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  1. #101
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    I just received an email that says:


    You can find his keynote from the summit in pdf form at this URL. Seems there are some real data out there for anyone who cares about reality anymore. Perhaps you would be interested in reading some of it firsthand:
    http://www.policy.rutgers.edu/faculty/pucher.html


    P.S. I love where he says in his keynote, "Only when cycling attracts women is it really a success!" Got that right!
    Hey I wonder why the American Dream Coalition didn't invite John Pucher, Ph.D. to join their group or speak at their gatherings. Ph.D eh?

    Could it be that the ADC doesn't give a rats butt about such things as:
    • How to promote safe walking and cycling in the USA on the basis of successful policies in Canada and Europe.
    • Public health impacts of land use and transportation policies.
    • Multi-modal coordination of public transport services and fares throughout metropolitan areas and integration of non-motorized modes (bicycling and walking) into the overall urban transport system.


    No, they prefer speakers that suggest "...bicycle transportation will form only a small niche in a transportation picture that is dominated by private motor transportation." --J. Forester. http://www.americandreamcoalition.org/forester.pdf

  2. #102
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    You got that right, Gene! This is why I'm totally against the JF and the VCers, but not against vehicular cycling. But they can't understand this.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  3. #103
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    JF-style VC: You too can become a human speed bump! Just read my book and ignore all the angry, impatient and aggressive motorists!

    FWIW - I did finally put JF on ignore, after the umpteenth time he basically ignored what I was saying and accused me once again of having 'cyclist inferiority syndrome.'


  4. #104
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    JF-style VC: You too can become a human speed bump! Just read my book and ignore all the angry, impatient and aggressive motorists!

    FWIW - I did finally put JF on ignore, after the umpteenth time he basically ignored what I was saying and accused me once again of having 'cyclist inferiority syndrome.'

    You're not alone, he accuses everyone who does not agree with his doctrine. I think we should start a support group for those that have been accused of this by JF & HH.

    I'll start a thread on it.

  5. #105
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    No, they prefer speakers that suggest "...bicycle transportation will form only a small niche in a transportation picture that is dominated by private motor transportation." --J. Forester. http://www.americandreamcoalition.org/forester.pdf
    You say this like it's an obviously outrageous statement.

    I started a thread in A&S (since it's a general advocacy issue and not VC specific) with a poll on the topic.

    Will U.S. cycling ever form more than a small niche?

  6. #106
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    In addition to John Pucher, there are other individuals and organizations working for a more sustainable future with more equitable transporatation choices than the American Dream Coalition and John Forester; off the top of my head, they include the Victoria Transportation Policy Institute, Redefining Progress, Right of Way, Charles Komanoff, Jim Kunstler, Michael Bluejay and many others.

    Except for exposing JF as the hack for the status quo that he has become, and incorporating the kernel of good advice that he gave out on cycling a long time ago, we should all put him and his wacky social theories on ignore and move on to more positive work ensuring the sustainability and equality of our society into the new post-oil century.
    Last edited by randya; 05-04-07 at 01:36 PM.

  7. #107
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I don't know John ... I think that there are a lot of shades of grey between the stark contrasts you portray regarding an empirical truth of safe cycling, optimal advocacy strategy and a whole host of related topics.

    In large, I think John is right about the safest way to cycle with speed. I write "in large" since many traffic environments have their physical quirks and motorist sensibilities with respect to cyclists seem to differ across geography. I believe that these factors can be important. Although, as everyone seems to agree, I can't prove this.

    However, I don't see a strict VC strategy working for ... say my mom ... trying to get from home, to the park, picking up something from the local grocery, and back. In other words, an important phrase in the second paragraph is "safest way to cycle with speed." I just don't see NYC motorists making my mom's move from the right hand side of Francis Lewis Blvd to the left lane in order to make a left hand turn onto 34th Ave easy. I don't see motorists making her ride down the outside lane easy either (no shoulder). So given that she is going to do a little around town riding, my guess is that she would be better off with some facilities. Also, it isn't clear to me where the cutoff between safer to ride VC among traffic versus an alternative strategy. I can say that I am far more comfortable dealing with the fairly predictable motorists than with unpredictable pedestrians.

    Refering to an argument with Bek and Randya regarding bike lanes with painted purple, I am skeptical that these lanes are safer than simply taking the lane in the flow of traffic. But they could be. And it could be the case that the bike lanes more than compensate waiting times at such intersections by having a better traffic flow elsewhere and better cyclist/motorist interactions. I would like to see specific statistics on these purple zones (or whatever color they were painted) to do a better evaluation. But I don't think that the empirical or theoretical evidence is strong enough to prevent their trial. Moreover, paint can always be removed.

    Over at Chainguard, there was a recent series of posts where a gentleman asked about some bike lane studies. From what I gather from a quick read and others' comments, the true marginal effect of bike lanes is obfuscated by simultaneous changes made to the street/traffic design (among other complaints). Regardless, the studies support the notion that the net effect of these changes increased cycling safety. I read little on travel times and the magnitude of injuries/collisions. But if one cares about the bottom line, does allocating resources to more "cycling friendly" facilities increase safety and the acceptability of cyclists by the larger motorist population, then pursuing such a strategy seems appropriate.

    Given that John mentioned it, I don't know what ILTB believes or advocates. I have not seen many posts along those lines.

    Anyway, I have to return to work.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    In addition to John Pucher, there are other individuals and organizations working for a more sustainable future with more equitable transporatation choices than the American Dream Coalition and John Forester; off the top of my head, they include the Victoria Transportation Policy Institute, Redefining Progress, Right of Way, Charles Komanoff, Jim Kunstler, Michael Bluejay and many others.

    Except for exposing JF as the hack for the status quo that he has become, and incorporating the kernel of good advice that he gave out on cycling a long time ago, we should all put him and his wacky social theories on ignore and move on to more positive work ensuring the sustainability and equality of our society into the new post-oil century.
    I know much of the works of the people and organizations cited above. I think that one can reasonably describe all of them as anti-motoring, but that is not the relevant issue here. The issue is whether or not the person or organization advocates doing good for cyclists. Of those above, I think it reasonable to say that only Michael Bluejay is actively doing good for cyclists. Tod Litman's VTPI attempts to consider transportation in general, with the intention of advocating for modes other than motoring, but when he considers cycling he goes for popularity rather than safety and convenience. Redefining Progress is a purely environmental organization with no expertise in bicycle transportation. Right of Way is virulently anti-motorist without understanding what's best for cyclists. Charles Komanoff has been known for years as one who makes major mistakes about bicycling accidents. Kunstler, of course, is nothing but an opponent of suburbia with no knowledge of bicycle transportation. Pucher is the only one that has had academic papers published, but his conclusions have been shown to be unfounded by normal scientific standards.

    I repeat, the issue is not anti-motoring environmentalism, which may be very attractive, but the fact that all of these that are relevant to bicycle transportation (except possibly Bluejay) advocate the cyclist-inferiority bikeway system that is harmful to cyclists. It would be greatly refreshing to see an environmentalist advocate doing what is best for cyclists rather than what suits motorists.

  9. #109
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Where I live, motorists don't want bike lanes, and I still fail to see where the absurd idea that motorists want bike lanes comes from.

    Anyway, I'd certainly settle for sharrows markings, an enhanced and escalated motorist reeducation effort, and retraining of cops and traffic engineers. Do you have a problem with this, too, AJ, or would you throw your support behind it?

  10. #110
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    You say this like it's an obviously outrageous statement.
    Well they certainly do not sound like positive and encouraging words about cycling...

    More like words to encourage the motoring industry to "just keep on truckin'... "

    In fact the more I read Forester, the more I get the feeling of "that's how it is, so just suck it up and live with it."

  11. #111
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    "that's how it is, so just suck it up and live with it."
    I think you've pretty much nailed it!


  12. #112
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    You say this like it's an obviously outrageous statement.

    I started a thread in A&S (since it's a general advocacy issue and not VC specific) with a poll on the topic.

    Will U.S. cycling ever form more than a small niche?
    And we all know how accurate the results of such a poll are...


  13. #113
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    And we all know how accurate the results of such a poll are...

    Accurate with respect to what?

    I think they're very accurate with respect to letting us know how forum members voted on the relevant issue.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Where I live, motorists don't want bike lanes, and I still fail to see where the absurd idea that motorists want bike lanes comes from.

    Anyway, I'd certainly settle for sharrows markings, an enhanced and escalated motorist reeducation effort, and retraining of cops and traffic engineers. Do you have a problem with this, too, AJ, or would you throw your support behind it?
    The motoring establishment invented, promoted, and designed bike lanes. That is historical fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Where I live, motorists don't want bike lanes, and I still fail to see where the absurd idea that motorists want bike lanes comes from.

    Anyway, I'd certainly settle for sharrows markings, an enhanced and escalated motorist reeducation effort, and retraining of cops and traffic engineers. Do you have a problem with this, too, AJ, or would you throw your support behind it?
    Why don't you include training for cyclists, who would be the most direct beneficiaries?

  16. #116
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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  17. #117
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Why don't you include training for cyclists, who would be the most direct beneficiaries?
    Sure, but IMO motorist training is significantly more important, based on the much greater harm that can be done by an improperly trained motorist than by an improperly trained cyclist.

  18. #118
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    The motoring establishment invented, promoted, and designed bike lanes. That is historical fact.
    None the less, I don't see any actual motorists in my community supporting bike lanes, oin fact many motorist are quite outspoken against bike lanes. I see only see cyclists and transportation officials supporting them.

  19. #119
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Sure, but IMO motorist training is significantly more important, based on the much greater harm that can be done by an improperly trained motorist than by an improperly trained cyclist.
    I disagree.

    An improperly trained cyclist can easily get killed even by a properly trained motorist.

    A properly trained cyclist can easily avoid getting killed despite the inevitable encounters with many improperly trained motorists out there.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-04-07 at 06:30 PM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    None the less, I don't see any actual motorists in my community supporting bike lanes, oin fact many motorist are quite outspoken against bike lanes. I see only see cyclists and transportation officials supporting them.
    Of course. The many motorists who vote for bike lanes (surely there must be many in Portland) don't have to say a word, because the bicycle advocates are carrying their water for them. It has been this way ever since the environmentalists took over the bikeway advocacy. The motorists whom you hear are those who feel either against environmentalist bicycle advocacy, or have some particular location where the bike lane gives them difficulty, or, quite possibly, they know, just as I do, that bike lanes complicate the traffic pattern in ways contrary to the rules of the road. Today, it takes a bit of social courage to make such statements.

  21. #121
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Five minutes to Wapner

  22. #122
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I disagree.

    An improperly trained cyclist can easily get killed even by a properly trained motorist.

    A properly trained cyclist can easily avoid getting killed despite the inevitable many improperly trained motorists out there.
    #1 blames the victim, #2 assumes superhuman characteristics for trained cyclists.

    Even Lance Armstrong can be the victim of an aggressive motorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bluejay
    Motorists frequently face no consequences for injuring or killing cyclists in Austin. What does it take for a cyclist to get action taken against a hostile motorist? Well, if recent news is any indication, it takes being local sports cycling celebrity Lance Armstrong.

    In a front page story [Dec. 15, 1998], the Austin American-Statesman reported that Michael Carter ran Armstrong and two cycling buddies off Volente Road near Lake Travis. After buzzing the cyclists with his car, the cyclists yelled at him. Carter then made a U-turn and aimed his car straight at them, throwing Armstrong head-first over his handlebars to avoid being hit.

    That same day, Carter was charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon for the attack.

    Consequence to the motorist: Surprisingly, Carter was sentenced to 10 years in prison for the attack, marking the first time we know of that a motorist in Austin has faced punishment for harming or threatening a cyclist. Let's see if this ever happens again when the cyclist doesn't happen to be a celebrated local hero.

  23. #123
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Of course. The many motorists who vote for bike lanes (surely there must be many in Portland) don't have to say a word, because the bicycle advocates are carrying their water for them. It has been this way ever since the environmentalists took over the bikeway advocacy. The motorists whom you hear are those who feel either against environmentalist bicycle advocacy, or have some particular location where the bike lane gives them difficulty, or, quite possibly, they know, just as I do, that bike lanes complicate the traffic pattern in ways contrary to the rules of the road. Today, it takes a bit of social courage to make such statements.
    You sure are good at twisting things around, aren't you?

  24. #124
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I disagree.

    An improperly trained cyclist can easily get killed even by a properly trained motorist.

    A properly trained cyclist can easily avoid getting killed despite the inevitable many improperly trained motorists out there.
    Yes but compare how many people an improperly trained cyclist may kill vice how many people an improperly trained motorist can kill.

    As an example... imagine for a minute that you are a 60+ year old resident outside of a farmers market in LA on your bicycle... and your foot slips... and you careen toward that farmers market. Just how many shoppers do you think you might kill, wound or maim?

  25. #125
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Let's see, careen into a farmer's market on my bicycle? Kill a pear, a tomato, and maybe a potted plant? Careen into a farmer's market in a station wagon...Well. That's quite different! Yep, we better train those killer cyclists, but leave them motorists alone!
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

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