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  1. #26
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Is it true? Is HH actually trying to pry out some street cred out of another cyclist when he won't answer questions as to his experience himself?

    Somehow, in living carless and bike touring for a week from Seattle to Portland, I don't think that Bek needs to answer to HH's challenge.
    Context, Brian, context.

    I have always answered questions about my experience when my experience was relevant to something I was saying.

  2. #27
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    I am talking about if they are riding with traffic obeying traffic laws but as far as you can tell they are not riding VC or what you consider to be VC.
    If a person is cycling to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, then he is riding in the vehicular manner.
    Curb hugging is within the traffic laws (and actually might be encouraged in some places), yet is not what most would consider riding in a vehicular manner.

    Per your own ideas outlined in your book, rules of the road for drivers of vehicles are a subset of traffic law and are not always equivalent. When talking in reference to bicyclists, sometimes the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles encourages a riding style which is outside the specific traffic laws related to bicyclists.

    I believe that N_C is referring to cyclists who are obeying traffic law, but are not adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling.
    When John Forester writes, "obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles", to me that means "adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling", which has much in common with, but is not identical to, "obeying traffic law".

    Curb hugging (riding in space where pedestrians would walk, with or against traffic), for example, is within the traffic laws, but it is not "obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles", nor is it "adhering to commonly recognized principles of vehicular cycling".

    Edit: this is not a distinction I've seen Mr. Forester make, and indeed, he seems to not recognize it.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    So, then, what's your point? Are you a racer? (and not Cat 5, anyone can be a Cat 5 for $15 and a number, even me). If you want Bek to expound on his experience riding with groups; I want you to expound on your experience riding in traffic.

    If it matters to you that Bek's comment be based on experience; it matters to me that your comments are based on experience.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  4. #29
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    So, then, what's your point? Are you a racer? (and not Cat 5, anyone can be a Cat 5 for $15 and a number, even me). If you want Bek to expound on his experience riding with groups; I want you to expound on your experience riding in traffic.

    If it matters to you that Bek's comment be based on experience; it matters to me that your comments are based on experience.
    I think it depends on the comment.

    I asked for details about his experience with riding in groups in response to his comment about riding with groups, which is the first time I've ever noticed him claim to ride with groups (in contrast to Al, for example, who mentions doing so fairly frequently). And I don't mean to imply that I don't believe him. I just always pictured Bek on either a hybrid or a touring bike with panniers, not on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra. I'm looking to correct/update my image of him.

    But when I make a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle, I will not answer irrelevant questions about my experience. It's more to underscore the irrelevancy of my experience to whatever it is that I'm claiming (because I try very hard to make objective self-supporting arguments that are based on premises that I believe all cyclists should be able to accept without knowing anything about the experience of whoever is making those assertions), than to avoid questions about my experience per se.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Whatever lets you sleep at night, HH. Notice that when you are referring to your own questioning one's experience, it is because of a legit reason, and whenever someone asks you for your experience, it's "a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle." But whatever. As long as you can sleep at night...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  6. #31
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Whatever lets you sleep at night, HH. Notice that when you are referring to your own questioning one's experience, it is because of a legit reason, and whenever someone asks you for your experience, it's "a claim that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle." But whatever. As long as you can sleep at night...
    Go back and look at the claims I was making when you were complaining about me not answering questions about my experience. You will see that they were claims "that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle."

    Now look at the context in which I asked my questions of Bek. They were in regard to specific claims about his own riding which by definition could not have been done "by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle".

    Context matters.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Whatever you say, HH.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  8. #33
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    "...on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra..."

    I fail to see how this describes anyone who considers themselves a transportational cyclist, or how the experiences of someone doing the above has any relevance to transportational cycling.

  9. #34
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    the weekend club fred HH debates MY riding abilites and speed.

    Except for my disparaging YOUR weekend club Fred rides, Head, would you think I don't ride tight and fast with the pacelines? I put down 150-350 miles a week, a lot of it tight-n-fast training miles, mr. head.

    Isn't this thread about VC acolytes, that, like helemt head, admit they don't ride much? What is this thread about? Isn't this thread about Calling other riders out to their NON-VC riding styles?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #35
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    You will see that they were claims "that could be made by a blind paraplegic who has never sat on a bicycle."
    I bet I could find you a blind paraplegic that says that he knows of pelotons that will go "team Cinzano" on someone yelling at them about the door zone.... I could find you one, there are ways dude. You don't even want to know.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  11. #36
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    It's kinda like me, a smoker, giving other folks my 'expert' advice on how to quit because I don't smoke on weekends.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  12. #37
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    "...on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra..."

    I fail to see how this describes anyone who considers themselves a transportational cyclist, or how the experiences of someone doing the above has any relevance to transportational cycling.
    I am kind of wondering that myself; Helemt Head's weekend club fred rides have little in common with solo, transportational vehicular cycling. Weekender Peloton rides are NOT like fighting rush hour traffic as a commuter.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  13. #38
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    weekend club fred rides have little in common with solo, transportational vehicular cycling. Weekender Peloton rides are NOT like fighting rush hour traffic as a commuter.
    I somewhat agree. I find that bike lanes generally serve weekend club rides better than individual solo riders who need to get anywhere at anytime. Weekend riders can pick their routes and can comfortably ride along the white bike lane stripe, using their mass for visibility even if off to the side. The mass of riders overwhelms the (often incorrect) message bike lanes may send motorists. Riding far right within a bike lane is a bit less hazardous in a mass setting, but also good for a mass of cyclist to do as it can be much more difficult for a motorist to pass a long string of cyclists vs. a solo one.

    In otherwords, I find bike lanes to be far easier to ignore when riding with clubs.

    This is why as I've mentioned in post #2 in this thread that I am willing to ride non vehiclularly when in clubs.

    Al

  14. #39
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    "...on a road racing machine riding in a tight peloton averaging 22 mph wearing Lycra..."

    I fail to see how this describes anyone who considers themselves a transportational cyclist, or how the experiences of someone doing the above has any relevance to transportational cycling.
    It doesn't.

    It describes someone who claims to ride with groups that average 22 mph, which is what Bek claimed.

  15. #40
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Apparently Bek does ride in fast paced club groups. Now then... what of it?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  16. #41
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    It's kinda like me, a smoker, giving other folks my 'expert' advice on how to quit because I don't smoke on weekends.
    I've never smoked a cigarette in my life.
    My mom smoked for over 40 years before she quit.

    Yet either one of us could make the following statement, and it's just as true regardless of which one of us says it: It really helps to quit smoking by finding a way to feel disgusted about it.

    Here's the thing. There are millions of cyclists out there. Each one of us is just one of those cyclists. At best, each cyclist's experience is based on a sample of one. Not very meaningful, nor very relevant, for much of what can be said about cycling. This is why I try to avoid saying much based on my own experience which by definition is based on a sample of one.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-02-07 at 05:40 PM.

  17. #42
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Apparently Bek does ride in fast paced club groups. Now then... what of it?
    Yes, apparently he does. What of it? It raises these questions:

    What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?

  18. #43
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    This is why I try to avoid saying much based on my own experience which by definition is a sample of one.
    So instead you parrot a 30 year old book?

    Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire!

  19. #44
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    okay, 21 and 1/2
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Yes, apparently he does. What of it? It raises these questions:

    What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?
    Whatever bike it is, I'm sure it's not affected by pine needles or any other kind of debris

  21. #46
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I'm much more concerned about weekend club fredders who pontificate about transportational cycling, than my average speed in the pelotons.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #47
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I'm lost. How in the world did we get talking about club riding? I thought we talked about transportational cycling here.

    FWIW, if Bek is holding 21 and 1/5 mph, I'd bet he's on a road bike. Or something like a road bike. I'm not sure why it's important that he races. I'm pretty sure, that with 50 miles a week of riding that HH does't race. I'm just trying to find some relevence here. As I understand, HH made a comment about how he's the safety nanny of his group ride, Bek made a comment, and now, we're on to HH wanting to know if Bek races and what bikes he rides and everyone else wanting to know if HH bicycles for transportation.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  23. #48
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Yes, apparently he does. What of it? It raises these questions:

    What bike do you use on those rides? Do these guys race? What cats? Do you?
    I'm stretching to search for a relevance here. Why does riding with a club raise questions? I'm not following.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  24. #49
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    So instead you parrot a 30 year old book?

    Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire!
    Actually, I try not to rely on quoting from books either, except on issues that pivot on what was said in the book in question or by the writer in question.

  25. #50
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    I'm stretching to search for a relevance here. Why does riding with a club raise questions? I'm not following.
    It's a tangent from the thread topic, to be sure.

    It just happened to come up here because Bek made a statement about his riding that contradicted my impression of his riding. So, again, my purpose here is to update/correct my impression of his riding so that it's closer to reality.

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