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Old 05-06-07, 06:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
I'm gonna try Chinese Google first chance I get. I'm gonna see if I can pull up anything significant about Tiennamen Square. My guess is no.
You're really stretching if your analogy means you think bicycle steering displacement tests would be censored on the US internet in the same way information on Tiennamen Square is censored in China. Or are you trying to get this thread moved to P&R?

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Old 05-06-07, 07:02 PM   #27
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Steering displacement analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
How does your Vision R40 SWB/OSS handle during a steering displacement test at speeds of over 40 mph?
John,

I don't have a Vision R40, but I do know that they are a unique bike and can be set up either as SWB/OSS, or LWB/OSS. They can also be set up with underseat steering (USS) in both configurations. There was a great deal of engineering going into those bikes, and I almost bought one but I found out that the company was having trouble. They went under shortly after I did buy a competitor's bike.

I bought a Rans Stratus, after having test rides on probably 20 different recumbant bicycles over a two year period. My wife did not want me to buy a recumbant, because she felt that they did not look good and more people use an upright bike. I told myself that if I had one more problem (I had already had two which I attributed at least in part to the design of an upright), that I'd get a recumbant. About six months later, I did have another problem, on a bike path. My front wheel got caught in a crack in the bike path's wood planking, at low speed of about 8 mph. I thought I could stop, but I went over the handlebars anyway. Talk about instability, that did it. The next week, after settling with the City of Hillsboro (they replaced my bike's front wheel, and made the bike path so that this accident could not happen again), I put money down on my Rans Stratus. I picked it up later that year (2002, I believe) and now have over 6000 miles on it.

You asked about a steering displacement test at 40 mph. As a safety professional, I would not ever ask someone to do this kind of test on their own on the road. That could contribute to an accident, no matter what type of bicycle you ride. My wife has a hybrid by Trek which, when I tested it out near my house, wants to pull further into a turn rather than return to the centerline riding. In other words, it takes active steering once a turn is made to get out of the turn. That is not good, and could contribute to a fall. She still likes the bike, and so far we have not gotten a new one for her.

Concerning steering displacement itself, we can do something on paper which may shed some light on the situation. I just measured my Rans Stratus, and it has a lengeth from the center of the wheel's axle to my handlebar of 36 inches. My wife's hybrid has a measurement of about 12 inches. If we displace the handlebar six inchas at about twelve inches, on paper we got a 26 degree turn of the wheel (I measured using a protractor ). But if we do the same 6 inch displacement of the handlebar for my Rans Stratus, I get only a 4 degree turn of the wheel. It's a distance and lever thing (most engineers would know this too). In other words, displacement of my handlebars on the Rans Stratus is much less of a wheel turning event than the same amount of displacement on my wife's upright hybrid. I have, at something like 25 mph, done a displacement test on my Rans Stratus, and found that it is very stable, even turning the wheel quickly to one side about six inches. This is directly because of the much, much longer wheelbase, and the lower CG on the Stratus.

Concerning balance on a recumbant, it is different, but you can use your weight to alter the CG. I lean by getting off the seat back, and leaning my body to the side at times. Usually, I do this in slow-speed turns on wet, slippery surfaces. I have found that the Stratus is much more stable on slippery surfaces than any of my upright bikes, and in fact rode it in about 4 inches of new snow this last winter; when cars could not get up the short hill by my home, I pedaled along on the sidewalk beside them. If you get into something where the front wheel of the recumbant slides, you can fall. But the fall is much shorter (I'm lower to the ground), and therefore will not produce the injuries that a fall from a higher height would produce.

More later, as I'm about to have supper.

John

Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 05-06-07 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 05-06-07, 07:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
For once, I agree with the elderly bow-tie sporting
pseudo cycling grump, as much as it pains my soul.
Unbefreakinglievable. The elderly-bow-tie-sporting-pseudo-cycling-grump has found agreement with the helmet-cam-wearing-expert-in-everyformofcycling-and-picturetaking-grump.

Wonders never cease.
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Old 05-06-07, 07:14 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randya
You're really stretching if your analogy means you think bicycle steering displacement tests would be censored on the US internet in the same way information on Tiennamen Square is censored in China. Or are you trying to get this thread moved to P&R?

I was wondering who would be the first to seize on this unintended coincidence.

No, no such analogy was intended, thankyouverymuch. The more obvious thing is that Google has its flaws...to say the least.

If it's not on Google, it doesn't exist.
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Old 05-06-07, 07:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
That's probably because you lack the basic skills to pilot a "wedgie" at high speeds.

Just because a five year old can ride a Big Wheel faster downhill compared to a real bike doesn't mean that Big Wheels are the answer to descending quickly.

For once, I agree with the elderly bow-tie sporting pseudo cycling grump, as much as it pains my soul.

wow pete, you spread your words of joy and wisdom all over this place, dont you.
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Old 05-06-07, 07:18 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
More later, as I'm about to have supper.

John
John R., don't you eat in front of the computer, like the rest of us?
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Old 05-06-07, 07:45 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
That's a straw man that you've created there oh timid frightful of riding on roadways squaw.
I find you sexy.
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Old 05-06-07, 07:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
You homosexual comment is a poor cover for your post which was not founded in logic, and refuted by the record (as in posting history).

You're giving Indians (as in "woo woo" indians aka native Americans vs. red dot Indians) a bad name, fraidy cat.
Kiss me, you fool!
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Old 05-06-07, 08:04 PM   #34
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Newblet, your handle/user name is disingenuous and your your "observations" are hilarious.

You must be a riot to know in person. I think I love you.
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Old 05-06-07, 08:08 PM   #35
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As an on again off again Yankees fan, that would be against my religion, you silly twinkie.
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Old 05-06-07, 08:12 PM   #36
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Wow, A&S is the new P&R.

My office has a genuine N.Y. Yankees Ave sign, but I'm not taking sides.
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Old 05-06-07, 08:15 PM   #37
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Wow, A&S is the new P&R.

My office has a genuine N.Y. Yankees Ave sign, but I'm not taking sides.
I lived in Brisbane. Taking sides was not on my agenda at the time.
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Old 05-06-07, 08:22 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
I'm much more irreverent in person, especially towards goofy, tacky, chicks who label themselves as "MILFs."
Who would take the time to get to know you?

Worshippers, perhaps...

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Old 05-06-07, 08:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Hey, if that fantasy makes you feel better about yourself chicken little, I'm happy for you.

Really.
yawn
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Old 05-06-07, 08:26 PM   #40
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pete you got great pics and everything, but your personality sucks
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Old 05-06-07, 08:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
That's probably because you lack the basic skills to pilot a "wedgie" at high speeds.

Just because a five year old can ride a Big Wheel faster downhill compared to a real bike doesn't mean that Big Wheels are the answer to descending quickly.

For once, I agree with the elderly bow-tie sporting pseudo cycling grump, as much as it pains my soul.
I mean I go faster simply coasting. The recumbent goes much faster down hill. Both of them do. I believe that is due to the better wind resistance. All weigh about the same. And on all of them, the gearing limits me to being able to pedal the thing any faster.
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Old 05-06-07, 11:34 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N_C
The thing is on a bicycle the operator is part of the steering system, a major part of it. But let's give the benefit of the doubt here. Has anyone ever heard of a test lab similar to how cars are safety tested? Where the bike could be rigged to a device that propels it along a track to test steering displacement with a test dummie to simulate a humans weight, etc.?
Do bicycle manufacturers do stability test, including steering displacement test?

Yes, many manufacturers do. Some test include riders and some do not and there are different methods of doing different test. Many test are done on roller systems.

A steering displacement or other stability test do not have to be done to full failure (crash).

Have you ever taken a bike and pushed it by the saddle, leaned it left and seen how well the bikes rack controls the bike and then brought the bike upright to see if the rack returns the bike to a straight path. If so, you have conducted a simple stability test.

When I ride bicycles, I do what we are calling a steering displacement test. Not to the point of crashing but enough to tell how stable the bicycle handles. I would rather crash while test riding a bike in an empty parking lot than when riding in the middle of rush hour traffic. Mountain bikers have steering displacement test introduced as a normal part of their off road riding. Such experience helped me avoid crashing when a JAM introduced a steering displacement test on me by hitting my handle bar with his side mirror while traveling at 25 mph on a wet road. (Thank you Trek for doing stability testing).

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Old 05-06-07, 11:59 PM   #43
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Most people would be amazed at the range of testing performed by the major bicycle manufacturers.
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Old 05-07-07, 05:54 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randya
Among diamond frame upright bicycles many varying geometries are possible; steering rake and other design parameters can be wildly different from bike to bike. With recumbents the range in designs is even greater. I don't know how anyone, especially an engineer, can make the types of sweeping generalizations about these two classes of bikes that AJ has made here.
What I was referring to was the Center of Mass being able to be shifted by standing the pedals, and move back and forth forward and back in reference to saddle position dependent on terrain, etc. Not something you can do on a 'bent. Again, I'm not anti 'bent, my wife rides one. It just has limitations under certain circumstances. The DF has limitations under different circumstances. Different job, different tool, as I said!
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Old 05-07-07, 06:52 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
You're giving Indians (as in "woo woo" indians aka native Americans vs. red dot Indians) a bad name...
"Woo woo" Indians?

"Red dot" Indians?
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Old 05-07-07, 07:12 AM   #46
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So that this doesn't get lost in the information sharing that happened subsequent to it's posting, I'm posting it again here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester
How does your Vision R40 SWB/OSS handle during a steering displacement test at speeds of over 40 mph?
John,

I don't have a Vision R40, but I do know that they are a unique bike and can be set up either as SWB/OSS, or LWB/OSS. They can also be set up with underseat steering (USS) in both configurations. There was a great deal of engineering going into those bikes, and I almost bought one but I found out that the company was having trouble. They went under shortly after I did buy a competitor's bike.

I bought a Rans Stratus, after having test rides on probably 20 different recumbant bicycles over a two year period. My wife did not want me to buy a recumbant, because she felt that they did not look good and more people use an upright bike. I told myself that if I had one more problem (I had already had two which I attributed at least in part to the design of an upright), that I'd get a recumbant. About six months later, I did have another problem, on a bike path. My front wheel got caught in a crack in the bike path's wood planking, at low speed of about 8 mph. I thought I could stop, but I went over the handlebars anyway. Talk about instability, that did it. The next week, after settling with the City of Hillsboro (they replaced my bike's front wheel, and made the bike path so that this accident could not happen again), I put money down on my Rans Stratus. I picked it up later that year (2002, I believe) and now have over 6000 miles on it.

You asked about a steering displacement test at 40 mph. As a safety professional, I would not ever ask someone to do this kind of test on their own on the road. That could contribute to an accident, no matter what type of bicycle you ride. My wife has a hybrid by Trek which, when I tested it out near my house, wants to pull further into a turn rather than return to the centerline riding. In other words, it takes active steering once a turn is made to get out of the turn. That is not good, and could contribute to a fall. She still likes the bike, and so far we have not gotten a new one for her.

Concerning steering displacement itself, we can do something on paper which may shed some light on the situation. I just measured my Rans Stratus, and it has a lengeth from the center of the wheel's axle to my handlebar of 36 inches. My wife's hybrid has a measurement of about 12 inches. If we displace the handlebar six inchas at about twelve inches, on paper we got a 26 degree turn of the wheel (I measured using a protractor ). But if we do the same 6 inch displacement of the handlebar for my Rans Stratus, I get only a 4 degree turn of the wheel. It's a distance and lever thing (most engineers would know this too). In other words, displacement of my handlebars on the Rans Stratus is much less of a wheel turning event than the same amount of displacement on my wife's upright hybrid. I have, at something like 25 mph, done a displacement test on my Rans Stratus, and found that it is very stable, even turning the wheel quickly to one side about six inches. This is directly because of the much, much longer wheelbase, and the lower CG on the Stratus.

Concerning balance on a recumbant, it is different, but you can use your weight to alter the CG. I lean by getting off the seat back, and leaning my body to the side at times. Usually, I do this in slow-speed turns on wet, slippery surfaces. I have found that the Stratus is much more stable on slippery surfaces than any of my upright bikes, and in fact rode it in about 4 inches of new snow this last winter; when cars could not get up the short hill by my home, I pedaled along on the sidewalk beside them. If you get into something where the front wheel of the recumbant slides, you can fall. But the fall is much shorter (I'm lower to the ground), and therefore will not produce the injuries that a fall from a higher height would produce.

More later, as I'm about to have supper.

John
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Old 05-07-07, 08:21 AM   #47
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Certainly recumbents are not mountain biking machines. You can ride them quite easily on unpaved surfaces as long as they are relatively smooth -- not rocky or excessively steep. But you'd be just as crazy to try mountain biking with a lightweight road bike under those conditions.

The thing to understand about recumbents is they are just different. It's like how they have all these different kinds of skate boards now. Just another fun bicycle to have in your stable. I've got 3 kinds of bikes now -- trike, recumbent, commuter upright mountain bike -- and think maybe I should have more kinds.
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Old 05-07-07, 08:28 AM   #48
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Recumbent is for wussy.
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Old 05-07-07, 10:03 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
Ahh, Google...the new Encyclopedia Brittanica.



If it's not on Google, does it exist? Philosophically speaking, like the proverbial tree falling in the woods, if nobody hears it, did it make a noise?

I'm gonna try Chinese Google first chance I get. I'm gonna see if I can pull up anything significant about Tiennamen Square. My guess is no.
I didn't follow your entire thread, but the first thing on Google when I did the "Tiananmen Square" search was this bit on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananm...otests_of_1989

Which includes this pic:

Now on the flip side I can tell you that when I was in China a few years ago I did some interesting searches using my computer in a hotel, and discovered a number of things that appeared to be blocked... which I had no problem accessing when I used a VPN connection to my home office in the US and then searched again. I had both windows open on my PC... it was rather enlightening.
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Old 05-07-07, 12:59 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Certainly recumbents are not mountain biking machines. You can ride them quite easily on unpaved surfaces as long as they are relatively smooth -- not rocky or excessively steep. But you'd be just as crazy to try mountain biking with a lightweight road bike under those conditions.

The thing to understand about recumbents is they are just different. It's like how they have all these different kinds of skate boards now. Just another fun bicycle to have in your stable. I've got 3 kinds of bikes now -- trike, recumbent, commuter upright mountain bike -- and think maybe I should have more kinds.
I think that was what I said, Di!

Like I said, the wife rides a 'bent!

Good news, 3 days to our UP tour! Woohoo!
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