John Forester

I suppose that feeling yourself to be risk-averse is part of the discomfort. The risk of actual violence is minute; there is no real risk from harassment. When you recognize that the harassing motorist has far less traffic knowledge than you have and is (dare I use this word in this forum?) ignorant and uncouth, the amount of discomfort is much less.

genec

I used to ride to the Navy base on 32nd street. The sailors didn't give me as much of a hard time as the folks out in town... Out in town, I always had to "fight" for room on the streets.

Helmet Head

Mr. Forester understates the liberating effect of the realization that he alludes to here.

The first time you react to honking or yelling as a good thing -- that they're letting you know that they see you -- and so you smile, nod, and/or wave back , in a genuinely friendly manner, then you will know you are starting to understand, and that you're beginning to feel like a driver, with equal rights, inwardly, which is the hallmark of a vehicular cyclist.

genec

LOL Beyond Schwinn, I don't believe America has ever had an "American built" bike... oh sure Trek frames used to be made in the US... but we have never made a grouppo. Italian and Japanese have dominated that market.

As far as Detroit... perhaps if they saw beyond the Hummer, and tried to actually build an economical practical car...

sggoodri

Even if a physical threat is empty, it is still unlawful. I think the discomfort from harassment is even less when a cyclist experiences positive reinforcement from law enforcement officers, who take these concerns seriously enough to act upon them. Road rage hotlines and police officers who are sensitive to cyclists' concerns give cyclists a sense that they can do something positive to improve conditions for cyclists after something happens.

As vehicular cycling advocates, our goal is for law enforcement officers to respond to a cyclist's complaint of harassment with "it's our job to help protect your right to use the road" and not "you should probably go ride your bike somewhere else - how about the park?" I think police can mitigate the attempts of some motorists to instill in cyclists an inferior sense of entitlement - or, they can exacerbate it. This in turn can affect cyclists' willingness to use convenient routes, and ultimately affect the popularity of cycling transportation.

genec

Really John... you actually think that there is no real risk from harassment? What about the woman doored here several years ago while climbing Torrey Pines grade... what about bottles and cans thrown from moving cars... might they cause physical damage if they strike you. (Fortunatly those "less than knowledgeable motorists" usually fail to compensate for inertia, in their aim). But the fact is, some form of harassment can hurt you. The other fact is that motorists don't tend to experience similar harrasment.

N_C

Is this based on your personal experience? Or is this a known fact all across the nation? If it apply's all across the U.S. I take that to mean you have ridden in all areas of the country to base your opinion on that? In other words where is your proof & evidence this is the case in all areas across the U.S.? Show some statistics if you have them. Or state this is based on your personal experience in your geographical area.

My experience has proven, time & again, I am better off & get honked at, yelled at, et al less when I behave in an adaptive manner, or AC instead of strictly VC in accordance with yours or JF's doctrine & method of advised riding. I can only apply this in the areas I've ridden bike in.

They include:

Iowa: the area I live in, central Iowa, areas I have ridden in on RAGBRAI since 1998.
South Dakota: the area I near, Sioux Falls, the Black Hills area, Yankton area, Vermillion area.
Wyoming: area around Devils Tower.
Nebraska: area I live near.
Hawaii: area in & around Hononlulu.
Illinois: the area in & around De Pue & La Salle/Peru.

I would NEVER presume to claim Adaptive Cycling would apply in any area except the areas I have ridden in. But you seem to have no problem making a general statment that VC would apply to to all areas.

N_C

WTF is risk averse? Sounds like another bull**** term made up by Forester.

John before you state another term will you please give us a list of these with their definitions? Seriously it sounds like you're making this crap up as you go along.

Correction here is what I found on risk averse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion

I am not sure if this is what JF means by it though. John please explain how this apply's to cycling. How in the hell does economics, finance & psychology apply in the context in which Diane is talking about here? Are you a financial, economics or even a psychology expert? Do you hold degrees in any of those fields? Have you ever worked in any of those fields as your vocation?

sggoodri

Risk aversion is a common term used in examining decisions made by different populations, for example, people likely to move into a gritty downtown area that is starting to become revitalized, versus people who want to live on a no-surprises suburban cul-de-sac.

Risk aversion and risk perception are two different things, of course. Risk-averse people may underestimate the risk of things they do every day without thought, and risk-seeking people may overestimate the danger of things that they choose because they seem dangerous.

Back when I was a risk-seeker, I did a lot of urban roadway cycling, assuming that I'd probably get hit, but I never did. Just a lot of harassment, which made me overestimate the danger I was facing.

Now that I am risk-averse, I also do a lot of urban roadway cycling, but I don't worry about it, because I learned not to.

Helmet Head

Mr. Forester clearly differentiated harassment from actual violence. What you cite are example of actual violence, despite the occasional existence of which, the risk is minute.

Helmet Head

It is based on personal experience mostly in California and the fact that it is consistent with reports from LCIs and vehicular cyclists all over the country.

What do you mean by "strictly VC"? Here's what I think of it, from the Some VC Definitions OP:

Certainly VC works in all areas in the U.S. I'm quite sure I would have heard of an area in the U.S. where it didn't work if there was such an area.

Helmet Head

Do you really believe you have to be an economics or psychology expert to speak of risk aversion? It's sad that you've never heard of it until now. How old are you? Do you read a newspaper? A weekly news magazine like Time or Newsweek?

natelutkjohn

Then you are lucky - I'd wager the fact that the Naval base here is so huge, it supplies our area with many more times the amout of young, cocky sailors then the area you are talking about.

Helmet Head

How huge is it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Pendleton

John Forester

NC, now you must be really angry!

I used the term "risk-averse" precisely in answer to sbhikes's own statement about herself:

"Originally Posted by sbhikes
What if you are a risk-averse individual who doesn't feel it's worth the hassle? I mean you know you have a right to the road. You really want to ride your bike. But add all that motorist harassment and threats of actual violence on top of your already stressful work day and what is the point?"

Possibly, NC, you desire to question sbhikes's qualifications for using this phrase? I'm sure that she would appreciate the irony of such questioning.

By the way, although it was long ago, I taught graduate and senior students about risks as involved in business decisions, advanced the field somewhat, and even wrote a text on the subject.

Helmet Head

And who said Forester doesn't have a sense of humor?

natelutkjohn

you filthy dog you .... but seriously


https://www.jfcom.mil/newcomer/newcomer2.htm

But keep in mind, average daily miles bicycled will add greatly to your exposure to impatient motorists



or


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Roads

pj7

While having a bottle, can or other item thrown at you from a moving car is a form of violence, it is also harassment. Now don't go and get all Wall of Words on me here. Any attack on someone can be defined as harassment wether it be physical or mental.
Harassment leads to violence, would you not agree? Maybe not 100% of the time but the fact remains that harassment leads to violence.
Thus the risk from harassment is violence, and that sir, is not minute, but a real threat that though maybe not common where you live, is very common in other places. And I think I may know just a little bit more on this subject than you.

Helmet Head

Well, share with us, please, Mr. "know just a little bit more on this subject".

Of the 700-800 U.S. deaths per year, how many are caused by harrassment that lead to violence?

Of the non-fatal bicyclist injuries suffered per year, about what non-minute percent is caused by harrassment that lead to violence?

LittleBigMan

I've gotten a few forms of abuse, but they are rare. I remember one time in particular that a motorist honked and yelled at me for riding in the street, because I had to leave the bike lane to avoid a pothole I knew was there because I reported it a couple days before. I had no idea they had filled it in 24 hours after I reported it, but neither did the motorist know it was there in the first place. And, yes, I merged in plenty of time.

I've also had two cases of "get on the path" when I refused to ride on a path that had a stop sign at every intersection and also at driveway after driveway. I guess this design puts motorists at the top of the heap.

But I've also had some walnut honk or cuss and tell me, "You're not a car" when I was riding the road, no facilities anywhere in sight. Another fav--"Get on the sidewalk."

But I have to be honest--on the road, I've had just as many (if not more) positive comments while riding the road:

"How far do you ride? Wow, I admire what you do."

"I see you almost every day. I always leave you lots of room, and I tap my horn lightly to let you know I'm coming up from behind." (I never told this lady the horn part wasn't necessary. I just smiled and thanked her.)

"<thumbs up>"

"Yaaah! Go, dude!! <thumbs up>"

Plus, people waving me ahead, waving, etc.

I'm just telling it like I've experienced it. Of course, to be honest, most people at work, face-to-face, including my best and nicest friends, have all expressed their concern for my well-being "riding on the street with the cars."

Funny thing is, I've known folks at work who drive cars to get seriously injured, but I haven't on my bike. I've even heard, twice, cars screeching before crashing into other vehicles, all while riding to work. (No, I didn't cause those... )

Helmet Head

Ah, more evidence of the widespread prevalance of "The Notion": the belief that it is inherently dangerous to ride a bike in traffic; that cyclists, not matter what they do, are sitting ducks "out there".

Bike lanes reinforce The Notion (If the The Notion is not true... why do we need bike lanes?)

Vehicular Cycling, the Practice, Theory and Philosophy, is the only antidote.

N_C

No, I questions your qualifications for using these phrases.

You know what they say, right? Those that can't do, teach. I don't think you can do, maybe you ought to go back to teaching. Just tell me what school so I can avoid taking online classes while I am getting my Bachelors in Telecommunications then hopefully my Masters.

pj7

Everyone in here who has been in incarcerated for the harassment and death of another human being please raise their hand.
........................................................................
................................................
.............
What, just me?
I rest my case
pj"knows just a little bit more on this subject"7

chipcom 

You gotta consider that many military folks commute by bike, as I did - indeed the percentage is probably higher than the percentage of the general population. During my years it was always the townies and dependents who gave me the most grief...not the folks in uniform.

pj7

First you tell me how many are not!
Oh, did I just turn your challenge around on you and refuse to answer until you answer mine? Hrm... wonder who else does this.

We aren't talking about hard statistics here, we are talking about this statement:
And I'm telling you that this is a nonsensical statement. Harassment is a risk! A risk that sometimes leads to violence. We don't have the statistics that you are seeking with your Wall of Words question, they just don't exist! But out there in the real world, when one person harasses another, more often than not it turns into some form of violence, and not all violence is physical, words and actions themselves can be violent.
Here is an example to think of:
You are cycling along, concentrating hard on your cadence, up in front, in the bushes are some kids with firecrackers. As soon as you pass they set them off and toss them in your direction. POP POP POP POP! You lose oyur concentration, become confused, and plow into something, causing damage.
There you have it, a risk from harassment.

[EDIT]
Before you even reply to this with your Headspeak and Wall of Words remember that the statement we are talking about is