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  1. #26
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    BTW, HH, speaking, for a moment, to the OP. We've had many, many, many discussions about the "science" of "bike lane advocacy" (whoever practices this, I'm not sure). I'd suggest using the search function to get the answers you are looking for.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    ^^^
    Actually, VC is concieved as a way for cyclists to cope in an environment dominated by cars. If you have lots of bike and car traffic mixed vehicularly, you get... wait for it... India (or any other poor country where bicycling is a norm and a significant fraction or even a majority of traffic). VC doesn't really work for anyone as the percentage of bicycles approaches 50% of vehicles. This is why the VC'ists have to argue that these percentages will never occur, and why some, such as John Forester, allow the cart to drive the horse and actually work to prevent measures which will result in these types of percentages.

    I see VC'ism, and especially anti-facility-ism as an offshoot of the "manifest destiny" type thinking; that what is occuring with sprawl and autocentricism is what should be just because it now is. It is one thing to practice and teach vehicular cycling as a way of getting by in the world as it is, but the arm which opposes everything that Mr. Forester terms (or is "tars" a better term?) "anti-car" is misguided. Bicycling is the most energy and resource efficient way for humans to amplify and extend the traveling range of their bodies. To not expect people who could benefit from this form of transportation to want to take advantage; to actually work against measures which will allow people to benefit from this form of transportation; is extremely misguided.
    This and the other examples of Asian traffic has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Those traffic problems are caused by disorganized and unlawful (in our terms) operation. Consider instead the operation of bicycles and vehicles in European nations in which motorists operate in a reasonable manner, such as England, France, and The Netherlands (outside the bikeway areas). In those nations, motorists and cyclists get along well.

    Anyone can oppose motoring, as Brian wishes to do, but they should not make cycling worse in the process of opposing motoring, simply because the general public believes that cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as inferior to motorists. Surely, if one wishes to oppose motoring, one should raise up the public opinion of cyclists to equal that of motorists.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    If cycling is (say) 50% of the traffic volume (without some sort of speed segregation), then all traffic either slows to bicycling speeds or faster traffic resorts to illegal maneuvers to maintain speeds above 15mph. Space on an asphault road is limited. This is exactly what happens in Asia, where bicyclist concentration is still high.

    VC is how one bicycles in the limit as the number of bicyclists approach a dilute concentration. Raise the percentage enough, and free and unrestricted travel for everyone is reduced to a common denominator.

    How do you know what I wish to do? I've never stated this; it seems you are putting words in my mouth. A straw man is easier to beat up, for sure.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  4. #29
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    If cycling is (say) 50% of the traffic volume (without some sort of speed segregation), then all traffic either slows to bicycling speeds or faster traffic resorts to illegal maneuvers to maintain speeds above 15mph. Space on an asphault road is limited. This is exactly what happens in Asia, where bicyclist concentration is still high.

    VC is how one bicycles in the limit as the number of bicyclists approach a dilute concentration. Raise the percentage enough, and free and unrestricted travel for everyone is reduced to a common denominator.

    How do you know what I wish to do? I've never stated this; it seems you are putting words in my mouth. A straw man is easier to beat up, for sure.

    It was worth saying twice!

  5. #30
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    I just can't get past the title of this topic. The science of bike lane advocacy. What the heck does that mean? There might be some science of bike lane efficacy out there. Maybe that's what was meant.
    ~Diane
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  6. #31
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    It was worth saying twice!
    Fixed it! Sorry !
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  7. #32
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Fixed it! Sorry !
    hey, indeed it was worth saying twice... it points out the issue of a true "critical mass."

    What happens when cyclists make up 50% of the traffic? I bet it would not even take 50%.

  8. #33
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    I dunno, is there a requirement for "scientific" support of such advocacy?
    Depends on bike-lane-advocate's rationale. If they claim that it increases ridership. Then there should be some evidence--descriptive would be a start--that it increases ridership. If they claim that it increases safety, then there should be evidence supporting the claim. If there is no such evidence but they want to try it out, then they should make such a statement.

  9. #34
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    If cycling is (say) 50% of the traffic volume (without some sort of speed segregation), then all traffic either slows to bicycling speeds or faster traffic resorts to illegal maneuvers to maintain speeds above 15mph. Space on an asphault road is limited. This is exactly what happens in Asia, where bicyclist concentration is still high.

    VC is how one bicycles in the limit as the number of bicyclists approach a dilute concentration. Raise the percentage enough, and free and unrestricted travel for everyone is reduced to a common denominator.

    How do you know what I wish to do? I've never stated this; it seems you are putting words in my mouth. A straw man is easier to beat up, for sure.
    Speed segregation is automatically built into the vehicular rules of the road via the speed positioning principle (slower traffic keeps right).

    Often, the 5 and 99 freeways north of L.A. are about half/half truck/car traffic, but the car drivers are not slowed down to the speed of trucks, for the most part, because, for the most part, the truckers keep right.

    There is nothing new here. The vehicular rules of the road have evolved over a hundred years to effectively handle all kinds of mixes in types of vehicular traffic.

  10. #35
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Speed segregation is automatically built into the vehicular rules of the road via the speed positioning principle (slower traffic keeps right).

    Often, the 5 and 99 freeways north of L.A. are about half/half truck/car traffic, but the car drivers are not slowed down to the speed of trucks, for the most part, because, for the most part, the truckers keep right.

    There is nothing new here. The vehicular rules of the road have evolved over a hundred years to effectively handle all kinds of mixes in types of vehicular traffic.
    Right, just like how it works in India and China... Riiiight.

  11. #36
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Often, the 5 and 99 freeways north of L.A. are about half/half truck/car traffic, but the car drivers are not slowed down to the speed of trucks, for the most part, because, for the most part, the truckers keep right.
    And that works well because the intersections are few (about 1 per mile), announced, and routed with a separate off ramp, that is almost never to the left. Also, the speed differential is usually 55 for trucks, 65-75 for cars. This is much smaller then the speed differential of 12-25 for bicycles, 40-55 for cars on arterials, with traffic turning either left or right, and intersections possibly several times each block.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  12. #37
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    BTW, HH, speaking, for a moment, to the OP. We've had many, many, many discussions about the "science" of "bike lane advocacy" (whoever practices this, I'm not sure). I'd suggest using the search function to get the answers you are looking for.
    If you're talking about the Texas study that indicates that many cyclists seem to ride further from the curb between intersections when there is a bike lane stripe than when there is not, that's the same study that shows that motorists tend to pass cyclists with less passing distance when there is a stripe, so it's kind of a wash, at best.

    Anything else?

  13. #38
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    Right, just like how it works in India and China... Riiiight.
    What part of Mr. Forester's answer did you not understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    This and the other examples of Asian traffic has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Those traffic problems are caused by disorganized and unlawful (in our terms) operation.

  14. #39
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    And that works well because the intersections are few (about 1 per mile), announced, and routed with a separate off ramp, that is almost never to the left. Also, the speed differential is usually 55 for trucks, 65-75 for cars. This is much smaller then the speed differential of 12-25 for bicycles, 40-55 for cars on arterials, with traffic turning either left or right, and intersections possibly several times each block.
    There is no question that large numbers of cyclists on surface streets would impact motor traffic more than truck traffic impacts auto traffic on interstates. But, then, interstates are designed for "free flow", and surface streets are not (frequent intersections, on street parking, midblock intersections, left and right turns, etc.).

    The issue is whether bike lane stripes alleviate or worsen the inevitable impact.

    One view is that bike lane stripes alleviate it by clearly separating the slower through traffic from the faster through traffic (proponents of this view are encouraged to expand on it, if they have anything to add).

    The other view is that bike lane stripes worsen the impact because:

    1. the benefit to through traffic alleviation of impact is relatively small, since separation by speed between intersections is already accomplished by speed positioning when there is no stripe.
    2. at least when the ratio of slower bicycle traffic to faster motor traffic is small, the "increased friction" due to lack of bike lane stripe is good because it tends to cause passing motorists to naturally slow down and pass with greater passing distance (ref: Texas study).
    3. the bike lane stripe channels through bicycle traffic to travel to the right of right turning motor traffic in the adjacent straight-or-right motor traffic lane. This is an issue not only at major intersections, but at all midblock intersections (with driveways, mall entrances, etc.). Thus, the separation-channelization by speed with demarcated lanes actually worsens the impact because it sets up conflict situations at intersections.

  15. #40
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    While it's codified in the CVC, in the real world, the one that I drive in, "slower traffic keeps right" as it applies to cars is usually wishful thinking. It's the exception, rather than the norm.
    We're talking about significantly slower traffic, like trucks vs. cars and bikes vs cars, not the occasional 60 mph Sunday driver in the fast lane, if that's what you're talking about with respect to "as it applies to cars".

    Please. If that is the case, explain the great number of left lane blockers that can be seen impeding traffic on our "highly evolved" highway system.
    Traffic volumes exceed infrastructure design constraints.

  16. #41
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Sorry, Pete, I was not following what you were talking about (not that you weren't clear - my bad). Yes, there are all too many morons driving too slowly in the fast lane when there is plenty of space to move over further to the right. And flashing head lights works with probably around only half of them, maybe less.

    But, just like the Asian examples, that "has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Those traffic problems are caused by disorganized and unlawful (in our terms) operation."

    The issue at hand is whether bike lanes would significantly alleviate the impact of cyclists on faster traffic or not. That too also depends on organized and lawful operation, and would not work, for example, if cyclists eschewed the bike lanes and rode their bikes unlawfully in the fast lanes.

  17. #42
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    I just can't get past the title of this topic. The science of bike lane advocacy. What the heck does that mean? There might be some science of bike lane efficacy out there. Maybe that's what was meant.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  18. #43
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    The vehicular rules of the road have evolved over a hundred years to effectively handle all kinds of mixes in types of vehicular traffic.


    Pigs fly too.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  19. #44
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    We're talking about significantly slower traffic, like trucks vs. cars and bikes vs cars, not the occasional 60 mph Sunday driver in the fast lane, if that's what you're talking about with respect to "as it applies to cars".

    Traffic volumes exceed infrastructure design constraints.
    Uh huh...that's why it happens during low traffic volume times too. Oh wait, you only know about your little overcrowded corner of California.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  20. #45
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    But, just like the Asian examples, that "has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Those traffic problems are caused by disorganized and unlawful (in our terms) operation.
    So which is the granny in the hammer lane, disorganized or unlawful?
    All traffic in the US is disorganized...just not AS disorganized as in some other countries....but to call it organized is like calling a duck a chicken.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  21. #46
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    So much for the vehicular rules of the road have evolved over a hundred years to effectively handle all kinds of mixes in types of vehicular traffic. They don't seem to be working, do they?
    They work great when drivers follow them.
    You can't fault the rules for drivers not following them, unless they are inherently non-intuitive and/or inconsistent with other rules.

    Plus, the laws in CA no longer clearly state that marginally slower traffic is required to keep to the right lanes, as it is in many other states, and certainly in Europe.

  22. #47
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    ....but to call it organized is like calling a duck a chicken.
    Just don't call an uber-duck an uber-chicken.
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  23. #48
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    So which is the granny in the hammer lane, disorganized or unlawful?
    All traffic in the US is disorganized...just not AS disorganized as in some other countries....but to call it organized is like calling a duck a chicken.
    "Disorganized" is a subjective term. Disputing a position based on a differing implicit use of the definition of "disorganized" is semantic sophistry.

    The fact is that organization can be measured on a spectrum, and where "organized" becomes "disorganized" is a matter of opinion.

    What's relevant to our discussion is whether traffic is sufficiently organized to be efficient and safe.

    It would probably be useful to define "disorganized" as being the lower area on the "organization" spectrum where traffic is made unsafe and/or inefficient due to the lack of organization.

    Given that definition, I don't think it's fair to characterize U.S. traffic as "disorganized". But perhaps you have a different definition in mind?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    I just can't get past the title of this topic. The science of bike lane advocacy. What the heck does that mean? There might be some science of bike lane efficacy out there. Maybe that's what was meant.
    I think that this discussion was initiated as a challenge to those who advocate bike lanes. Since bike lanes are a new addition to road design that contradict the normal operation of the rules of the road, they should never be advocated, except as an experiment, unless and until they have demonstrated particular advantages. Since bike lanes have had thirty five years of experience behind them, and nobody so far has produced evidence of any advantages, let alone advantages sufficient to overrule the confusion produced by contradicting the normal rules of the road, the answer is rather obvious.

    Oh, well, one advantage has been claimed, that bike lanes persuade some sidewalk cyclists to get on the roadway, which means, of course, that they persuade demonstrably incompetent cyclists to ride on the roadway when they don't have the skill to do it safely. Not much of an advantage, that, and there are much better ways of persuading sidewalk cyclists to operate properly.

  25. #50
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    What part of Mr. Forester's answer did you not understand?
    Oh yeah that "unlawful" part... like all of our drivers here are in strict compliance with the law...

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