Good enuf. Thanks, y'all.

You are right, LBM, John Forester's opponents have not always been angels. I would argue that both sides have, on occasion, discredited themselves. I would futher argue that it is in John Forester's nature and one of his distinguishing charateristics. For some (but, sadly, not all) of his opponents, it's out of character.


I have noticed that and I have also noticed that you have taken some hits. From my perspective the hits have not always been entirely undeserved although I can understand how you might have a different opinion. In any case, I have always thought of you as someone who at least tries to see both sides.

Misconceptions are common. I don't doubt that some think I'm a strong facilities proponent, even though nothing could be further from the truth.


I have always tried very hard to separate personality from viewpoint. But sometimes personality dictates the viewpoint


Oh, yes, diversity is a very good thing. It is one of the things I treasure and appreciate most. What a boring world it would be if we were all the same.

Little boxes, little boxes
Little boxes made of ticky tacky
Little boxes, little boxes
Little boxes all the same

There's a red one and a green one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same

(the preceeding was a tribute to urban sprawl)

Green Douglas Fir where the water cut through
Down her wild mountains and canyons she flew
Canadian northwest to the ocean so blue
Roll on, Columbia, roll on

Other great rivers lend power to you
Yakima, Snake and the Klickitat, too
Sandy, Willammette and the Hood River, too
Roll on, Columbia, roll on

(what is this obession with rivers?)

I make my home
On the Mississippi
I'm a roustabout
On a steamboat line...

---

I'm as free as a breeze
And I ride where I please
Saddle tramp, saddle tramp.

Different enough for ya, LBM? :D

I'm good... :D

But I'm not quite done yet. :D

Tom Jefferson's vision would not let him rest
Empire he saw in the Pacific Northwest
Sent Lewis and Clark and we did the rest
So roll on, Columbia, roll on

At Bonneville now there are ships in the locks
The waters have risen and cleared all the rocks
Shiploads of plenty will steam past the docks
So roll on, Columbia, roll on

I don't hate roadies, (well maybe the overly OCP ones). BMX'ers especially the little SOB's who can't type except in AOL'ese - now THEY turn my crank :p :rolleyes:

Not to derail my own thread, but I do hold *some* prejudices against the roadies (not necessarily the ones on this forum, I am talking about the locals here).
During the cold months it is just me and the motorists, and we get along great for the most part. Me riding my bicycles wearing my yellow jacket and black pants, the motorists driving their smoke breathing dragons. I signal, I obey the laws; they seem to respect me and do not harass me.
Then the warm months come and like a flock of locusts the roadies are all over. 90% of my route is along Metro Parkway, which leads to Metro Beach, which is the destination spot for most roadies. They usually park at Freedom Hill Park and ride to and from the beach which is a 30 mile loop. They are dressed in their flashy costumes showing off the sausage and being overly assertive about their "rights" to the road, then overstepping those rights by not being curteous while on the road and doing a nice little loop-de-loop at intersections so that they don't have to stop (approach a red light, turn right, go down a little ways the pull a U-turn, come back to light, hang a right, and off you go and avoid having to stop all together). This irritates motorists, possibly causing a little jealousy in them.
Motorists see me as a regular joe biking utilarian. Then they see these guys dressed like superheors from comic books flaunting their ability to "avoid" traffic control devices and they start to just group us all together.
So while it is "roadie season" motorists are more unfriendly to me. Maybe some roadie just ut them off (and they do) or maybe they got tired of some guy showing off his enormous manhood bulging from his spandex in front of their 7 year old daughter, it's doesn't matter to me what reason, the fact is that they start treating me worse because of it... or so it seems.
Then the cold weather comes and the roadies break out their trainers and it is just me and the motorists again.

Lol, nice dude.

The funny thing is that this trick would actually be a total of 2 violations (3 in most cities) instead of just the 1 for blowing the light. Although I imagine it doesn't catch the attention of the po-po as much as Mr. SausageHighlighter blowing the light at 25 mph.

I think the police are scared to cite a cyclist in full kit. really, would you risk someome driving by and snapping a shot of you while standing next to someone who looks like they found a new place to hid a banana and two ping pong balls? What if you are in some sort of comprimising position where say... your hand appears to be stroking said phallus?
Yeah, so the cops just drive by and avoid it all together, I don't blame them! :D

Not to derail the thread ........but I totally agree.
I use the 'roadie Vs. commuter' in my previous post because
I believe club ride/ training roadies are THE BIGGEST hinderance to
achieving a harmonious balance with the angry, non-cycling public,
but this is for another thread .


Shes a good ole mule an her
name is Sal...15 miles on the
Erie canal............:D

I agree with you that cyclists of this type are unlawful and promote a bad image of cyclists. However, we need to consider the source of their actions. These people are not cycling in the vehicular cycling way. And we have so much opposition to vehicular cycling. Not unexpected, should that irony be. They are just the vigorous end of the anti-vehicular-cycling spectrum, and our society doesn't care at either end because our society does not consider vehicular cycling desirable. As I keep telling motorists who complain about cyclist behavior, since you are members of the organizations that promoted unlawful cycling instead of vehicular cycling, you have no right to complain. Just fix your problem, and that will aid in fixing our problem.

Kind of ironic how Woody Guthrie commemorated and memorialized the building of numerous salmon-killing dams with a song titled 'Roll on Columbia'. Just goes to show that socialists aren't necessarily environmentalists any more than the capitalists are.

:(

I am sure that typical Forester Brand response goes over as well with motorists as typical Forester Brand advice goes over with cyclists.

It's the circle of life, you know...seasonal migration and all...you should get out your binoculars and quit complaining about the opportunities you have to catalogue the different varieties of our feathered friends... :D (If you're not married, you might fall upon an unattached female variety!)

In answer to the original question, I can relate.

I came here seeking camraderie to help me keep to my personal pledge to ride my bike to work. I asked a few "how do I handle this situation" questions. Got some helpful advice, until the stuff about how I shouldn't have pulled over to avoid being hit by a beer truck (Red Flag #1), and how stupid I am to ride in bike paths and bike lanes, and all that other stuff.

Talk about showing off your sausage, there's been a whole lot of sausage-showing in the "take the lane" BS I've heard. *Pulls up pants, sniffs* Well, I wouldn't ride in that dangerous shoulder where the logging trucks might overlook my sausage. I would always take the lane and only pull over after my log-sized sausage was adequately acknowledged! Puhleeze! (Red Flag #2)

I gave some thought to the ideas I heard, but many of them came with too much anti-bike lane baggage to make any sense in the conditions I ride in daily. For instance, I tried the "ride in the lane and only pull over to let people pass" idea, and decided it was not a good plan, then was told I have a low IQ because clearly I was incapable of comprehending such a plan. (Red Flag #3)

Then the Lord and Master of the ones who diagnosed my mental deficiencies came on board and the whole crowd has taken on a fever pitch of negativity and rank sexism (Red Flag #4) that simply leads me to say I won't ever advocate anything to anybody that might lead anyone to this crowd.

It's not that vehicular cycling is wrong. I just can't understand what good it will accomplish to ridicule and berate people and tell them they are suffering from superstitions and mental disorders. That's crazy talk and puts you on my ignore list.

Apparently, if the conversations I have with real world advocates are any indication, the "ignore list" is where these people end up anyway.

Edit: How can I forget when somebody posted a link to Forester's smiling face on the American Dream Coalition web site! That was the biggest red flag of all, and happened right around the time he and Randal O'Toole came to speak for a local organization in Santa Barbara that actively fights against the work of the bicycle coalition.

I realized then that the Forester Brand of VC is more about creating cyclists who advocate for auto-centric urban development (whether they know they do it or not) than it is about making things safer or better for cyclists. That was the last Red Flag (although I must admit none of my red flags were in any particular order) and the final nail in the coffin of any interest I might have in Forester Brand Vehicular Cycling.

Maybe message boards are not the best place to get to know people?

Diane, I do not know what questions you asked nor what advice you received before I was informed that my views were being discussed. However, I seem to remember that your initial words to me presented pro-bikeway views with a distinctly antagonistic attitude. A big red flag because I opposed certain road designs proposed for Santa Barbara that were bad for cyclists and I said that cyclists need good roads? Was that the source of your antagonism? I sincerely hope not. More likely what upset you was that I refused to take part in your anti-motoring campaign. Of course not, I was talking about what is good for cyclists, not about making things worse for motorists. In other words, much of your side of the discussion was about anti-motoring, not about vehicular cycling at all.

It appears that, for one reason or another, you either do not understand the issues, or you refuse to consider them. And at least one of your hopes was absurd, that our cities could be rearranged so that everybody could ride to work on bike paths well separated from traffic. I think, indeed, that you need to learn far more about the subject that fascinates you and then consider how better to understand it. Or, of course, just pay attention to your personal cycling and ignore the rest.

Who said anything about getting to know anybody. I have no interest in meeting anybody on this forum in person, although if we happened to meet I wouldn't go running from the room.

I simply find thinking about and talking about cycling, plus defending my position about the cycling facilities I use, to be a motivating factor in keeping me on my bike each day. Makes me grateful for what I have.

I think getting to know people in person is always a better idea.

Then again, when you argue on a message board, it's not necessary to know anyone personally. Sort of like when you're driving a car, it's much easier to flip someone a bird when they aren't your Aunt Sarah.

(I guess I'd better start following my own advice on that one...)

What I dont understand about this whole debate is why anyone really cares anyway.


Who really cares if someone is in a bike lane or in the middle of a lane? Both can be ridden safely if the person riding is paying attention. There are situations where the bike lane is safer, and there are situations where taking the lane is safer. I like my bike lanes. The ones near where I live are about 2 m wide and give me a spot away from traffic that often moves at 100kmph. Before they fixed the road, the road was hamburger, and "taking the lane" was not a wise move (due in large part to a lot of blind summits). However, in our downtown, I own the right lane and stay out of the door zone. Why is it that some here would flay me alive for liking the bike lanes when it makes sense to and others would burn me at the stake for taking a lane when it makes sense to? Never understood that one.

It is the dogmatic adherance to one form of riding as being superior to another that I honestly do not understand. It is as nonsensical as insisting that people who commute are not serious cyclists and that if you are in spandex you are a poser. Both are bigotted views, and quite frankly, annoying and rude.

What I appreciate and have learned from this forum is how easy it is to be assertive and communicate what I need to do to remain safe to motorists. Since I got better at that, I have had almost zero issues with other road users. Thanks for that, it is appreciated.

We are all individuals here, and all ride bikes. That, and an ability to speak something resembling English, are what most of us have in common with each other. Some of us like bike paths, some like bike lanes, some ride VC, some ride to work, some mtn bike, some road race, and some do all of those depending on where they are and on what bike they are on.

I am not suggesting we have a group hug, but perhaps keeping the debate civil would not hurt. Then maybe, people will feel able to ask questions and not get jumped on.

+1
One meme that I here repeated is this idea that this group or that "is giving the rest of us real cyclists a bad name."

As a car driver or cyclist I only have a problem with wrong way and ninja cyclists because I don't want to hit anyone.

Other then that, I am fine with however anyone rides, CM, roadie, club rider, commuter, fred on a cruiser, old guy on the side walk. Somehow I don't believe that any of them reflect on me. Cars drivers pass different types of cyclists at different speeds and distances, ergo, car drivers are pretty good at figuring out your behavior when they are following you. If they aren't, they probably didn't notice the "improper" behavior of whatever other cyclist they passed before you...

While AOL'ese is certainly irritating, I think the BMX'ers are cute - kind of like baby wolverines. :)

My tolerance for roadies hit its absolute limit inside the grocery store this afternoon where a roadie fully outfitted in eye-damaging road clownsuit bashed into me with his bike in the cereal aisle. It's not like there aren't 44 bike parking spaces outside our neighborhood grocery store - 22 good staple racks that are well placed and in view of just about everyone going in and out of the building. My bike's never been so much as breathed on wrong out there. The guy just couldn't bear to lock his bike up outside on a sunny day. Perhaps the lock weighed too much and so he couldn't manage to bring it with him? I don't know. All I know is that despite elevation and ice, I am going to have an incredibly nasty line of bruising on the leg he bashed into. It's already starting... :mad: I'm not even going to get into the 4 near misses I had with roadies just this past week alone.

You know you want me (well my head on a stick anyway)...and yes, you would go running from the room...I have that effect on people. :p :D

A roadie, carry a lock? Which planet did you visit to observe this strange behavior?