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  1. #1
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Take the VC Challenge!

    We're still waiting for someone to tell us where more than one percent of daily vehicle trips are made by cyclists in a major US metropolitan area, and where no bicycle-specific infrastructure is provided.

    We would also be interested to hear of any community in the US where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has become the common, acceptable thing for cyclists to do, and where Lane Taking Vehicular Cycling has resulted in more cyclists and less accidents. Information would in fact be appreciated on any individual municipality that has adopted this method of cycling as the one they will support, with appropriate signage, motorist/cyclist education programs and law enforcement training.

    Thanks in advance for your responses!

  2. #2
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    1.1% of all miles traveled in Maricopa County, AZ are by bicycle. (MC includes metro-Phx, over two dozen towns, more than a dozen major/large cities)

    But of course there are some bike lanes in MC (generally within specific cities), however a very low percentage of miles have BLs overall. Edit: There are 1340 miles of bike lanes in MC.

    Edit2: "there are 1,345 miles of bike lanes, which includes multi-use, paved multi-use, bike lanes, and bike routes on street" (quote from web page)

    Thats the flaw in this request. Show me a major metropolitan are that has zero bike specific infrastructure.

    Al
    Last edited by noisebeam; 05-01-07 at 03:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    1.1%, wow, that's pretty huge! Especially since it's bicycling weather in AZ most of the time. Thanks for making my point.

    Next?

  4. #4
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Actually its 1.1% of commuting miles are by bicycle.

    You asked for where there are over 1% of commuting trips. 1.1% of miles represents quite a bit more than 1% of trips. Thats 450,000 miles commuted by bicycle every day in a county with a population of ~3.8M

    Apparently you consider several months of 110-120F prime cycling weather. Most folks round here consider that nuts.

    Al
    Last edited by noisebeam; 05-01-07 at 03:21 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.

  6. #6
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Apparently you consider several months of 110-120F prime cycling weather.
    It takes her a long time to get hot.....

  7. #7
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.
    She has a point on that one....

  8. #8
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    I guess my 40mile RT commute from Sommerton to MCAS Yuma for a couple of years was nuts.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  9. #9
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    I guess my 40mile RT commute from Sommerton to MCAS Yuma for a couple of years was nuts.
    I have never been there so I can't really relate. Is it dry heat? Water consumption wards off overheating from what I hear....

  10. #10
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.
    but..... it's dry heat!

    it's really not that bad once you get used to it.
    there's AC here.

    and pools. and shade (not enough)

  11. #11
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Here's something showing the opposite effect - that more facilities do not necessarily result in increased commuting cycling. (Do note that there is a substantial club cycling population on the weekends.) Here's a link to the abstract of a thesis (unfortunately the full thesis is in Hebrew): http://www.graduate.technion.ac.il/T...s.asp?Id=11541

    Irvine (California) is a place with near-optimal conditions for bicycling, such as suitable geographical and weather characteristics. It is a new city that had a bicycle plan incorporated into its general plan. It has very few physical or planning constraints. Around 80% of the proposed infrastructure is already completed, and Irvine’s population has high potential for bicycling. Nevertheless the percentage of bicycling in Irvine is not higher than the national or regional rates. Portland, as opposed to Irvine, has succeeded in raising the percentage of bicycling in the city.
    Here's the city bikeways map, so you can see the extent of facilities in Irvine: http://www.cityofirvine.org/depts/pw...e_bikeways.asp

    The City of Irvine provides a system of bicycle lanes and trails to encourage the use of the bicycle as a safe and convenient means of transportation for both commuting and recreational purposes. This is evident by the 44.5 miles of off-road bicycle trails and 282 miles of on-road bicycle lanes provided in the City today.

  12. #12
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galen_52657
    I have never been there so I can't really relate. Is it dry heat? Water consumption wards off overheating from what I hear....
    Down in the irrigated orange groves in the valley...no it aint the famous 'dry heat'...it gets downright muggy! But it also seems a bit cooler in the valley too...you can feel the difference when you drop down the hill...might be 120 in town, only 110 in the valley.

    Once you get acclimated to the heat, you're fine as long as you stay hydrated and keep your head covered. Where it got REAL hot was out on the flight line...used to sizzle eggs on the wings of F-4 Phantoms.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  13. #13
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Boring. The only platinum "bicycling friendly" city in the country, Davis, CA, had more cyclists per capita back in the 1960s before they had a single bike lane.

    Now they credit the gazillions dollars of bike infrastructure for all the cycling that is done in that town, yet there was more of it being done before they spent all those tax dollars.

  14. #14
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Boring. The only platinum "bicycling friendly" city in the country, Davis, CA, had more cyclists per capita back in the 1960s before they had a single bike lane.

    Now they credit the gazillions dollars of bike infrastructure for all the cycling that is done in that town, yet there was more of it being done before they spent all those tax dollars.
    show us the numbers

  15. #15
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    show us the numbers
    Haven't found them yet, but this supports what I'm saying:

    It’s far beyond the aspirations, even the dreams, of the little band of activists who campaigned for bike lanes nearly 40 years ago. But it grew from a seed planted then, in 1965.

    That seed was a letter to the editor from Frank Child, who warned that the town’s tradition of bicycling was in danger. The campus had grown from 2,000 students in 1959 to 7,000 and would reach 12,000 in 1969. The town had 14,500 residents and was growing 10 percent per year.
    http://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/lottarticle.html

    This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.

  16. #16
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Why would three million people want to live somewhere with limited natural water resources and normal temps that are considered too hot to be outdoors in? That's what's nuts.
    Jobs
    Cheap housing
    Heavily subsidized water. Folks talk about gas prices being too low, I'd add water to the list.

    I primarily live here due to proxmity to excellent hiking, backpacking. Otherwise I'd move.

    I don't fight the heat (half the battle is really mental). I do wonder about the people that do.

    Al

  17. #17
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    for making my point.

    Next?
    I think you are too eager for an argument. I just presented data I was familiar with. Of course it doesn't make or not make your point and I wasn't trying to one way or the other.
    Al

  18. #18
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    I think you are too eager for an argument. I just presented data I was familiar with. Of course it doesn't make or not make your point and I wasn't trying to one way or the other.
    Al
    I wasn't trying to argue. I just didn't find the extra 0.1% particularly compelling.


  19. #19
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    I wasn't trying to argue. I just didn't find the extra 0.1% particularly compelling.

    The .1% is meaningless. There are bike lanes in maricopa country (1340mi of them) so right there this county can not be used as an example. We also don't know how many of those miles utilize roadways vs. sidewalk.

    More curious to me is show me a 'major US metropolitan area' that doesn't have any bike specific infrastructure.

    Al

  20. #20
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Haven't found them yet, but this supports what I'm saying:


    http://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/lottarticle.html

    This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.
    If anything has reduced the number of bikes on the road... it is the legal requirement to wear a helmet.

    That has done more to tarnish the image of a cyclist than anything else...

    So do you blame that on "facilities" or "safety" or what...

  21. #21
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Haven't found them yet, but this supports what I'm saying:


    http://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/lottarticle.html

    This at least shows that the town had a strong tradition of bicycling back in the 1960s before any bike lanes were painted. But I don't have numbers or percentages. I can tell you that we visited family friends in Davis in the 1960s, and there were bikes everywhere, more than today. Remember, that was back in the day when most families still had only one car, and most kids, especially in Davis, went everywhere by bike.
    Interesting little article. Points of note: (1) cyclists advocated for the bike lanes in Davis because of problems with aggressive and impatient motorists. The alternative to dealing with motorist superiority disorder - motorist reeducation - apparently wasn't even on the table back then; (2) dooring was recognized as the serious problem that it is, and so were turning manuevers across bike lanes, even in 1965, and it sounds like they attempted as much as practical given ROW space, to address these two issues; and (3) I'll bet that cycling in Davis today is up in terms of total numbers, and that any drop in the percentage of cyclists per capita in Davis is primarily due to continuing suburban growth, which is autocentric.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Interesting little article. Points of note: (1) cyclists advocated for the bike lanes in Davis because of problems with aggressive and impatient motorists. The alternative to dealing with motorist superiority disorder - motorist reeducation - apparently wasn't even on the table back then; (2) dooring was recognized as the serious problem that it is, and so were turning manuevers across bike lanes, even in 1965, and it sounds like they attempted as much as practical given ROW space, to address these two issues; and (3) I'll bet that cycling in Davis today is up in terms of total numbers, and that any drop in the percentage of cyclists per capita in Davis is primarily due to continuing suburban growth, which is autocentric.
    Dale Lott and Bob Sommer were the two most prominent bicycle activists in Davis, but neither of them knew much about cycling. Witness putting a bike lane between the parked cars and the curb. Any person with knowledge of traffic-cycling would have known then that such a design was crazy. Dale and his wife Donna wrote a paper attempting to show that Davis bike lanes reduced car-bike collisions by some enormous proportion (I forget what, now, and I'm not going to look it up). They did so by classifying bicycle traffic movements into those made safer by bike-lane stripes, those made more dangerous, and those unaffected (neutral). They used the number of collisions in the neutral types as a stand-in for the traffic volumes, which were unknown, and then calculated the net number reduced from the other two types. Trouble is, because their ideas of how traffic moves were thoroughly inaccurate, their classifications were inaccurate. I reviewed the paper, and concluded that the date, such as it was, could demonstrate anything from a reduction to an increase, with a slight bias toward increase.

    Notice that they called themselves the Bicycle Safety Committee, while knowing nothing about safe cycling.

    And there are two completely opposed stories about the genesis of bikeways in Davis. Lott states that the UC campus (which was an agricultural experiment station, the birthplace of industrial tomatoes) had 2,000 students in 1959, with the plan to grow to 20,000 as a full UC campus. The other story says that the City Council worried about the expected enormous increase in cycling students and opposed measures to accommodate them until they also realized that the accommodations could prevent bicycle traffic from blocking the roads.

    A longterm professorial observer of cycling in Davis commented that the strongest factor in reducing cycling in Davis has been the establishment of the free campus bus system.

    Lott refers to the bikeway study done for the FHWA, in which several of the Davis people participated, including him, and which resulted in design standards and a report on the research that supported those standards. I mentioned that report in some discussion on these lists, published as FHWA-RD-75-112, Safety and Location Criteria for Bicycle Facilities, Final Report, Feb 1976. I adversely criticized much of the research done, and, in the end, the FHWA gave up and adopted the California standards which we in California had been developing at the same time.

  23. #23
    genec genec's Avatar
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    This quote from the Davis paper supports that "Motorist Superiority" was key in motivating cyclists to attempt to find a solution.

    The town had 14,500 residents and was growing 10 percent per year. Bike riders were being forced to duke it out with increasingly impatient drivers and more and more were giving up riding.
    So if motorists had been given the word at that point that cyclists had rights to use the roads (I don't believe CA stated those rights as written law at that time) perhaps things might have turned out differently.

  24. #24
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    I'll bet that cycling in Davis today is up in terms of total numbers, and that any drop in the percentage of cyclists per capita in Davis is primarily due to continuing suburban growth, which is autocentric.
    I've heard that increased bus service has reduced cycling, due to a shift from cycling to transit.

  25. #25
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
    I've heard that increased bus service has reduced cycling, due to a shift from cycling to transit.
    well that certainly makes a lot more sense than HH's claim that installation of bike lanes caused a reduction in cycling.

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