, before it is done passing, I wave the car proceding it back to create a gap. I am basically directing traffic.
    What I missed was the part where you wait for a sign from them that they are agreeing to yield to you. I missed it then, and I'm missing it now.

    Like what you do when you throw out your fabled "slow/stop" signal, but more direct about my intentions.
    I throw out the slow/stop signal when I have the ROW. That's what's missing from how you describe all this, despite reading "all the books": a vehicular cyclist's recognition and appreciation for the role of ROW in all these scenarios.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 04-25-07 at 10:25 AM.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yes, master. I see if they see my signal and respond. I am not suicidal, of course. ...What an anal retentive jerk. See, you cannot even give me the benefit of the doubt.

    You are a noob, I can see. I don't think you are as skilled as you think you are. I don't think you are as experienced as you think you are. I can tell by the way you talk about this subject. All this bluster is about covering up your inexperience. What is your experience again? What kind of bike do you ride, and how far and where do you ride it? You have a bunch of book knowledge, but not a lot of experience, it seems.

    Again. What makes a Vehicular Cyclist? Isn't it common courtousy to answer the question asked in the OP before going off on a tangent?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  25. #25
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,527
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    HH: I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your experience. Perhaps in error? You talk about it very little. Less than most of us.

    You've been talking down to me continuously for a while. I need some bonifieds from you if this is going to continue.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •