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  1. #26
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    In Galen's, and much of the free world, a Ratliff is a Ratliff.

    (no offense John & Brian, just could not resist making the crack )
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  2. #27
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    The perception is that the roads are dangerous, out-of-control killing fields and walking or being on a bicycle just makes some feel more vulnerable because they don't have that protection of a steel cage around them.
    Sounds about right to me.

    40K roadway deaths per year is nothing to sneeze at. Certainly, motorists are largely responsible, albeit conversely, largely the victims, as well.

    New EPA regulations aimed at reducing arsenic in drinking water will likely cost billions to implement nationally but will save less than 100 people per year by EPA's own calculations.

    Last edited by randya; 04-25-07 at 03:19 PM.

  3. #28
    BF's Level 12 Wizard SingingSabre's Avatar
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    "Cyclist Inferiority Syndrome" is a catchphrase created by either Helmet Head or John Forester to attempt to explain why anyone who rides in a bike lane is actually mentally handicapped.

    EDIT: I would like to point out that neither Forester or HH are qualified to make any diagnoses. Nor am I. But I am able to smell puckey from a mile away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bklyn
    Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    It seems to me that this accusation is thrown around a lot, that someone has this mental disease. What is it exactly? It seams to me that if this is something that everyone has (except the few) that this cannot be a real disease. Perhaps it is simply a code word to separate those who are allowed into the Vehicular Cycling discussion, and those who cannot take part.

    I mean, if everyone has this disease, then it is not a disease, but rather, a real concern. Vehicular Cyclists should address the concern rather than dismissing all those who carry this idea.

    So, the questions:

    1) What is this "disease" and what are the characteristics?

    2) Since everyone has this "disease", how do Vehicular Cyclists promote their ideas in the face of this, besides the 30 year old strategy of simply dismissing people who have this "disease" and their ideas on their face? The 30 year old strategy hasn't worked very well, as the number of people in the VC clique (to separate the VC'ists from those who simply adopt some of the vehicular cycling techniques) remains very, very small after 30 years of trying.
    Are you arguing that the common cold is not a disease, because everybody suffers from it (though not simultaneously)? And how will you describe the next influenza pandemic, when all but a few suffer from it? Will that not be a disease?

    The point of this is that frequency of occurrence does not define a disease. That's all I will write at this time.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    You stated the distinction: not everyone has the common cold continuously and not everyone has it all the time. Even with an influenza pandemic, it doesn't fit the profile of your claimed disease of the mind. Thus, the defining difference between your cyclist inferiority syndrome and a common disease.

    You seem to be expanding the definition of a disease to the point where just living can be called a disease. Something tells me that this is not right though.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  6. #31
    BF's Level 12 Wizard SingingSabre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Are you arguing that the common cold is not a disease, because everybody suffers from it (though not simultaneously)? And how will you describe the next influenza pandemic, when all but a few suffer from it? Will that not be a disease?

    The point of this is that frequency of occurrence does not define a disease. That's all I will write at this time.
    YOU AREN'T A ****ING CLINICIAN. YOU AREN'T A ****ING DOCTOR. YOU CANNOT MAKE UP DISEASES AND MENTAL AILMENTS.

    Get it in your head, man. Crimony.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bklyn
    Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.

  7. #32
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Well, I just want to know when the telethon is that will be raising money to cure our sickness... as a sufferer of the syndrome/superstition/phobia, I want a cure.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  8. #33
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    Well, I just want to know when the telethon is that will be raising money to cure our sickness... as a sufferer of the syndrome/superstition/phobia, I want a cure.
    Just ride in the traffic lane, young Luke, and ye shall be cured.

  9. #34
    pj7
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    Thruth be told. Cycling inferiority is not a syndrome. It is real and alive. And just who in the hell said it was a syndrome? What background do they have to give something such a scientific label? Are they scientists, doctors, people in the mental health profession? Or are they washed up political book authors?
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  10. #35
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    motor vehicles currently occupy the apex of the pinnacle of the road users heirarchy in America. It doesn't have to be that way, it can be changed. But not by following the vehicular cycling fundies.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by pj7
    Thruth be told. Cycling inferiority is not a syndrome. It is real and alive. And just who in the hell said it was a syndrome? What background do they have to give something such a scientific label? Are they scientists, doctors, people in the mental health profession? Or are they washed up political book authors?
    http://bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=88
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  12. #37
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    It seems to me that this accusation is thrown around a lot, that someone has this mental disease. What is it exactly? It seams to me that if this is something that everyone has (except the few) that this cannot be a real disease. Perhaps it is simply a code word to separate those who are allowed into the Vehicular Cycling discussion, and those who cannot take part.

    I mean, if everyone has this disease, then it is not a disease, but rather, a real concern. Vehicular Cyclists should address the concern rather than dismissing all those who carry this idea.

    So, the questions:

    1) What is this "disease" and what are the characteristics?

    2) Since everyone has this "disease", how do Vehicular Cyclists promote their ideas in the face of this, besides the 30 year old strategy of simply dismissing people who have this "disease" and their ideas on their face? The 30 year old strategy hasn't worked very well, as the number of people in the VC clique (to separate the VC'ists from those who simply adopt some of the vehicular cycling techniques) remains very, very small after 30 years of trying.
    My turn.

    Cyclist inferiority is not a disease.



    Nor is it recognized by any psychiatric professional.



    "Cyclist inferiority" is the perception of cyclists as having a lower status than motorists. Capisce?
    No worries

  13. #38
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    "Cyclist inferiority syndrome" is nothing more than a bludgeon for certain people's enemies.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    LBM: Who has this perception? Is acknowledgment that there are inequalities in the performance between bicycles and cars equivilent to "cyclists having a lower status than motorists"? That's what HH charges me of.

    To not have "the perception of cyclists as having a lower status than motorists", does one have to delude oneself that a car which can accelerate to 65 mph at a flick of an ankle doesn't have an advantage over a cyclist which takes a lot of energy to accelerate and tops out at 25 mph? Not to mention the size difference.

    I ride with an acknowledgement of these differences, but not in fear of them. I ride as a full equal to other traffic, but I have an additional burden of watching out for myself because I know that my margin for error is smaller than for other road users. Notice that I didn't say that it was less safe for me out there. It's not like I'm dodging land mines or stray bullets. But my margins for error are definitely smaller.

    All those inferiority phobia experts out there: Is what I just said an indication of cyclist inferiority syndrome?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  15. #40
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    LBM: Who has this perception?
    So my coworkers tell me.

    Brian, the really funny thing is that they occasionally ask me, "Are you still riding your bike?" as if they are waiting for the inevitable.
    No worries

  16. #41
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    LBM: To not have "the perception of cyclists as having a lower status than motorists", does one have to delude oneself that a car which can accelerate to 65 mph at a flick of an ankle doesn't have an advantage over a cyclist which takes a lot of energy to accelerate and tops out at 25 mph? Not to mention the size difference.

    I ride with an acknowledgement of these differences, but not in fear of them. I ride as a full equal to other traffic, but I have an additional burden of watching out for myself because I know that my margin for error is smaller than for other road users. Notice that I didn't say that it was less safe for me out there. It's not like I'm dodging land mines or stray bullets. But my margins for error are definitely smaller.
    exactly right. thank you.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  17. #42
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
    So my coworkers tell me.

    Brian, the really funny thing is that they occasionally ask me, "Are you still riding your bike?" as if they are waiting for the inevitable.
    You should be happy they are concerned about your safety, even if that concern is misguided. Instead you sound resentful.

    My co-workers (I only have 3) have thought at times I was taking risks, particularly my boss. My SO used to think this too. But after commuting several times a week most of the year, I don't get comments about it anymore. I mean, it cannot be that dangerous if I keep getting to work safely.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  18. #43
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    LBM: Who has this perception? Is acknowledgment that there are inequalities in the performance between bicycles and cars equivilent to "cyclists having a lower status than motorists"? That's what HH charges me of.

    To not have "the perception of cyclists as having a lower status than motorists", does one have to delude oneself that a car which can accelerate to 65 mph at a flick of an ankle doesn't have an advantage over a cyclist which takes a lot of energy to accelerate and tops out at 25 mph? Not to mention the size difference.

    I ride with an acknowledgement of these differences, but not in fear of them. I ride as a full equal to other traffic, but I have an additional burden of watching out for myself because I know that my margin for error is smaller than for other road users. Notice that I didn't say that it was less safe for me out there. It's not like I'm dodging land mines or stray bullets. But my margins for error are definitely smaller.

    All those inferiority phobia experts out there: Is what I just said an indication of cyclist inferiority syndrome?
    Not that I am a clinician; but if you want a layman's point of view you don't suffer from any complex or whatever people are calling it now.

    But if the notion that bicycles do not belong on busy roads without facilities combined with that it is "very" dangerous to ride on those roads defines someone as having this complex, then I would say a majority of people suffer from it. Moreover, when I ride with a local group of average cyclists, I would say that the second clause is probably true among a majority of them.

    EDIT: These, of course, are just anecdotal observations.

  19. #44
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    You should be happy they are concerned about your safety, even if that concern is misguided. Instead you sound resentful.

    My co-workers (I only have 3...
    I have dozens, mostly black women who love me to death.

    Resentful of that?

    Thank goodness I'm married, I don't know how I'd juggle all these women.
    No worries

  20. #45
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    ^^^
    One thing that clouds this subject is that "safety" is confused with "margin of error." The "danger" doesn't refer to dodging bullets or random chances of getting hit. The "danger" refers to a lowered margin of error. The second version of "danger" is most definitely true. The former is not true in various degrees, depending on the environment.

    Now, we have ways of dealing with the decreased margin of error. It includes a blend of preemptive maneuvers, like taking the lane and making eye contact and such, and it includes a certain vigilence. Many non-cyclists don't understand our methods; but it means that they are ignorant, not that they have a complex. That some cyclists don't understand some of these concepts is just a matter of experience.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  21. #46
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
    I have dozens, mostly black women who love me to death.

    Resentful of that?

    Thank goodness I'm married, I don't know how I'd juggle all these women.
    Good, good.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  22. #47
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Just ride in the traffic lane, young Luke, and ye shall be cured.
    Wrong!

    Buy the book!

    The cure as well as salvation is only found through purchase of Forester Brand training regimens.

  23. #48
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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  24. #49
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    I have...usually in the exact situation you outlined - moving into a RTOL to allow faster traffic to pass, then moving back into the through lane.
    This may happen on rare occasions when the operator is feeling generous. However, there is a big difference between butting your way back into traffic with a 30-ton self-propelled crane and a bicycle.....

  25. #50
    Senior Member John C. Ratliff's Avatar
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    I wrote this for the Stripes II thread, but think it applies here too, and may get lost there:

    ...Cyclists have a superior ability to adapt that auto drivers do not. They can go places that autos cannot, follow paths that autos cannot. So why restrict them to roads when there are good alternatives for them to use. Are we so hung up on "rights" that we forget the gifts that a bicycle gives us? Autos are causing major problems in America and the world today. I cited the crashes, killing tens of thousands of people a year, maiming people for life, and causing other underlying health problems (contributing to obesity and heart disease, for instance). I almost forgot the contribution of pollution and global warming, which are also major problems caused by auto traffic. Why should I feel inferior to an auto driver when I am in better health, have better fitness, and will probably outlive those auto drivers, especially the ones with road rage who have no outlet physically for their stress hormones? But that does not mean that I would trade the advantages of a bike to go places where the auto cannot go for the ego trip of saying I'm riding vehicularly. That, to me, makes no sense at all...
    John
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