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  1. #26
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    "On the side by Five to stay alive".

  2. #27
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    "cars don't kill Cyclists, car doors kill Cyclists."

  3. #28
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    5 feet from what to what? The bike tire to the side of the Accord?

    The entire lane is probably 12 feet from the yellow stripe to the side of the parked car. The BLVD symbol is probably about 8' wide (with about 2' of space on each side). To be 5 feet from the Accord, he would have to be a foot to the right of the center of the lane. He's way to the right of the that. I'd say his tire is no more than 3 feet from Accord.

    I estimate his tires to be just over 4 feet from dark green car, and his right elbow to be just over 3 feet from the side of the dark green car, measured horizontally.

    He could be farther than that, if he is closer to the camera than I assumed.

  4. #29
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri
    I estimate his tires to be just over 4 feet from dark green car, and his right elbow to be just over 3 feet from the side of the dark green car, measured horizontally.

    He could be farther than that, if he is closer to the camera than I assumed.
    I think he's closer, but even with these numbers, and assuming the car doors open 3.5 feet, that puts him 6" into the door zone, with no margin for error.

  5. #30
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I think he's closer, but even with these numbers, and assuming the car doors open 3.5 feet, that puts him 6" into the door zone, with no margin for error.
    He might be. But, I tried to make a conservative estimate. I don't think he could be possibly be closer to the door than 3 feet. But, he could be farther.

    I estimated his body to line up with the middle of the door. If he is actually lined up with the back of the car, he's around 4 feet from the car.

    The difficulty with this is that range estimation accuracy decreases greatly at increased range. I have to estimate the slope of the roadway based on the crosswalk markings and estimate the camera tilt based on the street signs. There are only a couple of pixels of depth between the back of the car and the side of the car. It seems to be in the noise.

    The mini-SUV is clearly past the crosswalk, and the stencil on which the cyclist's back tire might be riding is not far from the crosswalk. He looks shorter than the mini-SUV (probably farther away) but is much too big to be next to the Beetle. My horizontally projected lines from his rear wheel run close to the rear wheels of the dark green car, and maybe a bit farther away.

    ranges.jpg
    Last edited by sggoodri; 04-30-07 at 04:52 PM.

  6. #31
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri
    He might be. But, I tried to make a conservative estimate. I don't think he could be possibly be closer to the door than 3 feet. But, he could be farther.

    I estimated his body to line up with the middle of the door. If he is actually lined up with the back of the car, he's around 4 feet from the car.

    The difficulty with this is that range estimation accuracy decreases greatly at increased range. I have to estimate the slope of the roadway based on the crosswalk markings and estimate the camera tilt based on the street signs. There are only a couple of pixels of depth between the back of the car and the side of the car. It seems to be in the noise.

    The mini-SUV is clearly past the crosswalk, and the stencil on which the cyclist's back tire might be riding is not far from the crosswalk. He looks shorter than the mini-SUV (probably farther away) but is much too big to be next to the Beetle. My horizontally projected lines from his rear wheel run close to the rear wheels of the dark green car, and maybe a bit farther away.
    Don't you have Bicycling at home? Check it out when you get a chance. The resolution is better on the actual image in the photograph in the magazine, and his being in the door zone seems more obvious, at least to me.

  7. #32
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Give yourself four to avoid the door!

  8. #33
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Give yourself five to avoid the dive!!

    FTW
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  9. #34
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    If you don't get dead you'll hear from Helmet Head!

  10. #35
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Ok, so if you really want to change door zone cycling, let's consider who usually rides in the door zone. Probably people who are more or less cyclists not by choice. Possibly poor, maybe immigrant, maybe students or young people. They probably lack money for extras, so how about a blinkie or headlight give-away program. Give away a free light with a small, easy-to-read card with mostly graphic illustrations of some basic bicycling concepts. Stay out of the door zone. Avoid right hooks. Stay off the sidewalk. That sort of thing.

    Edit: Helmet Head should NOT write this.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  11. #36
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Edit: Helmet Head should NOT write this.
    Agreed!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Ok, so if you really want to change door zone cycling, let's consider who usually rides in the door zone. Probably people who are more or less cyclists not by choice. Possibly poor, maybe immigrant, maybe students or young people. They probably lack money for extras, so how about a blinkie or headlight give-away program. Give away a free light with a small, easy-to-read card with mostly graphic illustrations of some basic bicycling concepts. Stay out of the door zone. Avoid right hooks. Stay off the sidewalk. That sort of thing.

    Edit: Helmet Head should NOT write this.
    Would it be better prepared by the doorzone bikelane cheerleading squad?

  13. #38
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Oh, and another idea.

    Recently some members of the bicycle coalition held an event where they fixed up people's bikes for whatever donations. It was a way to gauge whether a bike kitchen would work here. They held it at a location that serves the Latino population with various programs and things. The attendance was phenomenal. They didn't expect to be thronged, and they didn't expect that once they fixed a few bikes, those whose bikes were fixed would turn and help the others fix their bikes too. It was an amazing show of community. And most of it was poor, Spanish-speaking, and really really in need of bike repairs.

    Anyway, an event like this would be a great place to hand out blinkies and headlights and information about how to ride safely.

    Now, try to imagine. Let's take a throng of community-minded people with bicycles, enjoying a free workshop, helping each other. Now, try to imagine somebody telling them they have a psychological disorder of inferiority. Imagine somebody telling them that the facilities that ease their way every day should be avoided because they aren't conspicuous as a rat in a mayonnaise jar. Imagine that person proffering 600 page manuals on cycling to this audience as the "best" bicycling manual ever written. I think that person would get some raised eyebrows and people would walk away from the event with the feeling they should not return.
    ~Diane
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    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    Would it be better prepared by the doorzone bikelane cheerleading squad?
    Who's that? Cheerleaders? Where?

    On a completely tangental line: did you know that in some places in Europe, to get the message out to motorists to not speed, topless women took to the streets holding signs? Perhaps we can do this for door zone bike lanes...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Oh, and another idea.

    Recently some members of the bicycle coalition held an event where they fixed up people's bikes for whatever donations. It was a way to gauge whether a bike kitchen would work here. They held it at a location that serves the Latino population with various programs and things. The attendance was phenomenal. They didn't expect to be thronged, and they didn't expect that once they fixed a few bikes, those whose bikes were fixed would turn and help the others fix their bikes too. It was an amazing show of community. And most of it was poor, Spanish-speaking, and really really in need of bike repairs.

    Anyway, an event like this would be a great place to hand out blinkies and headlights and information about how to ride safely.

    Now, try to imagine. Let's take a throng of community-minded people with bicycles, enjoying a free workshop, helping each other. Now, try to imagine somebody telling them they have a psychological disorder of inferiority. Imagine somebody telling them that the facilities that ease their way every day should be avoided because they aren't conspicuous as a rat in a mayonnaise jar. Imagine that person proffering 600 page manuals on cycling to this audience as the "best" bicycling manual ever written. I think that person would get some raised eyebrows and people would walk away from the event with the feeling they should not return.
    What an extravagently absurd fantasy. You must think that vehicular cyclists have no brains. And that, of course, condemns you and your thoughts.

  16. #41
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Ok, so if you really want to change door zone cycling, let's consider who usually rides in the door zone.
    The folks I see riding in DZ every morning (coming the other way) are well prepared commuters and on weekends club riders who are just following the leader. When I head to campus, its all students in the DZ.

    Al

  17. #42
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    most people just don't think about it happening to them, that the motorist will be careful and see them or they will see the motorist opening the door in time to avoid it. and truth is, most of the time a parked car will have no one in it. I have never even seen someone fling open the door and endanger cyclists, ever. but I haven't been commuting very long, just a year.
    but it's that one time that does it.
    my conciousness has been raised because of whatI've read here and I generally stay out of the DZ.

  18. #43
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    most people just don't think about it happening to them, that the motorist will be careful and see them or they will see the motorist opening the door in time to avoid it. and truth is, most of the time a parked car will have no one in it.


    That's exactly right. Another measure of how rare it is, is I've been riding out of door zones for years, and not once has anyone flung upon a door that would have harmed had I been in the door zone. But I know it's only a matter of time.

    I have never even seen someone fling open the door and endanger cyclists, ever. but I haven't been commuting very long, just a year.
    but it's that one time that does it.

    my conciousness has been raised because of whatI've read here and I generally stay out of the DZ.
    Good to hear.

    I hope your consciousness has also been raised about how far you have to track your tire -- FIVE FEET-- from parked cars in order to keep your right side (one foot to the right of your tire) outside of the 3.5' door zone (adding a minimal 6" margin of safety/error).

  19. #44
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    Ideally a rider would never get closer than five feet from parked cars. In reality, urban riders are likely to find themselves in situations where squeezing closer to the DZ can be useful and 'reasonably safe' depending on situational awareness/speed. I'm willing to make that compromise at times. Keep in mind I was more than five feet from the doorhandles when the Mercedes came out of that alley. A foot or two difference in lateral position is not going to save the bacon of an inattentive rider passing a line of parked cars and trucks.

    Robert
    Last edited by RobertHurst; 05-01-07 at 01:32 PM.

  20. #45
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    not once has anyone flung upon a door that would have harmed had I been in the door zone.
    It happened to me once. I was deliberately riding in the door zone to filter at a red light (in my early adult riding days), I knew it was tricky, so I was watching my speed. I had plenty of room to stop when a guy flung his door open. But my squeeky front brake almost made him drop a load in his pants...
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

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    It should be added that anyone who is really interested in this stuff should get down on the ground with a ruler or tape and find out exactly how much is how much. You may find that your conception of what four feet looks like is significantly off the mark.

  22. #47
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Now, try to imagine somebody telling them they have a psychological disorder of inferiority. Imagine somebody telling them that the facilities that ease their way every day should be avoided because they aren't conspicuous as a rat in a mayonnaise jar. Imagine that person proffering 600 page manuals on cycling to this audience as the "best" bicycling manual ever written. I think that person would get some raised eyebrows and people would walk away from the event with the feeling they should not return.
    Quote Originally Posted by somebody telling them they have a psychological disorder
    What an extravagently absurd fantasy. You must think that vehicular cyclists have no brains. And that, of course, condemns you and your thoughts.


    No need to imagine
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  23. #48
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    What about bringing drivers to reality with images of people who lost a hand or arm while negligently opening a door on a car or truck's path? What about getting tougher on these offenders when they door a cyclist instead of a benign misdemeanor? It's always the cyclist's fault!

    I have never been doored, but have been through several close calls (despite riding out of the DZ as much as possible) and have also got into some serious (only verbal and calm) explanations with the "doorers" that I can tell you have marked them with a very sorry facial expression.

    We don't go around swinging our bikes in the air and knocking down people and I have never opened a door negligently on anyone's path. Why is it so much asking ?

  24. #49
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst
    Ideally a rider would never get closer than five feet from parked cars. In reality, urban riders are likely to find themselves in situations where squeezing closer to the DZ can be useful and 'reasonably safe' depending on situational awareness/speed. I'm willing to make that compromise at times. Keep in mind I was more than five feet from the doorhandles when the Mercedes came out of that alley. A foot or two difference in lateral position is not going to save the bacon of an inattentive rider passing a line of parked cars and trucks.

    Robert
    As I recall, you were near the edge of the bike lane, but still inside it. For you to be "more than five feet from the door handles" means the bike lane would have to be 6 feet wide or more. Is that the case?

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    As I recall, you were near the edge of the bike lane, but still inside it. For you to be "more than five feet from the door handles" means the bike lane would have to be 6 feet wide or more. Is that the case?
    No it was a four and a halfer at the time, but there is a good foot-to-two feet between the right line and the doorhandles. I was traveling on or near the line. Closer to six feet from the doors than five I'd estimate.

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