Take the VC Challenge!
#26
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
well that certainly makes a lot more sense than HH's claim that installation of bike lanes caused a reduction in cycling.
I said that despite the installation of gazillions of dollars worth of infrastructure in Davis, enough to make it the only platinum rated bike friendly city in the U.S., cycling per capita in Davis has been reduced as compared to the 1960s when there was no cycling specific infrastructure.
If it wasn't for the free busses, maybe there would have been a slight increase from all that infrastructure. But the fact remains that at best, the undisputed best bike infrastructure in the U.S. had little if any impact on increasing bike usage.
Another factor is that back in the 60s few people had air conditioning in Davis, so everyone was much better acclimated to the summer heat back then. In the summers, Davis gets hot.
#27
Cheesmonger Extraordinair
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I never claimed that.
I said that despite the installation of gazillions of dollars worth of infrastructure in Davis, enough to make it the only platinum rated bike friendly city in the U.S., cycling per capita in Davis has been reduced as compared to the 1960s when there was no cycling specific infrastructure.
If it wasn't for the free busses, maybe there would have been a slight increase from all that infrastructure. But the fact remains that at best, the undisputed best bike infrastructure in the U.S. had little if any impact on increasing bike usage.
I said that despite the installation of gazillions of dollars worth of infrastructure in Davis, enough to make it the only platinum rated bike friendly city in the U.S., cycling per capita in Davis has been reduced as compared to the 1960s when there was no cycling specific infrastructure.
If it wasn't for the free busses, maybe there would have been a slight increase from all that infrastructure. But the fact remains that at best, the undisputed best bike infrastructure in the U.S. had little if any impact on increasing bike usage.
Do you ever look at the current social structure, or are you stuck in 1950s Disney-esque time that never existed? Ahhh, I loved that time - men beat their children, wives took speed and no one talked about VC
#29
tired
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 5,651
Bikes: Breezer Uptown 8, U frame
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
Hey, but if you're in Portland, bikes get you chicks, but what do I know?
__________________
"Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."
"Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."
#30
Out fishing with Annie on his lap, a cigar in one hand and a ginger ale in the other, watching the sunset.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Florida
Posts: 16,056
Bikes: Techna Wheelchair and a Sun EZ 3 Recumbent Trike
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times
in
17 Posts
Originally Posted by donnamb
What do the chicks get?
__________________
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
. “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche
"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant
#31
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe
Guy's with bikes?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#32
Sumanitu taka owaci
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 8,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by randya
We're still waiting for someone to tell us where more than one percent of daily vehicle trips are made by cyclists in a major US metropolitan area, and where no bicycle-specific infrastructure is provided.
We would also be interested to hear of any community in the US where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has become the common, acceptable thing for cyclists to do, and where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has resulted in more cyclists and less accidents. Information would in fact be appreciated on any individual municipality that has adopted this method of cycling as the one they will support, with appropriate signage, motorist/cyclist education programs and law enforcement training.
Thanks in advance for your responses!
We would also be interested to hear of any community in the US where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has become the common, acceptable thing for cyclists to do, and where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has resulted in more cyclists and less accidents. Information would in fact be appreciated on any individual municipality that has adopted this method of cycling as the one they will support, with appropriate signage, motorist/cyclist education programs and law enforcement training.
Thanks in advance for your responses!
__________________
No worries
No worries
#33
Dominatrikes
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Posts: 4,920
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Since nobody can do any better than 1.1% (seems to me the threshold should be greater than 2% since 2% is pretty common) let's see if maybe someone can capture pictures of cyclists riding VC. Let's see how well it's caught on.
Let's see people eschewing perfectly good bike lanes for the travel lane. People riding outside the door zone on roads without bike lanes. People riding high-speed arterials in the travel lane when traffic is heavy and fast.
And pictures of yourself don't count.
Let's see people eschewing perfectly good bike lanes for the travel lane. People riding outside the door zone on roads without bike lanes. People riding high-speed arterials in the travel lane when traffic is heavy and fast.
And pictures of yourself don't count.
#34
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Since nobody can do any better than 1.1% (seems to me the threshold should be greater than 2% since 2% is pretty common) let's see if maybe someone can capture pictures of cyclists riding VC. Let's see how well it's caught on.
Let's see people eschewing perfectly good bike lanes for the travel lane. People riding outside the door zone on roads without bike lanes. People riding high-speed arterials in the travel lane when traffic is heavy and fast.
And pictures of yourself don't count.
Let's see people eschewing perfectly good bike lanes for the travel lane. People riding outside the door zone on roads without bike lanes. People riding high-speed arterials in the travel lane when traffic is heavy and fast.
And pictures of yourself don't count.
Some cities within Maricopa County have 3.5% non-student commute trips by bicycle, with 10% of students commuting by bicycle. But this 161k population 40sq.mi. city has a total combined 165mi of bike lanes, paths, MUP and Bicycle Routes.
As to the pictures you asked for... I see these often - outside DZ, outside BL (very common if you consider ridng on the stripe outside the BL) - and of course folks ride on arterials. But I also see folks ride in the DZ, in BLs and on quiet residential streets. In otherwords, everyone doesn't do the same all the time.
I am still waiting for Randya to tell me which major metropolitian area in the US doesn't have any bicycle specific infrastructure.
Al
#35
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
I am still waiting for Randya to tell me which major metropolitian area in the US doesn't have any bicycle specific infrastructure.
Al
While I am not a strict paint and path advocate, it seems to me that rather than deny infrastructure, perhaps advocates should work to improve something that seems quite destined to stay... and has such a wide "audiance."
#36
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
I doubt there is such a city.
Al
#37
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Which is why Randya's 'challenge' is disingenuous. The answer can only be there is none, not because of a lack of cyclists, but instead a lack of such a major metro area.
Al
Al
Perhaps a better question is why in the face of vehicular cycling and a book written to promote the same, have facilities taken off to such an extent? Of course, the answer we are most likely to hear is "cyclist inferiority" or more accurately "motorist superiority" (as it effects more than just cyclists). But one also has to ask why infrastructure took off in Europe too... where supposedly such "motorist superiority" does not exist?
#38
Dominatrikes
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Posts: 4,920
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Let's modify his challenge then and say the city has to have no more cyclist-specific infastructure than say, Houston.
#39
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Let's modify his challenge then and say the city has to have no more cyclist-specific infastructure than say, Houston.
Al
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 2,968
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Perhaps a better question is why in the face of vehicular cycling and a book written to promote the same, have facilities taken off to such an extent? Of course, the answer we are most likely to hear is "cyclist inferiority" or more accurately "motorist superiority" (as it effects more than just cyclists). But one also has to ask why infrastructure took off in Europe too... where supposedly such "motorist superiority" does not exist?
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Perhaps a better question is why in the face of vehicular cycling and a book written to promote the same, have facilities taken off to such an extent? Of course, the answer we are most likely to hear is "cyclist inferiority" or more accurately "motorist superiority" (as it effects more than just cyclists). But one also has to ask why infrastructure took off in Europe too... where supposedly such "motorist superiority" does not exist?
Therefore, I think that the claim that motorist superiority does not exist in Europe, leading to the conclusion that European bikeways were built purely for the benefit of cyclists, are both false.
#42
Senior Member
I said that despite the installation of gazillions of dollars worth of infrastructure in Davis, enough to make it the only platinum rated bike friendly city in the U.S., cycling per capita in Davis has been reduced as compared to the 1960s when there was no cycling specific infrastructure.
What should be measured is cyclists per capita of residents which work within 5 miles of their home. Such numbers probably haven't been collected, but it would be an infinitely better measure of bicycling than plain number of cyclists per capita.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
It shouldn't surprise anyone that number of cyclists per capita drops as cities grow. City grows. City gets suburbs, which are autocentric. Number of cyclists/capita drops. Pretty straight forward.
What should be measured is cyclists per capita of residents which work within 5 miles of their home. Such numbers probably haven't been collected, but it would be an infinitely better measure of bicycling than plain number of cyclists per capita.
What should be measured is cyclists per capita of residents which work within 5 miles of their home. Such numbers probably haven't been collected, but it would be an infinitely better measure of bicycling than plain number of cyclists per capita.
#44
Senior Member
Originally Posted by John Forester
Yes, it is considerations such as this that determine the competitive balance between cycling and motoring. However, there are many such considerations, for example the proportion of linked trips being made, linked trips being much less likely to be best made by bicycle.
Actually, some automobile manufactures are starting to recognize that many people use their car as a 2 ton grocery cart, i.e., it's not for the effortless travel or the speed, but merely for cargo carrying capabilities. I read about one housing development somewhere (I forgot where) incorportated a shopping center of some sort in the development and gave (or tacked onto the selling price of the home) each home buyer a smartcar so they could get to the grocery store and back without burning any gasoline.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
#45
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I said that despite the installation of gazillions of dollars worth of infrastructure in Davis, enough to make it the only platinum rated bike friendly city in the U.S., cycling per capita in Davis has been reduced as compared to the 1960s when there was no cycling specific infrastructure.
What should be measured is cyclists per capita of residents which work within 5 miles of their home. Such numbers probably haven't been collected, but it would be an infinitely better measure of bicycling than plain number of cyclists per capita.
Davis is 10 square miles, and pretty much flat as a pancake.
All destinations within the city are just as bike-reachable today as they were in the 1960s.
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Crystal MN
Posts: 2,147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Actually its 1.1% of commuting miles are by bicycle.
You asked for where there are over 1% of commuting trips. 1.1% of miles represents quite a bit more than 1% of trips. Thats 450,000 miles commuted by bicycle every day in a county with a population of ~3.8M
Apparently you consider several months of 110-120F prime cycling weather. Most folks round here consider that nuts.
Al
You asked for where there are over 1% of commuting trips. 1.1% of miles represents quite a bit more than 1% of trips. Thats 450,000 miles commuted by bicycle every day in a county with a population of ~3.8M
Apparently you consider several months of 110-120F prime cycling weather. Most folks round here consider that nuts.
Al
Also is a bicycle friendly employer considered a bicycle facility. Because in Maricopa they have an alternative trip reduction program. This is mandatory if you have over 50 employees.
Note you only have to worry about the heat index reaching 107 after that your going to start to boil (blood) 30 mins. on 15 mins. off.
#47
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by wheel
Wow 450,000 miles I bet 2/3 is done on a sidewalk or a MUP err canal.
Also is a bicycle friendly employer considered a bicycle facility. Because in Maricopa they have an alternative trip reduction program. This is mandatory if you have over 50 employees.
Note you only have to worry about the heat index reaching 107 after that your going to start to boil (blood)
Also is a bicycle friendly employer considered a bicycle facility. Because in Maricopa they have an alternative trip reduction program. This is mandatory if you have over 50 employees.
Note you only have to worry about the heat index reaching 107 after that your going to start to boil (blood)
alternative trip reduction programs
Bzzzt...disqualified!
#48
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
Bzzzt...disqualified!
Al
#50
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by rando
what was the question? I forgot!
bike rack... bzzzzt.
MUP thru city park... bzzzzt