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  1. #226
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    That's fine. As soon as I realized that you inferred something that I did not intentionally imply, I corrected you assumption. No harm, no foul.

    Next time, when I have a list, I'll write it more like: I guess I just see the bike lanes as ended since 1) they are dashed, 2) the mandatory bike lane law is now void, and 3) cars can legally enter the space. (is that more clear?)

    I wondered why you were quoting the fact that drivers can merge 200 feet prior to the lane.

    If I had been asserting what you inferred, I would have apologized for an incorrect assertion.
    Yes, it's more clear, but it still seems to imply that there is some kind of connection between "bike lanes ended" ( interpreted to mean solid stripes becomes dashed) and "cars can legally enter the space."

    Cars can legally enter the space up to 200 feet prior to the right turn, regardless of whether the stripe is solid or striped,

  2. #227
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    You should read up on inattentional blindness.

    No matter how much you notice, there is much more that you don't, which you don't realize because you don't notice it. Are you in a relationship? If so, ask your SO how good you are at "paying attention to everything".

    Now, some people are better at noticing irrelevant than others (in the famous gorilla/basketball experiment, about half did not notice the gorilla, but half did). But even the most observant among us probably miss more than they notice. There is just too much information out there. Our minds are constantly filtering the perceived-to-be-relevant from the perceived-to-be-irrelevant. It's a natural cognitive process evolution has honed for survival.
    Yet you are the one who measures bike lane stripes, then says you ignore bike lane stripes, then can't recall bike lane stripes that you say don't exist anywhere that you know of when they are on your own alleged commute route. No, HH, you ain't getting off on the old inattentional blindness defense...you pwned yourself and proved once again your lack of honesty in these forums, further erroding your credibility.

    FYI, I am known for catching details many others miss...probably comes from those lowly (to you) past professions of military and law enforcement. I'm the guy who says, "WTF let that gorilla loose in here?".
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  3. #228
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    So you DON"T ignore bike lane stripes/bike lanes and they aren't "totally and completely irrelevant," let alone "irrelevant chaff." Got it (at least until your next flip-flop).
    Context, Pete, context. While I'm riding, I ignore the stripe. When I'm stopped with my bike leaning up against a post on the sidewalk and I'm looking at the stripes, I'm not ignoring them.

    BTW, did you only measure the length of a single dash and one gap?
    Yes, and using the term "measure" loosely. Like I said, I guesstimated.

    So now superior vigilance isn't about alert watchfulness but instinct? How can you be alertly watchful yet ignore threats to your safety?
    I'm not playing this game. Read Hurst's book. He explains it very well.

  4. #229
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    Given that admission, what motivated you to make this up then?

    ""in most places I've measured the solid doesn't go to dashed until just a few car lengths from the intersection""
    He inattentively measured without ever seeing the lines.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  5. #230
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: I have not read this thread, I just clicked on this page and saw references to dashed striped lanes and what it means.

    In AZ a dashed bike lane stripe means a motor vehicle may cross the BL stripe. It does not mean the lane has ended, nor does it mean that a motor vehicle may travel in this BL designated by a dashed line.

    If a bike lane has ended the stripe should end fully.

    Al

  6. #231
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I have no idea, frankly. I can only speculate that when I do notice the stripe, I notice the stripe, but not whether it's solid or dashed. FWIW, I can also tell you that most of the time I cannot tell you what someone is wearing, or what color their car, moments after being in the presence of them or their car. I would be a horrible eye witness.

    EDIT: This morning I was home for a few hours before I went to work. I saw, had breakfast with, and interacted with 2 family members (wife and daughter) and 2 friends who came by. I can't tell you what any of them was wearing. No clue, except I think my daughter had a skirt, though I don't know what color or pattern or anything like that. My daughter and wife and the female friend, on the other hand, could probably tell you exactly what everyone was wearing. That stuff it relevant/interesting to them; it is not to me.


    What makes you think I made it up? Where I've measured the stripe that's what I found. Apparently I only measured in those places where I noticed the stripe seemed short.

    EDIT: By the way, if I did make it up, or "lie" about this, why on Earth would I do it? Whether San Diego traffic engineers change bike lane striping from solid to dash 200, 100, 60, 30, 10 or 0 feet from the intersection has no relevance to any bike lane argument, pro or con, that I know of.

    The only reason it came up was that I was countering what Zeytoun seemed to be saying - that motorists can only enter bike lanes were they are dashed. That's not true. The law allows it up to 200 feet prior to a right turn, regardless of the nature of the striping. So why would I make up anything about this?

    So you can't pay attention to or recall minor details concerning your environment, yet you think you can tell others how to ride a bicycle in traffic, where paying attention to detail is a critical competency? I don't care if you commute or don't commute or what your religion is in regards to cycling. I do care about people giving advice on what is best and safest when they don't even have the core competencies themselves...and indeed don't even understand what core competencies are required.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  7. #232
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Disclaimer: I have not read this thread, I just clicked on this page and saw references to dashed striped lanes and what it means.

    In AZ a dashed bike lane stripe means a motor vehicle may cross the BL stripe. It does not mean the lane has ended, nor does it mean that a motor vehicle may travel in this BL designated by a dashed line.

    If a bike lane has ended the stripe should end fully.

    Al
    Can you cite the law for this? The law in CA is motorists can merge into the bike lane up 200' prior to the right turn, regardless of whether the stripe is solid or dashed.

  8. #233
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    In the places where I noticed them to be short, I measured them. In the places where I didn't notice them, I didn't measure them.
    So now it's sometimes you notice them and sometimes you don't? Make up your mind already...either you notice the pretty painted lines on the street or you don't. If you still claim you don't, I hope you at least learn to notice those cute solid yellow ones that might cause you to have a bad day if you cross over while dreamily riding along on autopilot.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  9. #234
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    So you can't pay attention to or recall minor details concerning your environment, yet you think you can tell others how to ride a bicycle in traffic, where paying attention to detail is a critical competency? I don't care if you commute or don't commute or what your religion is in regards to cycling. I do care about people giving advice on what is best and safest when they don't even have the core competencies themselves...and indeed don't even understand what core competencies are required.
    I do pay attention and can recall RELEVANT details in my environment, like whether my sightlines are blocked by a truck to the intersection up ahead. I normally do not pay attention nor can recall IRRELEVANT details in my environment, like the make/model/color of the truck is that is blocking my sight lines, or whether a bike lane stripe is solid or dashed.

  10. #235
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    So, if you only measured one dash and a single gap, why in the world would you exaggerate and claim "in most places I've measured"?

    You measured one dash and a single gap and somehow that translates into more than one dash and more than a single gap?
    In EACH place that I measured, I only measured one dash and one gap (not all the dashes and all the gaps). Stop playing stupid sophistic games. I'm done.

  11. #236
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    The parathetical statements clear up any confusion about any of the three being related to one another, at least for me.
    Cars can legally enter the space up to 200 feet prior to the right turn, regardless of whether the stripe is solid or striped,
    I question whether either of you are interested in enhancing communication, or muddying it.
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  12. #237
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    What claims of superior vigilance?

    Anyway, superior vigilance in traffic is about paying attention to that which is relevant and potentially relevant to one's safety, and NOT paying attention that which is the irrelevant, like the solid or dashed nature of bike lane striping.
    So exactly how do you determine what is and is not relevant if you don't notice things in your environment? Osmosis? ESP? Vulcan Mind-Meld with a chipmunk?

    This whole thing leads back to your wacky theories concerning what motorists notice and don't notice and your claims that unless you are in front of them, they don't notice you. These are all based on YOUR INATTENTIVENESS and assuming that everyone else is as helpless as you are, rather than on anything factual. You cling to your gorilla in a basketball game theory because it's all you got to justify your own shortcomings and apply them to the rest of the world.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  13. #238
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Can you cite the law for this? The law in CA is motorists can merge into the bike lane up 200' prior to the right turn, regardless of whether the stripe is solid or dashed.
    AZ law prohibts use of bike lane by motor vehicle except for crossing. A dashed stripe creates the presence of a bike lane. I only see dashed placed where a motor vehicle may cross the lane (such as BL to the left of RTOLs or for the last 10' before a turn, where a motor vehicle would clip the lane otherwise unless making a true 90deg turn.

    The law:
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatD...28&DocType=ARS

    "28-815. Riding on roadway and bicycle path; bicycle path usage

    A. A person riding a bicycle on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:

    1. If overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

    2. If preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

    3. If reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals or surface hazards.

    4. If the lane in which the person is operating the bicycle is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

    B. Persons riding bicycles on a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.

    C. A path or lane that is designated as a bicycle path or lane by state or local authorities is for the exclusive use of bicycles even though other uses are permitted pursuant to subsection D or are otherwise permitted by state or local authorities.

    D. A person shall not operate, stop, park or leave standing a vehicle in a path or lane designated as a bicycle path or lane by a state or local authority except in the case of emergency or for crossing the path or lane to gain access to a public or private road or driveway.

    E. Subsection D does not prohibit the use of the path or lane by the appropriate local authority. "
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  14. #239
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    So exactly how do you determine what is and is not relevant if you don't notice things in your environment? Osmosis? ESP? Vulcan Mind-Meld with a chipmunk?

    This whole thing leads back to your wacky theories concerning what motorists notice and don't notice and your claims that unless you are in front of them, they don't notice you. These are all based on YOUR INATTENTIVENESS and assuming that everyone else is as helpless as you are, rather than on anything factual. You cling to your gorilla in a basketball game theory because it's all you got to justify your own shortcomings and apply them to the rest of the world.
    If I were a real doctor, I think I would diagnose HH with 'Cyclist Inferiority Syndrome'....


  15. #240
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I do pay attention and can recall RELEVANT details in my environment, like whether my sightlines are blocked by a truck to the intersection up ahead. I normally do not pay attention nor can recall IRRELEVANT details in my environment, like the make/model/color of the truck is that is blocking my sight lines, or whether a bike lane stripe is solid or dashed.
    Again, if you don't pay attention to everything - especially things out of the ordinary, in your environment, how do you determine what is relevant and not relevant? Crystal Ball? Talk to God? Talk to Satan? The voices? How can you decide if it is relevant if you don't notice it?
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    I question whether either of you are interested in enhancing communication, or muddying it.
    Why would you say that? All I did was add statements inside of the sentence giving reasons for why each of the points was made in an attempt to clarify why you made each point and to show that none were directly related to another. Simply adding numbers wouldn't necessarily communicate that to someone.

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Again, if you don't pay attention to everything - especially things out of the ordinary, in your environment, how do you determine what is relevant and not relevant? Crystal Ball? Talk to God? Talk to Satan? The voices? How can you decide if it is relevant if you don't notice it?
    Because the pink flamingo isn't going to jump out into the road in front of me. Is that a good enough reason?

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    Serge, I'm "seeking clarity" as you so often do. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

    Before you stomp off in a huff, you forgot to answer this important question (now edited due to the clarity above):

    So how did you know to stop at those precise points* while riding, if you were ignoring the stripe while riding your bike?

    *precise points-the points at which you stopped, got onto the sidewalk, leaned your bike against a post, and did your measurements of the dashes and gaps.
    Maybe because he read on the internet that bike lane stripes are to be dashed 100-200 feet before an intersection.

  19. #244
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Again, if you don't pay attention to everything - especially things out of the ordinary, in your environment, how do you determine what is relevant and not relevant? Crystal Ball? Talk to God? Talk to Satan? The voices? How can you decide if it is relevant if you don't notice it?
    Come on Chip, give him a break, we all know that it was the good book EC what told Serge that the bike lane line is irrelevant. Don't persecute him, what are you trying to do, crucify him in the name of Foresterology?




  20. #245
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    All I did was add statements inside of the sentence giving reasons for why each of the points was made in an attempt to clarify why you made each point and to show that none were directly related to another. Simply adding numbers wouldn't necessarily communicate that to someone.
    Did you, like Helmet Head, believe that I was asserting that the beginnning of the dashed line determined where cars can enter the space?

    Why would I put a comma in between each clause?

    Wouldn't believing that the dashed line is what determines whether a car can enter the space, mean that I would think that cars are not legally allowed to cross the bike lane when it is solid, like at the many driveways I ride past in San Diego?

    By the way, the 3 items are related. The 3 conditions are all required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    So he just decided to stop 30-60 feet from the intersection to measure those dashes and gaps because he read that on the internet that bike lane stripes are to be dashed 100-200 feet before an intersection.

    After all, he ignores the stripes when riding so he wouldn't have seen them and known where to stop riding and start measuring.
    It seems to me that you cannot see the difference between regularly riding and ignoring a bike lane stripe and once or twice paying enough attention to the stripe (possibly while walking along that road or driving in a car even) to notice that it seems as though it's dashed for less than 100-200 feet. If you cannot see that difference, there's no point in continuing to discuss this with you.

  22. #247
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Here is what the AZ Driver's Licencse Manual says:
    -white lines separate lanes of traffic moving in same direction. single line may also mark right edge of pavement
    --broken: separates lane of traffic in same direction. may be crossed if safe with signal
    --solid: separates lanes of traffic. one shouldn't cross except for emergency
    --double: crossing prohibited

    So this interpretation basically means dashing is only used to indicate where lane changes are most likely to happen. Double white line is only where it is prohibited.

    Al
    Last edited by noisebeam; 05-16-07 at 02:45 PM.

  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Did you, like Helmet Head, believe that I was asserting that the beginnning of the dashed line determined where cars can enter the space?
    I wasn't paying that much attention to that statement (we were discussing something somewhat unrelated - if the striped completely disappeared or not) as he did but after reading it, I could see how it might be confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Why would I put a comma in between each clause?
    To seperate the points, like anyone with good punctuation skills would. The seperation by a comma says nothing about the context though.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Wouldn't believing that the dashed line is what determines whether a car can enter the space, mean that I would think that cars are not legally allowed to cross the bike lane when it is solid, like at the many driveways I ride past in San Diego?
    Possibly. There's a lot of confusion in general regarding how to use the space demarcated by a bike lane while operating a motor vehicle. The way you wrote it was ambiguous and HH was mislead. It's been cleared up now so it's really no big deal, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    By the way, the 3 items are related. The 3 conditions are all required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed.
    Well, no they are not all required to be present. The stripe doesn't need to be dashed to allow a right turn (you just admitted that yourself) nor does it need to be dashed to allow a motor vehicle to enter the bike lane 200 feet before their turn (again, something you've stated yourself). The available right turn is what needs to be present to allow the cyclist to leave the bike lane and the motorist to enter the bike lane. The dashing of the stripe is a suggested guideline for treatment of intersections.

    [edit] Before we start another debate, maybe I'm misinterpretting what you meant by "The 3 conditions are all required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed." Those three conditions are:

    1. they are dashed
    2. the mandatory bike lane law is now void
    3. cars can legally enter the space

    My interpretation of "what is required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed" is an allowable right turn. #2 and #3 follow from that but not necessarily #1. [edit]
    Last edited by joejack951; 05-16-07 at 02:40 PM.

  24. #249
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    [edit] Before we start another debate, maybe I'm misinterpretting what you meant by "The 3 conditions are all required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed." Those three conditions are:

    1. they are dashed
    2. the mandatory bike lane law is now void
    3. cars can legally enter the space

    My interpretation of "what is required to be present at an intersection where a right turn is allowed" is an allowable right turn. #2 and #3 follow from that but not necessarily #1. [edit]
    you forgot #4, legal for bikes to leave the space

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    I can see the difference in the scenario that you outlined above.

    That scenario bears no resemblance to the numerous, often contradictory, claims made by Mr. Head.
    You are using too literal of an interpretation of what HH means when he says he "ignores bike lane stripes while riding." You are also going a bit overboard assuming that just because he didn't notice the dashed length of some stripes that he is incapable of noticing the dashed length of others. Have some faith in what's being written, especially when it's so trivial. It would do a lot for your character (since what you write here is all that I know about you other than a few visits to your website).

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