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Thread: What is VC?

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    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    What is VC?

    fanatics, enthusiasts, true believers and just plain folks: please post your definitions of VC here for those poor souls who might be wondering. please be succinct. if you can't be succinct, just be brief and to the point.

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    good question,you're not alone,I'll wait for an answer.

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    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    I don't care about VC. I just want to get from A to B without having to stop-and-go every 30 seconds.

    And I want to go to as many destinations as possible.

    And I want the same right-of-way as motorists.

    And I want to save on gas.

    And I want to save on parking.

    And I want to stay fit as long as possible.

    And I want to keep riding my bike...
    No worries

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    VC is a backdrop for selling books and making yourself feel better, smarter, and more important than the other 99.99% of cyclist on the road who follow the rules.
    I am a sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate.

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    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Dang.

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    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    be still grasshopper and all will be revealed in time

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    VC is following the rules of the road as they apply to vehicles.

    Which means generally following the laws and customs, when they are consistent to some basic traffic flow principles, like drive on the right (or left in some countries), slower traffic on the right, be destination oriented etc.

    If a law contradicts your personal interpretation of those traffic flow principles, vc says feel free break it. (keep in mind this is not Civil Disobedience, which requires drawing law enforcement attention to the infraction, and accepting punishment). For example, you may ride in a bike lane, but only coincidentally because you are ignoring that lane. If the traffic flow principles move you out of the BL, so be it, even if you have a Bike Lane law that does not allow for exceptions.

    Of course, you can violate any of those traffic flow principles or laws, provided you know the reasons behind it, accept the risks involved, have a legitimate (to you) reason, and think carefully first.
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    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Vehicular cycling is the operation of a bicycle according to the basic rules that apply to all drivers of vehicles. The specific wording of law varies slightly from state to state, but because the basic principles are the same, people can generally drive their vehicles from state to state without crashing into each other despite not knowing the differences in wording. The basic principles of vehicular traffic law are as follows:

    1. First come, first served. Each driver on the road is entitled to a "safety zone", i.e. the space their vehicle occupies, plus reasonable clearance behind and to each side, and reasonable stopping distance in front of them. Other drivers who want to use this space must first yield to the driver already entitled to it. This principle applies both between intersections and at intersections. Yielding to traffic already on the road ahead requires driving slowly enough to stop if traffic just beyond view is slow or stopped, and not following too closely in case traffic ahead stops suddenly.

    Cyclists operating on roadways usually travel slower than motorists, but motorists are expected to drive within their sight distance and not collide with slower traffic. Sober, competent motorists have no trouble avoiding such collisions. Cyclists are not expected to get out of the way of motorists; cyclists are only expected to stay visible and behave predictably. Motorists should pass cyclists at safe distance: at least three feet at slow speeds; farther at higher speeds.


    2. Drive on the right-hand side of the roadway.

    Wrong-way cycling is a leading cause of car-bike crashes.

    3. Yielding to crossing traffic. Drivers on less important roads, and that includes driveways and alleys, yield to traffic on more important roads. Yielding means looking and waiting until the movement can be made without violating the right of way of other highway users. Drivers turning left must also yield to thru traffic traveling in the opposite direction on the road. Traffic signals or signs often indicate which road has priority.

    Most car-bike collisions occur at intersections, where either cyclists or motorists fail to yield when required to traffic crossing their path.


    4. Yielding when moving laterally. Drivers who want to move laterally on the roadway must yield to traffic in their new line of travel. Yielding means looking behind, to the side, and in front and waiting until the movement can be made without violating the right of way of other highway users.

    Cyclists should travel reasonably straight in order to allow other road users to pass safely. Yielding prior to lateral movement requires that a cyclist turn her head and look behind without swerving into other traffic.

    5. Destination positioning at intersections. Drivers must approach intersections (including driveways) in the proper position based on their destination. Right turning-drivers make their turns from next to the curb, left turning drivers do so from near the center line, straight traffic goes between these positions.

    Bicycle drivers communicate their intended destination through appropriate positioning; hand signals are not enough. Turning left without first approaching the center of the road invites conflicts with straight-traveling drivers who may attempt to pass on the left. Straight-traveling cyclists should avoid right-turn lanes and use the thru-lane instead.

    6. Speed positioning between intersections. Drivers park on the rightmost edge of the highway. Drivers travel in a portion of the right side of the roadway that is wide enough for them to maneuver safely and is available for thru-traffic. Where safe and practical, slower drivers operate far enough to the right to allow faster drivers to see past them and perhaps pass when it is safe to do so. Drivers should overtake slower traffic on the left, not on the right. (There are exceptions when vehicles are turning left, on multi-lane roads, and on one-way roads).

    In narrow lanes, drivers of wide vehicles must move into the adjacent lane to pass cyclists. In wide lanes, a motorist and a cyclist may have enough room to share a lane as the motorist passes. Cyclists should not ride too far right to operate safely for their speed.

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    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Thanks, that's pretty good!
    No worries

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    Thanks all , I understand now,makes sense.

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    VC- riding according to the rules of the road.

    VC riding can include riding in bike lanes, on the shoulders of high speed roads, etc.

    However, the more I see the LCI "instructors" certified in cities to "teach" "VC" riding, the more I think it's a blatant pyramid scheme. a pathetic pyramid to sell a program.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-12-07 at 11:55 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri
    Vehicular cycling is the operation of a bicycle according to the basic rules that apply to all drivers of vehicles. The specific wording of law varies slightly from state to state, but because the basic principles are the same, people can generally drive their vehicles from state to state without crashing into each other despite not knowing the differences in wording. The basic principles of vehicular traffic law are as follows:

    1. First come, first served. Each driver on the road is entitled to a "safety zone", i.e. the space their vehicle occupies, plus reasonable clearance behind and to each side, and reasonable stopping distance in front of them. Other drivers who want to use this space must first yield to the driver already entitled to it. This principle applies both between intersections and at intersections. Yielding to traffic already on the road ahead requires driving slowly enough to stop if traffic just beyond view is slow or stopped, and not following too closely in case traffic ahead stops suddenly.

    Cyclists operating on roadways usually travel slower than motorists, but motorists are expected to drive within their sight distance and not collide with slower traffic. Sober, competent motorists have no trouble avoiding such collisions. Cyclists are not expected to get out of the way of motorists; cyclists are only expected to stay visible and behave predictably. Motorists should pass cyclists at safe distance: at least three feet at slow speeds; farther at higher speeds.


    2. Drive on the right-hand side of the roadway.

    Wrong-way cycling is a leading cause of car-bike crashes.

    3. Yielding to crossing traffic. Drivers on less important roads, and that includes driveways and alleys, yield to traffic on more important roads. Yielding means looking and waiting until the movement can be made without violating the right of way of other highway users. Drivers turning left must also yield to thru traffic traveling in the opposite direction on the road. Traffic signals or signs often indicate which road has priority.

    Most car-bike collisions occur at intersections, where either cyclists or motorists fail to yield when required to traffic crossing their path.


    4. Yielding when moving laterally. Drivers who want to move laterally on the roadway must yield to traffic in their new line of travel. Yielding means looking behind, to the side, and in front and waiting until the movement can be made without violating the right of way of other highway users.

    Cyclists should travel reasonably straight in order to allow other road users to pass safely. Yielding prior to lateral movement requires that a cyclist turn her head and look behind without swerving into other traffic.

    5. Destination positioning at intersections. Drivers must approach intersections (including driveways) in the proper position based on their destination. Right turning-drivers make their turns from next to the curb, left turning drivers do so from near the center line, straight traffic goes between these positions.

    Bicycle drivers communicate their intended destination through appropriate positioning; hand signals are not enough. Turning left without first approaching the center of the road invites conflicts with straight-traveling drivers who may attempt to pass on the left. Straight-traveling cyclists should avoid right-turn lanes and use the thru-lane instead.

    6. Speed positioning between intersections. Drivers park on the rightmost edge of the highway. Drivers travel in a portion of the right side of the roadway that is wide enough for them to maneuver safely and is available for thru-traffic. Where safe and practical, slower drivers operate far enough to the right to allow faster drivers to see past them and perhaps pass when it is safe to do so. Drivers should overtake slower traffic on the left, not on the right. (There are exceptions when vehicles are turning left, on multi-lane roads, and on one-way roads).

    In narrow lanes, drivers of wide vehicles must move into the adjacent lane to pass cyclists. In wide lanes, a motorist and a cyclist may have enough room to share a lane as the motorist passes. Cyclists should not ride too far right to operate safely for their speed.
    Ah, the sacred tablets!

    Until the motorists are reeducated to clearly understand and observe #1 when it comes to cyclists on the road, offering the rest of this advice is sorta like pissing into the wind.

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    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Until the motorists are reeducated to clearly understand and observe #1 when it comes to cyclists on the road, offering the rest of this advice is sorta like pissing into the wind.
    Care to help us with #1?

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    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    VC- riding according to the rules of the road.

    VC riding can include riding in bike lanes, on the shoulders of high speed roads, etc.

    However, the more I see the LCI "instructors" certified in cities to "teach" "VC" riding, the more I think it's a blatant pyramid scheme. a pathetic pyramid to sell a program.
    I don't think so at all. I think they do it because they love it, and they want to pass on the love of cycling to others. Certainly, the more people that feel confident riding in traffic, the more potential cyclists there will be.

    Pyramid schemes typically make a few people rich at the expense of most participants. Instead, people that learn to master riding in traffic are now potentially richer individuals.

    Sort of like an upside-down pyramid...
    No worries

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    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
    I don't think so at all. I think they do it because they love it, and they want to pass on the love of cycling to others. Certainly, the more people that feel confident riding in traffic, the more potential cyclists there will be.

    Pyramid schemes typically make a few people rich at the expense of most participants. Instead, people that learn to master riding in traffic are now potentially richer individuals.

    Sort of like an upside-down pyramid...
    I just finished (co-)teaching my first LAB Road 1 class this weekend. I spent nine hours of class time over three days, plus a few hours of preparation, in order to hear five students, all women, tell me how much they enjoyed the class and how much they think it helped them develop the confidence they need to ride more places more often, and the skill to do it more comfortably and conveniently. Two of them want to upgrade their bikes to models that are lighter and easier to pedal, after test-riding other students' bikes. All of them said they will recommend the class to friends.

    My monetary earning from the class: $0. The feeling of empowering cyclists: priceless.

    -Steve Goodridge, Ph.D. electrical engineer
    Last edited by sggoodri; 05-13-07 at 11:11 PM.

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri
    1. First come, first served. Each driver on the road is entitled to a "safety zone", i.e. the space their vehicle occupies, plus reasonable clearance behind and to each side, and reasonable stopping distance in front of them. Other drivers who want to use this space must first yield to the driver already entitled to it. This principle applies both between intersections and at intersections. Yielding to traffic already on the road ahead requires driving slowly enough to stop if traffic just beyond view is slow or stopped, and not following too closely in case traffic ahead stops suddenly.

    Cyclists operating on roadways usually travel slower than motorists, but motorists are expected to drive within their sight distance and not collide with slower traffic. Sober, competent motorists have no trouble avoiding such collisions. Cyclists are not expected to get out of the way of motorists; cyclists are only expected to stay visible and behave predictably. Motorists should pass cyclists at safe distance: at least three feet at slow speeds; farther at higher speeds.
    Until the motorists are reeducated to clearly understand and observe #1 when it comes to cyclists on the road, offering the rest of this advice is sorta like pissing into the wind.
    To answer the question, What is VC?, in the context of Randya's comment...
    VC is understanding that there is no need to reeducate motorists to clearly understand and observe #1 when it comes to cyclists on the road in order to cause drivers to treat a cyclist as if he is entitled to a "safety zone". The reason for this is that simply riding as if you are entitled to a "safety zone" achieves this, at least with the vast majority of drivers out there (for the rare exceptions, it's doubtful "reeducation" would have any effect). Of course, before you can do that, you have to believe, inwardly, that you are entitled. That, in a nutshell, is VC, for everything else follows from that inward belief.

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    I like Steve's dogma-free definition - HH's just proves that his vc brand is more about dogma than practicality. "Think inward my son"
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    VC is understanding that there is no need to reeducate motorists to clearly understand and observe #1 when it comes to cyclists on the road in order to cause drivers to treat a cyclist as if he is entitled to a "safety zone".
    This is naive about the knowledge of motorists of the traffic law, imho. A more reasonable approach would be to control as much driver behavior as you can by your own behavior, and supplement with driver education.

    Do you really imagine that drivers understand (or even know) the law? Many cars will see you as a bicycle whether or not you act like a vehicle. It activates a binary fight/flight response, and unless they are a rational operator, many will pass you. Some, even when you are taking the lane 25 feet from a stop sign. That doesn't mean I cease to ride vehicularly. It means that a driver is uneducated, and about to get a lecture.

    Didn't you recently post about a car getting pulled over and "eductated" by the police officer? Didn't you support and try to improve that education?

    I think Randya's point was that, given the lack of airbags and rollbars on bicycles, repeatedly telling cyclists this point is of little value, if you are not also educating drivers.... do you disagree with this idea?
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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    This is naive about the knowledge of motorists of the traffic law, imho. A more reasonable approach would be to control as much driver behavior as you can by your own behavior, and supplement with driver education.
    I'm fine with supplementing with driver education.

    I disagree with what I understood to be Randy's contention: that until driver's are "reeducated", educating cyclists is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    Until the motorists are reeducated to clearly understand and observe #1 when it comes to cyclists on the road, offering the rest of this advice is sorta like pissing into the wind.
    Do you really imagine that drivers understand (or even know) the law?
    To a large extent they do, with respect to cyclist rights I'm sure it's very fuzzy (I know it's fuzzy among cyclists, and even police officers). But I find it to be very easy to let them know what they need to know while I'm "out there" in traffic through my own behavior.

    Many cars will see you as a bicycle whether or not you act like a vehicle. It activates a binary fight/flight response, and unless they are a rational operator, many will pass you. Some, even when you are taking the lane 25 feet from a stop sign. That doesn't mean I cease to ride vehicularly. It means that a driver is uneducated, and about to get a lecture.
    The terms "many" "rational" and "some" are nebulous and subjective. I don't mean that as a criticism. My point is that the cyclist can significantly affect, through his own behavior, how "many" will or will not act in a way that appears to be "rational" with respect to your presence. By adopting VC I have been able to reduce my encounters with "some" to be so rare as to be a nonissue in my cycling.

    Didn't you recently post about a car getting pulled over and "eductated" by the police officer? Didn't you support and try to improve that education?
    Yes, it happens, like the geezer who honked at me and got pulled over by an officer, but those events are so rare (weeks if not months apart) that they do not affect me in terms of my enjoyment of cycling or choice to engage in it.


    I think Randya's point was that, given the lack of airbags and rollbars on bicycles, repeatedly telling cyclists this point is of little value, if you are not also educating drivers.... do you disagree with this idea?
    Yes, I disagree with this idea, assuming "educating drivers" means "educating them more than they are already being educated today". Of course I believe drivers need education. But, based on how they drive everywhere I go, it seems like they are educated.

    Cyclists, on the other hand, ride like they are not educated at all. If you pick car drivers at random, you can follow them for a long time, perhaps hours, maybe days, before they do something blatantly wrong. Most cyclists I observe do something wrong within minutes, if not seconds.

    Relatively speaking, I believe there is very little room for improvement with education for car drivers, and huge amount of room for improvement with cyclists. I, for one, don't need the drivers out there to improve at all for me to be safe riding in traffic, even with my daugher on the trailercycle behind me.

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    VC is understanding that there is no need to reeducate motorists to clearly understand and observe #1 when it comes to cyclists on the road in order to cause drivers to treat a cyclist as if he is entitled to a "safety zone".
    I'm fine with supplementing with driver education.
    I take it that you are ok with supplementing driver education, not because it's needed, but because you don't see it as a bad thing. Am I correct?

    I guess to know more conclusively where to best spend our resources to reduce cyclist death, we would need some statistics to show whether cyclist/auto collisions tend to be primarily caused by the car driver, or the cyclist. And then we would need to know whether the at-fault party's actions were contributed to by insufficient education on the rules. If, for example we found that most accidents were caused by uneducated cyclists, we would want to spend a greater share of our resources educating cyclists on the law. And if we found that it was car drivers, we would want to educate them, right?

    Cyclists, on the other hand, ride like they are not educated at all.
    Cyclists that read the VC subforum? Or cyclists on the road who don't likely read bicycle-related material online?

    I certainly agree, by the way, that many cyclists seriously lack education. Dangerously so.

    However, if you contend that it is the cyclists that are in the need of the most education, then you would likely also agree that it would be smart to determine two things: who needs it the most, and how to best reach those cyclists, right?

    Now, generally, statistics show that the biggest risk factors are drunk cycling, wrong way cycling, not wearing lights at night. These are subjects on which there is consensus.

    What percentage of the VC subforum do you imagine behave this way?

    How can you better reach these cyclists with a campaign of education? Will having a VC class that a person seeks out (via internet search, or word of mouth at club rides) be likely to help the guy who rides his bike wrong way without lights because that's what he was told was safest by someone else?

    Lane positioning is a much more subtle variable, compared to the above variables. Studies show very limited consensus, and only on a few ideas (like hugging the curb at intersections, adjacent MUPs with intersections). But when it comes to whether a foot or two left or right changes car driver behavior... it's speculative, and if we agree that it's useful, it's still a much smaller variable in the survival rate of a cyclist then the other above-mentioned variables. Do you agree or disagree?

    By adopting VC I have been able to reduce my encounters with "some" to be so rare as to be a nonissue in my cycling.
    I have been able to reduce mine. However, I have not been able to eliminate my encounters. I have done my share. I ride vc.

    Of course, I continue to educate myself, because I hold my life as the most valuable to me. But if I am looking to save other cyclist's lives, I imagine I would get more bang-for-my-buck by finding some way to bring some education to the least educated and most dangerous cyclists.

    And if I weren't willing to do this, I wouldn't consider myself an advocate at all. And if I were only willing to advocate things that made improvements to the fastest cyclists, or the ones with the lightest or most expensive bikes, then I would consider myself an elitist advocate. And if I only advocate things that improve my situation directly, I would consider myself a cyclist, not an advocate.

    Or do you imagine that Bike Lanes are the primary cause of wrong way, unlit cyclists?
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    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Cyclists, on the other hand, ride like they are not educated at all.......I, for one, don't need the drivers out there to improve at all for me to be safe riding in traffic, even with my daugher on the trailercycle behind me.

    Ahhh, it's great to see HH back to his old habit of classifiying cyclists other then him and his cronies as uneducated morons who have no clue what they are doing. Also, do you really consider riding with your daughter in the trailer even close the same as riding solo? You are getting treated like a king out there compared to the rest of us with a kid next to you. If you think that cars treat people on bikes with kids in trailers even remotely the same as people on bikes without kids along for the ride..... then you aren't the right person to be telling me how to ride my bicycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
    Ahhh, it's great to see HH back to his old habit of classifiying cyclists other then him and his cronies as uneducated morons who have no clue what they are doing. Also, do you really consider riding with your daughter in the trailer even close the same as riding solo? You are getting treated like a king out there compared to the rest of us with a kid next to you. If you think that cars treat people on bikes with kids in trailers even remotely the same as people on bikes without kids along for the ride..... then you aren't the right person to be telling me how to ride my bicycle.
    When I first started riding with a kid trailer, i noticed a marked change in treatment between solo riding and with-kid riding.

    But now that I ride VC when solo, the difference is almost imperceptible, but that's because I now get treated so much better when riding solo. In fact, the worst treatment I've gotten in years happened a few weeks ago with daughter in tow. Luckily, a cop witnessed it and pulled over the guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    I take it that you are ok with supplementing driver education, not because it's needed, but because you don't see it as a bad thing. Am I correct?
    I don't know if it's "needed". That would require knowing how much improvement we could reasonably expect for X amount of education. My sense is it would not be significant. But, except for the cost, I don't see how it could hurt.

    I guess to know more conclusively where to best spend our resources to reduce cyclist death, we would need some statistics to show whether cyclist/auto collisions tend to be primarily caused by the car driver, or the cyclist. And then we would need to know whether the at-fault party's actions were contributed to by insufficient education on the rules. If, for example we found that most accidents were caused by uneducated cyclists, we would want to spend a greater share of our resources educating cyclists on the law. And if we found that it was car drivers, we would want to educate them, right?
    Yes.


    Cyclists that read the VC subforum? Or cyclists on the road who don't likely read bicycle-related material online?
    I don't know how cyclists on this forum ride. I do know that people who claim to understand and ride VC, often end up merging left much later than I do, etc. I do know people who get doored claim they weren't riding in the door zone. But I'm going by cyclists that I see.

    I certainly agree, by the way, that many cyclists seriously lack education. Dangerously so.

    However, if you contend that it is the cyclists that are in the need of the most education, then you would likely also agree that it would be smart to determine two things: who needs it the most, and how to best reach those cyclists, right?
    I agree it would be smart to determine that, yes. However, it's not required. If all we can do for now is offer it to those who are willing and interested, then that's better than nothing.

    Now, generally, statistics show that the biggest risk factors are drunk cycling, wrong way cycling, not wearing lights at night. These are subjects on which there is consensus.

    What percentage of the VC subforum do you imagine behave this way?
    Hopefully very little. But, again, I don't know.

    How can you better reach these cyclists with a campaign of education? Will having a VC class that a person seeks out (via internet search, or word of mouth at club rides) be likely to help the guy who rides his bike wrong way without lights because that's what he was told was safest by someone else?
    I believe we need a cultural change - in terms of how cyclists act and treated - before the ones who need it the most can probably be reached. In order to start bring about such a change, I suspect we probably need to convince people like members of this subforum that we need such a change. IThat's why it's frustrating to encounter so much resistance here.

    Lane positioning is a much more subtle variable, compared to the above variables. Studies show very limited consensus, and only on a few ideas (like hugging the curb at intersections, adjacent MUPs with intersections). But when it comes to whether a foot or two left or right changes car driver behavior... it's speculative, and if we agree that it's useful, it's still a much smaller variable in the survival rate of a cyclist then the other above-mentioned variables. Do you agree or disagree?
    It's probably a smaller variable, but I'm not convinced it's much smaller. It's a difficult issue to study, but, based on my own experience, I have no doubt that it has an enormous effect on how well a cyclist is noticed and treated, which I believe are important factors in determining cyclist safety.

    I have been able to reduce mine. However, I have not been able to eliminate my encounters. I have done my share. I ride vc.
    I have not had a close call - where I had to hit my brakes hard, yell, and/or swerve in order to avoid a crash with a car - since I adopted "Advanced VC" about 3 years ago (I've ridden per "basic VC" rules all of my adult life). Prior to that it seems to happen a few times a month.

    Of course, I continue to educate myself, because I hold my life as the most valuable to me. But if I am looking to save other cyclist's lives, I imagine I would get more bang-for-my-buck by finding some way to bring some education to the least educated and most dangerous cyclists.
    That's what I try to do. That's why, for example, I've been pushing real hard to get some door zone bike lanes near the local university (UCSD) widened so that it will be possible to ride within the bike lane and outside of the door zone. It's not for me (because I don't ride within the door zone regardless of where the stripe is pointed)!

    And if I weren't willing to do this, I wouldn't consider myself an advocate at all. And if I were only willing to advocate things that made improvements to the fastest cyclists, or the ones with the lightest or most expensive bikes, then I would consider myself an elitist advocate. And if I only advocate things that improve my situation directly, I would consider myself a cyclist, not an advocate.
    Agreed.

    Or do you imagine that Bike Lanes are the primary cause of wrong way, unlit cyclists?
    Nope.

  24. #24
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    In fact, the worst treatment I've gotten in years happened a few weeks ago with daughter in tow. Luckily, a cop witnessed it and pulled over the guy.
    OK, that can happen anytime, but are you sure you get treated better solo or are you just MUCH more perceptive to your surroundings when your child is along for the ride and tend to notice the jerks more? I would wager a lot of money on that being the case.

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    I don't know
    I'm asking you to make an educated guess. I'm asking you to use your head. What sort of relationship do you imagine there is between income, social status, education level attainment and internet access? What about relationships between income levels, social status, education level attainment and some of the more dangerous cycling behaviors, like wrong-way cycling, and unlit riding at night?

    http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/PED_BIKE/...3p00324/01.htm

    http://www.pewinternet.org/pdfs/Lati...ch_14_2007.pdf

    For example, the first article points out that a disproportionate number of hispanic cyclists are killed in the US.
    I would assume from your assertion that it is generally the cyclists who are at fault, that you would say that it is likely the same for this group of cyclists.

    The second article points out how the internet usages of hispanics in the US is significantly lower then that of non-hispanic whites, and even non-hispanic blacks. So these cyclists, who are being killed more often then the likes of you or me, are also much less likely to be reading your articles.

    Do you teach or attend classes, Helmet Head?
    If so, what percentage would you say are hispanic? San Diego is 46% white, non-hispanic. How does this compare to class attendance? How many non-high school graduates, or people living below the poverty line do you see at class (irrespective of ethnicity)?

    If you are interested in teaching a volunteer class that reaches out to the demographics in our shared city of San Diego that are killed the most disproportionately (and provided you would be willing to teach this as a basic safety/skills class that, focuses most on things like following the traffic law, proper lighting, how to ride predictably, and generally vehicularly, while saving the VC ideology for another occasion), I can help you as a translator and interpreter.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

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