Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > > >

Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-25-07, 02:25 PM   #1
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The Four Types of Cyclists

This is a description used by the City of Portland to categorize cyclists. It is discussed in a BikePorland.org thread here

Quote:
Originally Posted by City of Portland
The Strong and Fearless
The “Strong and the Fearless” comprise perhaps 2,000 or fewer cyclists in Portland, representing well less than 0.5% of the population. These are the people who will ride in Portland regardless of roadway conditions. They are ‘bicyclists” riding is a strong part of their identity and they are generally undeterred by roadway conditions—though likely few are courageous enough to venture too far up West Burnside into the West Hills.

The Enthused and the Confident
The “Enthused and the Confident” are those who have been attracted to cycling in Portland by the significant advances the city has made developing its bikeway network and supporting infrastructure over the past 16 years. They are comfortable sharing the roadway with automotive traffic, but they prefer to do so operating on their own facilities.

There are perhaps now more than 15,000 of this group riding their bicycles regularly in the city, comprising perhaps 25,000 Portland citizens, or 5% of the population.

The Interested But Concerned
A much larger demographic, representing the vast majority of Portland’s citizens, are the “interested but concerned.” These residents are curious about bicycling. They are hearing messages from a wide variety of sources about how easy it is to ride a bicycle in Portland, about how bicycling is booming in the city, about “bicycle culture” in Portland, about Portland being a “bicycle-friendly” city, and about the need for people to lead more active lives. They would like to ride more. But, they are afraid to ride.

There are probably 300,000 in this group (with perhaps 2,000 who ride regularly), representing 60% of the city’s population. They would ride if they felt safer on the roadways—if cars were slower and less frequent, and if there were more quiet streets with few cars and paths without any cars at all.

No Way, No How
Perhaps one-third of the city’s population falls into the last category of ‘cyclist.’ This is the “no way, no how” group who is currently not interested in bicycling at all, for reasons of topography, inability, or simply a complete and utter lack of interest.
By my estimation, the true die-hard Vehicular Cyclists represent the 0.5% of cyclists comprising 'the strong and the fearless'; the remainder of the cyclists and potential cyclists fall into the next two categories. Just another way of saying that the VC crowd are a small, elitist minority and that, if you want to truly get more people riding bikes, you need to provide more than a motor vehicle-filled streetscape for them to work with.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 02:47 PM   #2
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,748
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by randya
This is a description used by the City of Portland to categorize cyclists. It is discussed in a BikePorland.org thread here



By my estimation, the true die-hard Vehicular Cyclists represent the 0.5% of cyclists comprising 'the strong and the fearless'; the remainder of the cyclists and potential cyclists fall into the next two categories. Just another way of saying that the VC crowd are a small, elitist minority and that, if you want to truly get more people riding bikes, you need to provide more than a motor vehicle-filled streetscape for them to work with.
The "die-hard Vehicular Cyclists" who post on this list may think their words make them strong and fearless but electrons and paper are cheap. Where do the poor, especially day workers and immigrants, and youth fit into this evaluation? Also I doubt that the so-called "die-hard Vehicular Cyclists" represent very many of the cyclists who are strong and fearless and actually ride every day, no matter what the weather for transportational purposes.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 03:18 PM   #3
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I certainly have no idea whether the VC crowd that posts here actually are strong and fearless cyclists or just a bunch of hot air, although according to the law of averages, probably a bit of each.

The real strong and fearless riders are probably real bike messengers who are actually out riding their bikes all day long for a living, and not a bunch of weekend Club Fred wannabes.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 03:24 PM   #4
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
A good number of the folks I see cycling round here are not at all vehicular and demonstrate great quantities of fearlessness and/or should be more fearful considering what they are doing.

What about the Enthused and Confident who are attracted to cycling for other reasons besides facilities? I think I fit that category where I live.

Al
noisebeam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 03:26 PM   #5
SingingSabre 
BF's Level 12 Wizard
 
SingingSabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: Diamondback Sorrento turned Xtracycle commuter
Posts: 1,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm willing to bet that the VC jihadists aren't as strong and fearless as they say they are.

Myself, I'm enthused and confident.
__________________
Shameless plug (my sites):
Work
Photography
Vanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bklyn
Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.
SingingSabre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 03:29 PM   #6
LCI_Brian
Senior Member
 
LCI_Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the hills of Orange, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So where did the city get the percentages?
LCI_Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 03:37 PM   #7
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There were some surveys done, I think the BikePortland.org story has the description somewhere either in the article or in the comments.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 03:58 PM   #8
pj7
On Sabbatical
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My group the STFU And Ride Your Damned Bike crowd is not in there.
pj7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 04:17 PM   #9
closetbiker
Senior Member
 
closetbiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 9,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Bruce Mol of CanBike has an interesting approach to categorize cyclists.

His basic premise is of two axes -- level of skills & knowledge (SK), and level of social responsibility (SR). I think these are best considered as tendencies, not hard categories.

High SK/Low SR = "Volatile" cyclist. Fast,physically skilled (but probably doesn't have a real good handle on vehicular cycling principles), low trust of motorists, little regard for the law, somewhat predictable, but doesn't play well with others in traffic.

Low SK/Low SR = "Vagabond" cyclist. Rides on sidewalks, no lights, no regard for the law, zero
trust of motorists, totally unpredictable.

Low SK/High SR = "Vigilant" cyclist. Wants to do the right thing but is very fearful in traffic, low trust of motorists, often rides on sidewalks. Eager to learn.

High SK/High SR = "Veloquent" cyclist. Has the skills and knowledge to move smoothly and comfortably in traffic, trusts motorists to behave properly most of the time, but knows how to deal with it when they don't.

The "vigilant" cyclists are the best candidates for bike-ed programs.
closetbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 04:19 PM   #10
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by City of Portland
The Strong and Fearless
The “Strong and the Fearless” comprise perhaps 2,000 or fewer cyclists in Portland, representing well less than 0.5% of the population. These are the people who will ride in Portland regardless of roadway conditions. They are ‘bicyclists” riding is a strong part of their identity and they are generally undeterred by roadway conditions—though likely few are courageous enough to venture too far up West Burnside into the West Hills.

The Enthused and the Confident
The “Enthused and the Confident” are those who have been attracted to cycling in Portland by the significant advances the city has made developing its bikeway network and supporting infrastructure over the past 16 years. They are comfortable sharing the roadway with automotive traffic, but they prefer to do so operating on their own facilities.

There are perhaps now more than 15,000 of this group riding their bicycles regularly in the city, comprising perhaps 25,000 Portland citizens, or 5% of the population.

The Interested But Concerned
A much larger demographic, representing the vast majority of Portland’s citizens, are the “interested but concerned.” These residents are curious about bicycling. They are hearing messages from a wide variety of sources about how easy it is to ride a bicycle in Portland, about how bicycling is booming in the city, about “bicycle culture” in Portland, about Portland being a “bicycle-friendly” city, and about the need for people to lead more active lives. They would like to ride more. But, they are afraid to ride.

There are probably 300,000 in this group (with perhaps 2,000 who ride regularly), representing 60% of the city’s population. They would ride if they felt safer on the roadways—if cars were slower and less frequent, and if there were more quiet streets with few cars and paths without any cars at all.

No Way, No How
Perhaps one-third of the city’s population falls into the last category of ‘cyclist.’ This is the “no way, no how” group who is currently not interested in bicycling at all, for reasons of topography, inability, or simply a complete and utter lack of interest.

===================

This is exactly the picture that one would expect when describing a society in which cyclists are considered inferior to cars, trespassers on the roadways, incapable of cycling safely. That society is exactly what is wrong. "They are afraid to ride ... would ride if they felt safer on the roadways ..." And what does Portland do to make cycling safer? It builds bikeways that make people feel safer without in any way actually making cycling safer, which requires better cycling behavior, vehicular cycling. Since Portland has been brought up again, we ought to go back to the blue-painted bike lanes, which are painted blue precisely because the bike lane directs cyclists across the paths of motorists. If Portland were to make a real effort to correct the situation, it would emphasize a program of getting better cyclist behavior and of making such improvements as make vehicular cycling easier and safer.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 04:31 PM   #11
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Bikes: 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2014 Islabikes CNOC 14 (son's)
Posts: 10,126
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by randya
This is a description used by the City of Portland to categorize cyclists. It is discussed in a BikePorland.org thread here



By my estimation, the true die-hard Vehicular Cyclists represent the 0.5% of cyclists comprising 'the strong and the fearless'; the remainder of the cyclists and potential cyclists fall into the next two categories. Just another way of saying that the VC crowd are a small, elitist minority and that, if you want to truly get more people riding bikes, you need to provide more than a motor vehicle-filled streetscape for them to work with.
How do bike lanes do away with a "motor vehicle-filled streetscape?" How exactly does wanting to ride according to the basic rules of the road for your own safety make one an "elitist?"
joejack951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 04:38 PM   #12
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
...we ought to go back to the blue-painted bike lanes, which are painted blue precisely because the bike lane directs cyclists across the paths of motorists. If Portland were to make a real effort to correct the situation, it would emphasize a program of getting better cyclist behavior and of making such improvements as make vehicular cycling easier and safer.
John's worst nightmare: Bikeways....so unsafe....must be painted blue....


Last edited by randya; 04-25-07 at 04:58 PM.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 04:56 PM   #13
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
This is exactly the picture that one would expect when describing a society in which cyclists are considered inferior to cars, trespassers on the roadways, incapable of cycling safely. That society is exactly what is wrong. "They are afraid to ride ... would ride if they felt safer on the roadways ..." And what does Portland do to make cycling safer? It builds bikeways that make people feel safer without in any way actually making cycling safer, which requires better cycling behavior, vehicular cycling. Since Portland has been brought up again, we ought to go back to the blue-painted bike lanes, which are painted blue precisely because the bike lane directs cyclists across the paths of motorists. If Portland were to make a real effort to correct the situation, it would emphasize a program of getting better cyclist behavior and of making such improvements as make vehicular cycling easier and safer.
I agree in one aspect...if they were serious they would make the roads safer for all vehicles rather than just adding infrastructure for cyclists. The societal problem is twofold - the perception that cars are the only legitimate users of the road (versus any perception specifically that bicycles are inferior), and a general perception that the roads are just plain dangerous for everyone. You'll never convince the general public or mainstream cyclists that the roads are safe for them when they don't even feel the roads are safe for them in their cars. Changing cyclist behavior is a fool's game because it is limited to a small percentage of cyclists and and even smaller percentage of the general population - you wanna make a change you gotta attack the root issue - the attitude and perceptions of the general and motoring population. As long as you and others concentrate on the cyclist...indeed blaming the cyclist while excusing the bad behavior of the general motoring population, you're pissing in the wind.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 05:42 PM   #14
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,715
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 324 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipcom
I agree in one aspect...if they were serious they would make the roads safer for all vehicles rather than just adding infrastructure for cyclists. The societal problem is twofold - the perception that cars are the only legitimate users of the road (versus any perception specifically that bicycles are inferior), and a general perception that the roads are just plain dangerous for everyone. You'll never convince the general public or mainstream cyclists that the roads are safe for them when they don't even feel the roads are safe for them in their cars. Changing cyclist behavior is a fool's game because it is limited to a small percentage of cyclists and and even smaller percentage of the general population - you wanna make a change you gotta attack the root issue - the attitude and perceptions of the general and motoring population. As long as you and others concentrate on the cyclist...indeed blaming the cyclist while excusing the bad behavior of the general motoring population, you're pissing in the wind.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:03 PM   #15
LittleBigMan
Sumanitu taka owaci
 
LittleBigMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Bikes:
Posts: 8,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't want to speak against Portland or any other city (except maybe my own, but only when it deserves it.)

All I can say is that I've ridden for over 10 years in Atlanta, Bicycling Magazine's Frankenstein monster for it's "unfriendliness" to cyclists. I have plenty of choices for riding. Among them:

1) A sidewalk-style bike path that snakes it's way from near my home to downtown Atlanta, which would take almost 2 hours to ride

2) The direct route I took when I drove my car, which by car takes 40 minutes, by bicycle, 60 minutes, which has about a mile of bike lane in the entire 15 miles

3) Other similarly direct routes which don't use bike lanes or paths

Of these, I absolutely love and enjoy the standard routes. They are lovely, simple, free, and totally enjoyable, not to mention I don't have to leave for work at 5 am. On one route, I get to see the regular morning parking lot fiasco on the freeway as I breeze over it on a quiet, residential street.

I started my cycling on the bike path route. Even before I had any experience, this route was frustrating, slow, pedestrians waiting at bus stops refused to let me pass, I had to stop at blind driveways covered by shrubbery and at every silly driveway stop sign, and I got home so late my family wondered if I still lived there.

But that's not Portland, that's Atlanta. I love riding here, it's the only place I know.
__________________
No worries

Last edited by LittleBigMan; 04-25-07 at 06:47 PM.
LittleBigMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:21 PM   #16
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by randya
John's worst nightmare: Bikeways....so unsafe....must be painted blue....

Humorous, is it, to direct cyclists directly across a stream of motor traffic? Those are the places that I criticize most strongly. The fact that you cannot understand the danger is just another example of the mental problem that I have been describing.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:23 PM   #17
SingingSabre 
BF's Level 12 Wizard
 
SingingSabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Bikes: Diamondback Sorrento turned Xtracycle commuter
Posts: 1,425
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
This is exactly the picture that one would expect when describing a society in which cyclists are considered inferior to cars, trespassers on the roadways, incapable of cycling safely. That society is exactly what is wrong. "They are afraid to ride ... would ride if they felt safer on the roadways ..." And what does Portland do to make cycling safer? It builds bikeways that make people feel safer without in any way actually making cycling safer, which requires better cycling behavior, vehicular cycling. Since Portland has been brought up again, we ought to go back to the blue-painted bike lanes, which are painted blue precisely because the bike lane directs cyclists across the paths of motorists. If Portland were to make a real effort to correct the situation, it would emphasize a program of getting better cyclist behavior and of making such improvements as make vehicular cycling easier and safer.
You're taking the opinion of the vast minority (motorists who think we're trespassers on the roadways) and applying it to everyone.

John, have you ridden your bike in Portland?
__________________
Shameless plug (my sites):
Work
Photography
Vanity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bklyn
Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.
SingingSabre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:24 PM   #18
Helmet Head
Banned.
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The blue lanes provide a nice contrast to the streams of bright red cyclist blood coursing through them.
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:30 PM   #19
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The blue lanes provide a nice contrast to the streams of bright red cyclist blood coursing through them.
Funny man.

See how quick you are in bringing fearmongering into the discussion? Didn't we talk about this earlier?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:30 PM   #20
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipcom
I agree in one aspect...if they were serious they would make the roads safer for all vehicles rather than just adding infrastructure for cyclists. The societal problem is twofold - the perception that cars are the only legitimate users of the road (versus any perception specifically that bicycles are inferior), and a general perception that the roads are just plain dangerous for everyone. You'll never convince the general public or mainstream cyclists that the roads are safe for them when they don't even feel the roads are safe for them in their cars. Changing cyclist behavior is a fool's game because it is limited to a small percentage of cyclists and and even smaller percentage of the general population - you wanna make a change you gotta attack the root issue - the attitude and perceptions of the general and motoring population. As long as you and others concentrate on the cyclist...indeed blaming the cyclist while excusing the bad behavior of the general motoring population, you're pissing in the wind.
If the American population was as frightened of motoring as it is of cycling, there would be similar statistics, and we would not have the congestion problems that we have. What we would have is unanswerable, (as is any "what if" question), but unanswerable because our cities would never have developed as they have. If typical motorists were as incompetent as typical cyclists, the situation would also be very different; many fewer motorists, of course.

My aim is to do as much as I can to protect the status and safety and convenience of those persons who choose to cycle. That doesn't really require changing the minds of all the motorists, but it does require acceptance by those who lead that vehicular cycling is the proper way to cycle on the roadways. I say that that is a far more admirable goal than is enticing people onto bicycles with the false promise that bikeways will make them safe.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:31 PM   #21
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
^^^
You've had 30 years. How're you doing on that front?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:34 PM   #22
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
Humorous, is it, to direct cyclists directly across a stream of motor traffic? Those are the places that I criticize most strongly. The fact that you cannot understand the danger is just another example of the mental problem that I have been describing.
John, I fully understand the danger of directing cyclists across motor vehicle traffic. The fact is that the blue bike lanes make the best of a poorly designed roadway for cyclists (freeway-style off ramp on a local street), and there is frequently a steady stream of cyclists crossing very light motor vehicle traffic at this location (eastside eastbound Hawthorne bridge viaduct) during peak hours. The truth is that the blue bike lanes are as safe as they can be given the poor underlying design of the roadway for cyclists, and there is no crash data to suggest that this road, or any other location with the blue bike lanes, is in any way less safe than the same road without any cyclist-specific infrastructure.

I once again repeat my challenge: Can you name one location in the US where on a daily basis thousands of cyclists safely use any bridge approach or bridge viaduct without the provision of any cycling-specific infrastructure?

Last edited by randya; 04-25-07 at 06:41 PM.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:34 PM   #23
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingingSabre
You're taking the opinion of the vast minority (motorists who think we're trespassers on the roadways) and applying it to everyone.

John, have you ridden your bike in Portland?
Of course, I've cycled in Portland; I've said so before this.

It doesn't matter just what is the proportion of motorists who think bicycles are incompetent trespassers on their roads. The point is that our society and our governments base their program about bicycle transportation on precisely that view. Oh, they say otherwise, and naive people believe that, but just look at what the bikeway program does; its only real function, that which it was designed to do, is to shove cyclists aside.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:43 PM   #24
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The blue lanes provide a nice contrast to the streams of bright red cyclist blood coursing through them.
You and John both know less than nothing about the safety of, or crash rates associated with, the blue bike lanes.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-07, 06:48 PM   #25
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Bikes: who cares?
Posts: 13,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
If the American population was as frightened of motoring as it is of cycling, there would be similar statistics, and we would not have the congestion problems that we have. What we would have is unanswerable, (as is any "what if" question), but unanswerable because our cities would never have developed as they have. If typical motorists were as incompetent as typical cyclists, the situation would also be very different; many fewer motorists, of course.

My aim is to do as much as I can to protect the status and safety and convenience of those persons who choose to cycle. That doesn't really require changing the minds of all the motorists, but it does require acceptance by those who lead that vehicular cycling is the proper way to cycle on the roadways. I say that that is a far more admirable goal than is enticing people onto bicycles with the false promise that bikeways will make them safe.
Motorists are as incompetent as *****, the only thing that prevents them from killing more than 40K of their fellow motorists each year are the steel cages they enclose themselves in. Because motoring is so commonplace, the risks associated with motoring are viewed as acceptable by most people, despite the relatively high degree of hazard associated with motoring. Can you tell me what the leading cause of death among young adults is, John?

The motorists are the ones that need to be educated, John, not the cyclists.
randya is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:01 AM.