Take the VC Challenge!
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Take the VC Challenge!
We're still waiting for someone to tell us where more than one percent of daily vehicle trips are made by cyclists in a major US metropolitan area, and where no bicycle-specific infrastructure is provided.
We would also be interested to hear of any community in the US where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has become the common, acceptable thing for cyclists to do, and where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has resulted in more cyclists and less accidents. Information would in fact be appreciated on any individual municipality that has adopted this method of cycling as the one they will support, with appropriate signage, motorist/cyclist education programs and law enforcement training.
Thanks in advance for your responses!
We would also be interested to hear of any community in the US where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has become the common, acceptable thing for cyclists to do, and where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has resulted in more cyclists and less accidents. Information would in fact be appreciated on any individual municipality that has adopted this method of cycling as the one they will support, with appropriate signage, motorist/cyclist education programs and law enforcement training.
Thanks in advance for your responses!
#2
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
1.1% of all miles traveled in Maricopa County, AZ are by bicycle. (MC includes metro-Phx, over two dozen towns, more than a dozen major/large cities)
But of course there are some bike lanes in MC (generally within specific cities), however a very low percentage of miles have BLs overall. Edit: There are 1340 miles of bike lanes in MC.
Edit2: "there are 1,345 miles of bike lanes, which includes multi-use, paved multi-use, bike lanes, and bike routes on street" (quote from web page)
Thats the flaw in this request. Show me a major metropolitan are that has zero bike specific infrastructure.
Al
But of course there are some bike lanes in MC (generally within specific cities), however a very low percentage of miles have BLs overall. Edit: There are 1340 miles of bike lanes in MC.
Edit2: "there are 1,345 miles of bike lanes, which includes multi-use, paved multi-use, bike lanes, and bike routes on street" (quote from web page)
Thats the flaw in this request. Show me a major metropolitan are that has zero bike specific infrastructure.
Al
Last edited by noisebeam; 05-01-07 at 02:42 PM.
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
1.1%, wow, that's pretty huge! Especially since it's bicycling weather in AZ most of the time. Thanks for making my point.
Next?
Next?
#4
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Actually its 1.1% of commuting miles are by bicycle.
You asked for where there are over 1% of commuting trips. 1.1% of miles represents quite a bit more than 1% of trips. Thats 450,000 miles commuted by bicycle every day in a county with a population of ~3.8M
Apparently you consider several months of 110-120F prime cycling weather. Most folks round here consider that nuts.
Al
You asked for where there are over 1% of commuting trips. 1.1% of miles represents quite a bit more than 1% of trips. Thats 450,000 miles commuted by bicycle every day in a county with a population of ~3.8M
Apparently you consider several months of 110-120F prime cycling weather. Most folks round here consider that nuts.
Al
Last edited by noisebeam; 05-01-07 at 02:21 PM.
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.
#6
Banned.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Posts: 4,020
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Apparently you consider several months of 110-120F prime cycling weather.
#7
Banned.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Posts: 4,020
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.
#8
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
I guess my 40mile RT commute from Sommerton to MCAS Yuma for a couple of years was nuts.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#9
Banned.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Posts: 4,020
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
I guess my 40mile RT commute from Sommerton to MCAS Yuma for a couple of years was nuts.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 2,968
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.
it's really not that bad once you get used to it.
there's AC here.
and pools. and shade (not enough)
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the hills of Orange, CA
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Here's something showing the opposite effect - that more facilities do not necessarily result in increased commuting cycling. (Do note that there is a substantial club cycling population on the weekends.) Here's a link to the abstract of a thesis (unfortunately the full thesis is in Hebrew): https://www.graduate.technion.ac.il/T...s.asp?Id=11541
Here's the city bikeways map, so you can see the extent of facilities in Irvine: https://www.cityofirvine.org/depts/pw...e_bikeways.asp
Irvine (California) is a place with near-optimal conditions for bicycling, such as suitable geographical and weather characteristics. It is a new city that had a bicycle plan incorporated into its general plan. It has very few physical or planning constraints. Around 80% of the proposed infrastructure is already completed, and Irvine’s population has high potential for bicycling. Nevertheless the percentage of bicycling in Irvine is not higher than the national or regional rates. Portland, as opposed to Irvine, has succeeded in raising the percentage of bicycling in the city.
The City of Irvine provides a system of bicycle lanes and trails to encourage the use of the bicycle as a safe and convenient means of transportation for both commuting and recreational purposes. This is evident by the 44.5 miles of off-road bicycle trails and 282 miles of on-road bicycle lanes provided in the City today.
#12
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by galen_52657
I have never been there so I can't really relate. Is it dry heat? Water consumption wards off overheating from what I hear....
Once you get acclimated to the heat, you're fine as long as you stay hydrated and keep your head covered. Where it got REAL hot was out on the flight line...used to sizzle eggs on the wings of F-4 Phantoms.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#13
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Boring. The only platinum "bicycling friendly" city in the country, Davis, CA, had more cyclists per capita back in the 1960s before they had a single bike lane.
Now they credit the gazillions dollars of bike infrastructure for all the cycling that is done in that town, yet there was more of it being done before they spent all those tax dollars.
Now they credit the gazillions dollars of bike infrastructure for all the cycling that is done in that town, yet there was more of it being done before they spent all those tax dollars.
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Boring. The only platinum "bicycling friendly" city in the country, Davis, CA, had more cyclists per capita back in the 1960s before they had a single bike lane.
Now they credit the gazillions dollars of bike infrastructure for all the cycling that is done in that town, yet there was more of it being done before they spent all those tax dollars.
Now they credit the gazillions dollars of bike infrastructure for all the cycling that is done in that town, yet there was more of it being done before they spent all those tax dollars.
#15
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
show us the numbers
It’s far beyond the aspirations, even the dreams, of the little band of activists who campaigned for bike lanes nearly 40 years ago. But it grew from a seed planted then, in 1965.
That seed was a letter to the editor from Frank Child, who warned that the town’s tradition of bicycling was in danger. The campus had grown from 2,000 students in 1959 to 7,000 and would reach 12,000 in 1969. The town had 14,500 residents and was growing 10 percent per year.
That seed was a letter to the editor from Frank Child, who warned that the town’s tradition of bicycling was in danger. The campus had grown from 2,000 students in 1959 to 7,000 and would reach 12,000 in 1969. The town had 14,500 residents and was growing 10 percent per year.
This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.
#16
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.
Cheap housing
Heavily subsidized water. Folks talk about gas prices being too low, I'd add water to the list.
I primarily live here due to proxmity to excellent hiking, backpacking. Otherwise I'd move.
I don't fight the heat (half the battle is really mental). I do wonder about the people that do.
Al
#17
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
for making my point.
Next?
Next?
Al
#18
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by noisebeam
I think you are too eager for an argument. I just presented data I was familiar with. Of course it doesn't make or not make your point and I wasn't trying to one way or the other.
Al
Al
#19
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
I wasn't trying to argue. I just didn't find the extra 0.1% particularly compelling.
More curious to me is show me a 'major US metropolitan area' that doesn't have any bike specific infrastructure.
Al
#20
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Haven't found them yet, but this supports what I'm saying:
https://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/lottarticle.html
This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.
https://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/lottarticle.html
This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.
That has done more to tarnish the image of a cyclist than anything else...
So do you blame that on "facilities" or "safety" or what...
#21
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Haven't found them yet, but this supports what I'm saying:
https://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/lottarticle.html
This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.
https://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/lottarticle.html
This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
Interesting little article. Points of note: (1) cyclists advocated for the bike lanes in Davis because of problems with aggressive and impatient motorists. The alternative to dealing with motorist superiority disorder - motorist reeducation - apparently wasn't even on the table back then; (2) dooring was recognized as the serious problem that it is, and so were turning manuevers across bike lanes, even in 1965, and it sounds like they attempted as much as practical given ROW space, to address these two issues; and (3) I'll bet that cycling in Davis today is up in terms of total numbers, and that any drop in the percentage of cyclists per capita in Davis is primarily due to continuing suburban growth, which is autocentric.
Notice that they called themselves the Bicycle Safety Committee, while knowing nothing about safe cycling.
And there are two completely opposed stories about the genesis of bikeways in Davis. Lott states that the UC campus (which was an agricultural experiment station, the birthplace of industrial tomatoes) had 2,000 students in 1959, with the plan to grow to 20,000 as a full UC campus. The other story says that the City Council worried about the expected enormous increase in cycling students and opposed measures to accommodate them until they also realized that the accommodations could prevent bicycle traffic from blocking the roads.
A longterm professorial observer of cycling in Davis commented that the strongest factor in reducing cycling in Davis has been the establishment of the free campus bus system.
Lott refers to the bikeway study done for the FHWA, in which several of the Davis people participated, including him, and which resulted in design standards and a report on the research that supported those standards. I mentioned that report in some discussion on these lists, published as FHWA-RD-75-112, Safety and Location Criteria for Bicycle Facilities, Final Report, Feb 1976. I adversely criticized much of the research done, and, in the end, the FHWA gave up and adopted the California standards which we in California had been developing at the same time.
#23
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
This quote from the Davis paper supports that "Motorist Superiority" was key in motivating cyclists to attempt to find a solution.
So if motorists had been given the word at that point that cyclists had rights to use the roads (I don't believe CA stated those rights as written law at that time) perhaps things might have turned out differently.
The town had 14,500 residents and was growing 10 percent per year. Bike riders were being forced to duke it out with increasingly impatient drivers and more and more were giving up riding.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the hills of Orange, CA
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya
I'll bet that cycling in Davis today is up in terms of total numbers, and that any drop in the percentage of cyclists per capita in Davis is primarily due to continuing suburban growth, which is autocentric.
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696
Bikes: who cares?
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
I've heard that increased bus service has reduced cycling, due to a shift from cycling to transit.