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  1. #51
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    If drivers aren't following the rules, how does it follow that those same rules "effectively handle all kinds of mixes in types of vehicular traffic"?
    It doesn't follow if drivers aren't following the rules. That's the point.

    But that is irrelevant to the discussion we're having since this discussion presupposes that everyone is generally following the rules. The issue is whether bike lanes alleviate conflicts which only makes sense in the context of assuming that the rules, including cyclists slower than motor traffic keep right (and ride in bike lanes when applicable), are obeyed.

    That's why examples from Asia and I-5 of drivers disobeying the rules are irrelevant to this discussion.

  2. #52
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    Oh yeah that "unlawful" part... like all of our drivers here are in strict compliance with the law...
    No one said anything based on the assumption that all of our drivers here are in strict compliance with the law.

    indeed

  3. #53
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    When was this removed from the CVC?

    "21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway."

    Why are there still signs on the freeways that read "Slower Traffic Keep Right"?
    It's not entirely clear to me that someone going 70 in the fast lane with posted speed of 65 is obligated to move right by this law or such a sign.

    I would argue that it does apply to them, but Gene, and many others, would probably disagree, perhaps arguing that "70 in a 65" is inherently not "a speed less than the normal speed of traffic", especially if there is just one jerk flashing his lights who is trying to go 90.

    Other states and Europe have rules about this that are stated less ambiguously.

    Now, if you're talking about someone going 55 in the fast lane of 70 mph posted freeway, I'd agree that both the law and the sign clearly apply.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-15-07 at 02:22 PM.

  4. #54
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    "Disorganized" is a subjective term. Disputing a position based on a differing implicit use of the definition of "disorganized" is semantic sophistry.

    The fact is that organization can be measured on a spectrum, and where "organized" becomes "disorganized" is a matter of opinion.

    What's relevant to our discussion is whether traffic is sufficiently organized to be efficient and safe.

    It would probably be useful to define "disorganized" as being the lower area on the "organization" spectrum where traffic is made unsafe and/or inefficient due to the lack of organization.

    Given that definition, I don't think it's fair to characterize U.S. traffic as "disorganized". But perhaps you have a different definition in mind?
    So, Mr. Facts & Reason, why did you use a subjective term? Nevermind, we already know the answer...you do it so you can then proceed to tell us how we misunderstand you, play semantic games, don't have good reading comprehension and also to then frame your own wacky definitions on-the-fly.

    Traffic is not efficient, organized or safe in this country...the traffic accident and fatality rates are all the evidence I need. Now maybe you consider those numbers as an indication of safe, organized, efficient traffic, but I don't.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  5. #55
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    If you're talking about the Texas study that indicates that many cyclists seem to ride further from the curb between intersections when there is a bike lane stripe than when there is not, that's the same study that shows that motorists tend to pass cyclists with less passing distance when there is a stripe, so it's kind of a wash, at best.

    Anything else?
    We've got two years worth of talking about this subject. Search function, please.

    Are you after studies? If so, search for "bike lane studies" and you will get a list of all the studies we've talked about. There's at least one other out of Florida.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  6. #56
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Then this discussion is meaningless, since it is based upon a false premise (that all drivers generally follow the rules).
    Pete, we are all aware of how many of HHs arguments are based on presuppositions. He calls them circular dependences.

    As Schopenhauer said:
    Another plan is to beg the question in disguise by postulating what has to be proved, either (1) under another name; for instance, "good repute" instead of "honour"; "virtue" instead of "virginity," etc.; or by using such convertible terms as "red-blooded animals" and "vertebrates"; or (2) by making a general assumption covering the particular point in dispute: for instance, maintaining the uncertainty of medicine by postulating the uncertainty of all human knowledge. (3) If, vice versâ two things follow one from the other, and one is to be proved, you may postulate the other. (4) If a general proposition is to be proved, you may get your opponent to admit every one of the particulars. This is the converse of the second.<A href="http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/erist06.htm#f12c1">12
    And now, we have found a reason for HHs proclivity to make up his own definitions and terms.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Speed segregation is automatically built into the vehicular rules of the road via the speed positioning principle (slower traffic keeps right).

    Often, the 5 and 99 freeways north of L.A. are about half/half truck/car traffic, but the car drivers are not slowed down to the speed of trucks, for the most part, because, for the most part, the truckers keep right.

    There is nothing new here. The vehicular rules of the road have evolved over a hundred years to effectively handle all kinds of mixes in types of vehicular traffic.
    In Cambodia, there is also this "natural" speed segregation you talk about. It doesn't help much in town. People still have to make left turns (they drive on the right there).
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  8. #58
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    I don't see the following as "ambiguous" or "not clearly stated"

    Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic...

    You claim that "the laws in CA no longer clearly state that marginally slower traffic is required to keep to the right lanes." When did this change in California law, that you allude to above, actually occur?
    I don't know. It was my impression that we had more clearly stated rules about keeping right before the freeways days, but I might be mistaken. Anyway, that's what I was referring to. Did not mean to be misleading, but I might have been.

    My impression is based on the obervation that in most other western states, and in Europe, drivers are a lot better about using the fast lane only for passing, and the assumption that this is so because the laws are more clear on that being the purpose of the fast lane.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    We've got two years worth of talking about this subject. Search function, please.

    Are you after studies? If so, search for "bike lane studies" and you will get a list of all the studies we've talked about. There's at least one other out of Florida.
    We are not looking for studies about bike lanes. We are asking for those who advocate bike lanes, such as yourself, Brian, to point out the studies that you think provide good evidence for net benefits produced by bike lane stripes, and to tell us why you think that they do. I haven't seen any such studies, and I have a fairly good knowledge of the field.

  10. #60
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    Then this statement is fallacious:

    "The vehicular rules of the road have evolved over a hundred years to effectively handle all kinds of mixes in types of vehicular traffic."


    Then this discussion is meaningless, since it is based upon a false premise (that all drivers generally follow the rules).

    What did you mean by "Plus, the laws in CA no longer clearly state that marginally slower traffic is required to keep to the right lanes"?
    Take it up with Ratliff and those who applauded his gambit in post #28.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    If cycling is (say) 50% of the traffic volume (without some sort of speed segregation), then all traffic either slows to bicycling speeds or faster traffic resorts to illegal maneuvers to maintain speeds above 15mph. Space on an asphault road is limited. This is exactly what happens in Asia, where bicyclist concentration is still high.

    VC is how one bicycles in the limit as the number of bicyclists approach a dilute concentration. Raise the percentage enough, and free and unrestricted travel for everyone is reduced to a common denominator.

    How do you know what I wish to do? I've never stated this; it seems you are putting words in my mouth. A straw man is easier to beat up, for sure.
    [/quote]
    For the "some sort of speed segregation" to work, the laws, whether it's "slower traffic keeps right", or "bicycle traffic stays in bike lanes", mandating the segregation have to be generally followed.

    He did not state this explicitly, but it's implied. That's why examples from Asia or elsewhere of drivers not obeying the rules are irrelevant to this discussion.

  11. #61
    Senior Member John C. Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I don't know. It was my impression that we had more clearly stated rules about keeping right before the freeways days, but I might be mistaken. Anyway, that's what I was referring to. Did not mean to be misleading, but I might have been.

    My impression is based on the obervation that in most other western states, and in Europe, drivers are a lot better about using the fast lane only for passing, and the assumption that this is so because the laws are more clear on that being the purpose of the fast lane.
    Helmet Head,

    You are correct, but it has nothing to do with freeways. It has to do with horses and buggies, tractors and farm equipment, using the same road as autos. The only thing is, those roads were normally one-lane each direction. Therefore, you stayed to the right in order to facilitate passing in the opposite lane. I learned this before I got my driver's license, but spent a summer driving a tractor around town (which was legal as long as you had a learner's permit and were at least 15 years old in Oregon in the 1950s).

    He did not state this explicitly, but it's implied. That's why examples from Asia or elsewhere of drivers not obeying the rules are irrelevant to this discussion.
    Concerning your talk about drivers in Asia "not obeying the rules," you are speaking from ignorance. Asia is a huge place, prone in the West to steriotyping. You will find a very wide variance in how people drive in different countries, and how it has evolved since the 1980s. Hong Kong, Singapore, Seoul, Toyko and a lot of other areas have very sophisticated highway systems. You cannot generalize as you did above.

    John
    Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 05-15-07 at 02:44 PM.
    John Ratliff

  12. #62
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    We are not looking for studies about bike lanes. We are asking for those who advocate bike lanes, such as yourself, Brian, to point out the studies that you think provide good evidence for net benefits produced by bike lane stripes, and to tell us why you think that they do. I haven't seen any such studies, and I have a fairly good knowledge of the field.
    Exactly. 3 pages and almost 70 posts, and still nuthin'. Nada. Zippo. Nothing except the typical semantic sophistry that is all the bike lane supporters seem to be able to produce.

  13. #63
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    My impression is based on the obervation that in most other western states, and in Europe, drivers are a lot better about using the fast lane only for passing, and the assumption that this is so because the laws are more clear on that being the purpose of the fast lane.
    A lot of well-respected people suggest that it is driver education that is the difference here. Including the stringent processes required to obtain a driver's licence in the first place. What do you think?

    The licensing requirements are more stringent and enforcement is more vigorous in the parts of Europe that I have driven in. That leads to much better lane discipline.
    You beat me to it.
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  14. #64
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    We are not looking for studies about bike lanes. We are asking for those who advocate bike lanes, such as yourself, Brian, to point out the studies that you think provide good evidence for net benefits produced by bike lane stripes, and to tell us why you think that they do. I haven't seen any such studies, and I have a fairly good knowledge of the field.
    Again. We've talked about this. In the upper right corner is a "search" function. If you want to "challenge" anyone, at least get yourself up to date about what we've talked about previously on this forum.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  15. #65
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    I don't see anywhere in that post where he states, let alone implies, that "all drivers generally follow the rules."

    Unless you're using Headspeak™ definitions and "without some sort of speed segregation" now has the same meaning as "with some sort of speed segregation."
    Brian's argument is that WITHOUT some sort of speed segregation, you have Asia-like disorder.
    The logical implication is that WITH some sort of speed segregation, you have (more) order (otherwise, what would be his point)?
    But for that speed segregation to have any effect, general following of the rules would have to be implied, no?

    Edit: Again, that's why examples of problems due to lack of general following of the rules are irrelevant to this discussion.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-15-07 at 03:06 PM.

  16. #66
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Exactly. 3 pages and almost 70 posts, and still nuthin'. Nada. Zippo. Nothing except the typical semantic sophistry that is all the bike lane supporters seem to be able to produce.
    HH. Search. You'll find all your answers. You were there, those last couple years, right? Use the search function, find one of my arguments, start from there on new ground that we didn't previously cover.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  17. #67
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Again. We've talked about this. In the upper right corner is a "search" function. If you want to "challenge" anyone, at least get yourself up to date about what we've talked about previously on this forum.
    Even if you search forever you will still not find something that is not there.
    That's why the onus must be on those who claim it is there to produce it
    In the upper right corner is a "search" function. I use it frequently to produce links to posts and threads that support my position. You should try it.

  18. #68
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Brian's argument is that WITHOUT some sort of speed segregation, you have Asia-like disorder.
    The logical implication is that WITH some sort of speed segregation, you have (more) order (otherwise, would be his point)?
    But for that speed segregation to have any effect, general following of the rules would have to be implied, no?
    Actually, I was pointing out that the "natural" speed segregation was already followed in Asia, to no help. Your argument is that Asia doesn't apply because this "natural" speed segregation doesn't occur, and is simply false.

    You are trying to pick a fight and doing it badly. Next time, start an argument where one left off and genuinely engage people. I'm done with this one. Science, my ass. You are looking for scoring debate points is all. Toodles.

    Oh yea, this thread is an example (you asked, remember) of you just wanting to score points in a debate. If you truly care about this subject and want to learn, you should engage people in conversation instead of challenging them to a debate.

    And... please, to answer the OP, use the search function. We've talked about this subject more times than I can count.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  19. #69
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Even if you search forever you will still not find something that is not there.
    That's why the onus must be on those who claim it is there to produce it
    In the upper right corner is a "search" function. I use it frequently to produce links to posts and threads that support my position. You should try it.
    Then state clearly what you want to know. What are you after here? What little wrinkle of this little debate would you like to discuss? If you want insight into the broad topic of "the science of bike lane advocacy", then do your own research. Many people just on this board have written many thousands of words on the subject. Otherwise, be more specific.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  20. #70
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Then state clearly what you want to know. What are you after here? What little wrinkle of this little debate would you like to discuss? If you want insight into the broad topic of "the science of bike lane advocacy", then do your own research. Many people just on this board have written many thousands of words on the subject. Otherwise, be more specific.
    See the OP.

    Is there any science, or even pseudo science, supporting the advocacy of bike lanes?
    If so, where is it?

  21. #71
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    In the upper right corner is a "search" function. I use it frequently to produce links to posts and threads that support my position. You should try it.
    I'm not the OP who's posted an enflamatory one liner and acting like the previous two years of discussions on this very topic didn't happen. I'm not requesting information. You are.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  22. #72
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    See the OP.



    If so, where is it?
    I'm tell'n you, dude. Do your own research. Report back what you find, and we'll all comment on your analysis. Jeez. I assume there is a university library somewhere around San Diego? One of the UC universities, isn't there? Go there, pay the $20 or whatever to gain access to interlibrary loan, and sit down and do some research. It's your hobby. Not mine. I ride my bike more than talk about it.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  23. #73
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Brian's argument is that WITHOUT some sort of speed segregation, you have Asia-like disorder.
    The logical implication is that WITH some sort of speed segregation, you have (more) order (otherwise, would be his point)?
    But for that speed segregation to have any effect, general following of the rules would have to be implied, no?
    Actually, I was pointing out that the "natural" speed segregation was already followed in Asia, to no help. Your argument is that Asia doesn't apply because this "natural" speed segregation doesn't occur, and is simply false.

    You are trying to pick a fight and doing it badly. Next time, start an argument where one left off and genuinely engage people. I'm done with this one. Science, my ass. You are looking for scoring debate points is all. Toodles.

    Oh yea, this thread is an example (you asked, remember) of you just wanting to score points in a debate. If you truly care about this subject and want to learn, you should engage people in conversation instead of challenging them to a debate.

    And... please, to answer the OP, use the search function. We've talked about this subject more times than I can count.
    Brian, I'm trying to engage you or anyone else in discussion, not in a debate. Look at the words of mine you quoted. They are not "fighting words". I am honestly stating my understanding of the situation.
    Now look at your words, they are "fighting words".

    There is no animosity in my post, there is plenty in yours.

    By the way, back in post #28 (and vicinity), which is what I'm referring to above as where this discussion that is based on the assumption that general following of the rules is presupposed, you were not pointing out that "natural" speed segregation was already followed in Asia, to no help. You made that claim much later (#62).

  24. #74
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    If you are looking for discussion, offer something up. You offered a "challenge." Even JF interpreted it as such.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    If you are looking for discussion, offer something up. You offered a "challenge." Even JF interpreted it as such.
    I see no reason to change my view of the science of bicycle transportation. I have never seen a study that demonstrates significant benefit from bike-lane stripes, and those on this forum who advocate bike-lane stripes have not advanced any study that demonstrates such benefits with an explanation of why they think it does demonstrate such benefit. In other words, all the advocacy of bike lanes is nothing but useless twaddle, hot air, and disturbed electrons. You bike-lane advocates ought to shut up.

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