Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    NCDOT Bike Manual: Streetwise Cycling

    Here is NCDOT's manual for bicycling on roadways:

    http://www.ncdot.org/transit/bicycle...e_cycling.html

    Does this represent a reasonable description of vehicular cycling? Is there anything disagreeable? Go ahead, tear it apart!

    -Steve

  2. #2
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    My Bikes
    1975-1980 SR road bike
    Posts
    1,613
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I like some of the general concepts, and it seems VC on a certain level, but it has some dumb stuff too. Like where it says that if a car passing a bike honks, the bicyclist has to move right....yeah....like I should have to drive into broken glass cause some bubba couldn't plan a safe pass....

    Also, the talking about how "risky" night-riding is seems a little liability driven.. doesn't NC have a law about contributory negligence? That if you are acting in a "risky" way and you get hit by someone, that you have a harder time pursuing action against them, even if you were following the law and they weren't?
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Is that the guide you helped with, Steve, that completely fails to even MENTION bike lanes? Pretty big, glaring oversight....
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,849
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I skimmed through it and only found two annoying things (aside from the nighttime riding being risky bit).

    1. "If you often get honked at, you may be riding too far from the curb for your speed."

    2. "On a very narrow road (10-foot-wide lanes for example), riding near the edge can encourage motorists to pass unsafely. While it won't be fun, the best approach is to ride a straight line far enough from the curb to discourage unsafe passing."

    Honks are a very bad indicator of how proper your lane position is and a much better indicator of how immature the motorist behind you is acting. Taking the center of a narrow lane is much more fun than getting squeezed off the road or clipped by an impatient motorist. Both of those statements could be worded better to have a more positive tone.

    I'd suggest:

    1. Most motorist honks are caused by impatience as cyclists are often going slow than motorized traffic. While riding further left at higher speed is adviseable, if your speed is significantly low enough that edge of the road hazards are easily avoided, you may want to consider moving further right to allow traffic to pass without leaving the lane.

    2. On a very narrow road (10-foot-wide lanes for example), riding near the edge can encourage motorists to pass unsafely. The best approach is to ride a straight line far enough from the curb to discourage unsafe passing. The tradeoff of a few possible honks for a greatly lessened chance of being forced off the road by an ill-advised pass is certainly worth it. In a narrow lane, motorists need to cross the centerline regardless of your lane position so being centered in the lane is not slowing anyone down any more than hugging the edge of the road.

    Or something along those lines

  5. #5
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree 100% with joejack's and zeytoun's comments. Sadly, this is the most positive work NCDOT has ever written about cyclists' road rights. To see our feedback on a much worse work, see this:
    http://humantransport.org/bicycledri...e_critique.pdf

    Bek should note that Streetwise Cycling was originally written before I moved to North Carolina, and although bike lanes are still very rare here today, I cannot think of any at all that would have existed in central NC at the time of writing.

  6. #6
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    I skimmed through it and only found two annoying things (aside from the nighttime riding being risky bit).

    1. "If you often get honked at, you may be riding too far from the curb for your speed."

    2. "On a very narrow road (10-foot-wide lanes for example), riding near the edge can encourage motorists to pass unsafely. While it won't be fun, the best approach is to ride a straight line far enough from the curb to discourage unsafe passing."

    Honks are a very bad indicator of how proper your lane position is and a much better indicator of how immature the motorist behind you is acting. Taking the center of a narrow lane is much more fun than getting squeezed off the road or clipped by an impatient motorist. Both of those statements could be worded better to have a more positive tone.

    I'd suggest:

    1. Most motorist honks are caused by impatience as cyclists are often going slow than motorized traffic. While riding further left at higher speed is adviseable, if your speed is significantly low enough that edge of the road hazards are easily avoided, you may want to consider moving further right to allow traffic to pass without leaving the lane.

    2. On a very narrow road (10-foot-wide lanes for example), riding near the edge can encourage motorists to pass unsafely. The best approach is to ride a straight line far enough from the curb to discourage unsafe passing. The tradeoff of a few possible honks for a greatly lessened chance of being forced off the road by an ill-advised pass is certainly worth it. In a narrow lane, motorists need to cross the centerline regardless of your lane position so being centered in the lane is not slowing anyone down any more than hugging the edge of the road.

    Or something along those lines


    This, folks, is an assessment that could only be produced by a vehicular cyclist, someone who believes, deep down, in his equal right to the road: same rules, same rights.

  7. #7
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    oh well, it sounds like NC doesn't really want to encourage cycling as transportation with bike-specific infrastructure.

    keep the roads the domain of the good ol boys and savvy cyclists ballsy enough, for example, to take the lane in the face of 45 mph traffic with kids in tow- OH, something you DON'T DO for that half mile ride to the ice cream store, steve......
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #8
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    oh well, it sounds like NC doesn't really want to encourage cycling as transportation with bike-specific infrastructure.

    keep the roads the domain of the good ol boys and savvy cyclists ballsy enough, for example, to take the lane in the face of 45 mph traffic with kids in tow- OH, something you DON'T DO for that half mile ride to the ice cream store, steve......
    I've been advocating for better roadway conditions for cyclists for ten years. The state-maintained roads are the ones that could most use cross-section improvement. The local streets could most use connectivity improvement. I am trying to make a difference at the state, county and local levels.

    I also lead beginning rides and try to promote cycling by beginners. Nobody seriously doubts that I want to help more people enjoy cycling. You dishonestly accuse me otherwise only because I don't advocate your favorite marketing technique. Such weak attacks only diminish your credibility.

  9. #9
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    steve, I'm dissing on North Carolina, not you, buddy.

    you dishonestly calling bike specific infrastructure a 'marketing technique' just undermines YOUR cred.

    but I did notice your state doesn't mention it in their biking manual; and the lack of bike specific infrastructure in North carolina will likely keep transportational cycling DOWN in your state, despite your VC-addled analysis.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,849
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    Is that the guide you helped with, Steve, that completely fails to even MENTION bike lanes? Pretty big, glaring oversight....
    What noteable features of bike lanes would you like to see mentioned?

  11. #11
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    you dishonestly calling bike specific infrastructure a 'marketing technique' just undermines YOUR cred.

    but I did notice your state doesn't mention it in their biking manual; and the lack of bike specific infrastructure in North carolina will likely keep transportational cycling DOWN in your state, despite your VC-addled analysis.
    I can't find anyone working in transportation engineering around here who honestly believes that bike lane striping and stencils improve safety over the same amount of total pavement width left as a wide lane, or as a paved shoulder, at least not on normal roads. We simply don't have car-bike overtaking collisions on 15'+ wide lane roads. Even the bike lane proponents have been forced to admit as much. The stencils are generally seen as "encouraging" cycling without making any real operational improvement. That's marketing, any way you slice it.

  12. #12
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    8,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    steve, I'm dissing on North Carolina, not you, buddy.
    No worries

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri
    Here is NCDOT's manual for bicycling on roadways:

    http://www.ncdot.org/transit/bicycle...e_cycling.html

    Does this represent a reasonable description of vehicular cycling? Is there anything disagreeable? Go ahead, tear it apart!

    -Steve
    I've read the traffic-cycling part (10pgs) and the comments given to date. I have a few more, but they are really only minor. For example, the illustrations for Rock Dodge should have the cyclist leaning over. If there is possibility of a new edition, I would work with Steve on them.

  14. #14
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,571
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    I skimmed through it and only found two annoying things (aside from the nighttime riding being risky bit).

    1. "If you often get honked at, you may be riding too far from the curb for your speed."

    2. "On a very narrow road (10-foot-wide lanes for example), riding near the edge can encourage motorists to pass unsafely. While it won't be fun, the best approach is to ride a straight line far enough from the curb to discourage unsafe passing."

    Honks are a very bad indicator of how proper your lane position is and a much better indicator of how immature the motorist behind you is acting. Taking the center of a narrow lane is much more fun than getting squeezed off the road or clipped by an impatient motorist. Both of those statements could be worded better to have a more positive tone.

    I'd suggest:

    1. Most motorist honks are caused by impatience as cyclists are often going slow than motorized traffic. While riding further left at higher speed is adviseable, if your speed is significantly low enough that edge of the road hazards are easily avoided, you may want to consider moving further right to allow traffic to pass without leaving the lane.

    2. On a very narrow road (10-foot-wide lanes for example), riding near the edge can encourage motorists to pass unsafely. The best approach is to ride a straight line far enough from the curb to discourage unsafe passing. The tradeoff of a few possible honks for a greatly lessened chance of being forced off the road by an ill-advised pass is certainly worth it. In a narrow lane, motorists need to cross the centerline regardless of your lane position so being centered in the lane is not slowing anyone down any more than hugging the edge of the road.

    Or something along those lines
    Of course no one will bother telling the motorists all this... So the cyclist, knowing they are clearly in the right, will still have to face untold taunts and harrassment from the "good ole boys" in the area...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •