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  1. #101
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
    Helmet Head, and JF,

    Look at this:



    From:

    http://pubsindex.trb.org/document/vi...sp?lbid=667814

    HH, I think if you only looked, did a bit of research, you'd find your answers. Let's see, that makes two scientific studies that I've posted which reinforce the need for bike lanes, one in Singapore and one in Portland, Oregon. Do you want more?

    John
    The Singapore study is not a study about why bike lanes should be advocated. It's simply a record of a doctor's opinion about bike lanes.

    The Portland study is about whether bike lanes shown to be dangerous should be painted blue to make them less dangerous, hardly scientific evidence supporting the notion that bike lanes should be advocated.

    Yes, I want more, because I want something.

  2. #102
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    So are "bike lanes" and "slow truck lanes" "artificial" speed segregation?
    And "slower traffic keeps to the right" rules are natural speed segregation?
    Speed segregation is automatically built into the vehicular rules of the road via the speed positioning principle (slower traffic keeps right).
    Right, I would say that natural equates likely to automatic in your post.
    Although these are misnomers. There is nothing especially natural, automatic, or artificial about speed segregation.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  3. #103
    Senior Member John C. Ratliff's Avatar
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    HH,

    By the way, there is research currently underway that will help resolve these issues:

    Analysis of Bicycle Lanes (BL) Versus Wide Curb Lanes (WCL)
    http://adotnet/divisions/itd/pnp/PDF/MGT/mgt021.pdf
    Record Type: RiP

    Arizona Department of Transportation (ADOT) Bicycle Policy (MGT 02-01) became effective 3/1/02 and is scheduled for review. Excerpts from that policy state that it is ADOT’s policy: (1) provide shared roadway cross-section templates; (2) consider, as a part of major new construction and major reconstruction in urban areas, Wide Curb Lanes up to 15’ in width; and (3) consider bicycle lanes for inclusion with major new construction or major reconstruction when they are fully funded for construction and maintenance by a local agency and the bicycle lane is included as a part of a planned designated bicycle route approved by ADOT. What is the appropriate type of bicycle facility on the State Highway System for cyclists? Some research, for example, concludes that: (1) BL cause problems to the extent that they encourage bicyclists and motorists to violate the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, or (2) the best way to make most busy roads "Motorist Friendly in the Presence of Bicyclists, Resulting in Bicycling Friendliness" is to provide WCL, that they are simple, and simply better. The counterargument is that cycling is much safer and more popular precisely in those countries where bikeways, bike lanes, special intersection modifications, and priority traffic signals are the key to their bicycling policies. Finally, some studies conclude that both BL and WCL facilities can and should be used to improve cycling conditions.
    Start date: 2005/10/1
    End date: 2008/7/31
    Status: Active
    Contract/Grant Number: 598
    Total Dollars: 15000
    Source Organization: Arizona Department of Transportation
    Date Added: 11/09/2005
    Index Terms: Bicycle lanes, Curbs, Policy making, Bicycling, Reconstruction, Construction of specific facilities, Maintenance, Bikeways, Research projects, Arizona,



    Sponsor Organization Project Manager
    Arizona Department of Transportation
    http://www.azdot.gov
    206 South 17th Avenue
    Phoenix, AZ 85007
    USA


    Federal Highway Administration
    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/
    400 7th Street, SW
    Washington, DC 20590
    USA
    Phone: (202) 366-4000

    Semmens, John
    Phone: (602) 712-3137



    Performing Organization Principal Investigator


    Subjects
    Administration and Management
    Construction
    Maintenance
    Operations and Traffic Management
    Pedestrians and Bicyclists
    Highway and Facility Design
    Highway Operations, Capacity and Traffic Control

    http://rip.trb.org/browse/dproject.asp?n=11339

    _______________________

    Bicycle Traffic Pavement Markings
    Record Type: RiP

    Pavement markings, including those in colour, take many forms and functions in North American and European jurisdictions. In some cases the pavement markings are intuitive and easily understood by motor vehicle traffic and cyclists, but in some applications, the intended effect is not always clear. It also seems that the use of pavement markings is discretionary, without clear guidelines, numerical evaluation processes or ranking systems to help determine when benefits can be achieved. The objective of this project is to develop guidelines and recommendations on the design and application of pavement markings for bicycle traffic on Canadian roads. The project will provide recommendations on the most effective configuration of pavement markings, use of materials, installation, maintenance and cost. Furthermore, numerical evaluation processes and ranking systems will be determined. The project will also result in recommendations for an update to the TAC 1998 publication, Bikeway Traffic Control Guidelines for Canada, with relevant guidelines on pavement markings.
    Start date: 2004
    End date: 2006
    Status: Active
    Contract/Grant Number: 200411RT369E
    Total Dollars: 0
    Source Organization: Transportation Association of Canada
    Date Added: 06/14/2005
    Index Terms: Bicycles, Pavements, Marking materials, Bicycle lanes, Traffic lanes, Specifications, Evaluation and assessment, Safety, Recommendations, Motor vehicles, Bicycling, Research projects, Canada,



    Sponsor Organization Project Manager
    City of Calgary Transportation Department
    P.O. Box 2100 , Station M
    Calgary, Alberta T2P 2M5
    Canada


    Regional Municipality of Halifax
    Halifax
    Nova Scotia


    Regional Municipality of Halton
    Halton
    Canada


    City of Hamilton
    Hamilton
    Canada


    City of Ottawa
    Ottawa
    Canada


    Transportation Association of Canada
    2323 St Laurent Boulevard
    Ottawa, Ontario K1G 4J8
    Canada



    Performing Organization Principal Investigator
    Transportation Association of Canada
    2323 St Laurent Boulevard
    Ottawa, Ontario K1G 4J8
    Canada

    Skene, M.



    Subjects
    Administration and Management
    Materials
    Operations and Traffic Management
    Pavements
    Planning
    Research
    Safety and Human Factors
    Vehicles
    Pedestrians and Bicyclists
    Highway Operations, Capacity and Traffic Control
    Pavement Design, Management and Performance
    Safety and Human Performance


    http://rip.trb.org/browse/dproject.asp?n=10903
    __________________________________________________


    Tools for Predicting Usage and Benefits of Urban Bicycle Network Improvements
    Record Type: RiP

    Research started in the first Minnesota Department of Transportation (Mn/DOT) project, and developed further in the NCHRP project, would make it possible to develop precise expectations regarding the quantity and types of cycling and cyclists expected under various conditions. Data collection for this research will focus first on exploratory counts and questioning to establish the extent to which these expectations are supported, and if there are particular situations for which further study would provide the most new knowledge. Additional data would then be collected for those situations.
    Start date: 2004/1/2
    End date: 2005/12/31
    Status: Active
    Contract/Grant Number: 81655-102
    Secondary Number: 2003-048R
    Total Dollars: 50000
    Source Organization: Minnesota Department of Transportation
    Date Added: 04/30/2004
    Index Terms: Urban areas, Urban development, Bicycle facilities, Networks, Benefits, User benefits, Tools, Research projects, Minnesota,



    Sponsor Organization Project Manager
    Minnesota Department of Transportation
    http://www.dot.state.mn.us/
    Mail Stop 330
    395 John Ireland Boulevard
    St. Paul, MN 55155-1899
    USA
    Phone: (800) 657-3774

    Warzala, Dan
    Phone: (651) 366-3786
    Email: dan.warzala@dot.state.mn.us



    Performing Organization Principal Investigator
    University of Minnesota
    301 19th Avenue South, Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs
    Minneapolis, MN 55455-
    USA

    Barnes, Gary R.
    Phone: (612) 626-9865
    Fax: (612) 626-9833
    Email: gbarnes@hhh.umn.edu



    Subjects
    Materials
    Research
    Pedestrians and Bicyclists
    Public Transportation
    Planning and Administration
    Public Transit

    http://rip.trb.org/browse/dproject.asp?n=9485

    John
    John Ratliff

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Good for you. But it was HH who was asking, not you, so I'm not seeing the point. If you've done the research and are not convinced, then good on you. But if there is no hope of holding a reasonable discussion on the subject, then why are you here?



    Enough with the insults already. Damn man, are you off your meds? Tell you what. I'll just repeat your words back to you, they have as much relevence.

    In other words, all the advocacy of VC'ism is nothing but useless twaddle, hot air, and disturbed electrons. You VC'ists ought to shut up.

    Now then, did that convince you to shut up? Why do you think it would convince me to shut up?

    And don't you go thinking that I cannot produce an argument for bike lanes. I've produced countless arguments. None have been refuted. Use the search function to look up previous discussions. I don't care to repeat them to a person who is unable to have a reasonable discussion on the subject.

    The issue never concerned what you, Brian, have argued. The question concerned reasonable studies upon which you might have based your arguments. You have advanced none.

    On the contrary, there are reasonable studies supporting vehicular cycling. The first is that the rules of the road have been worked out to fit the operating characteristics of vehicles and of their human drivers. While I know of no specific early study to determine the fits, it is obvious that the experimentation and discussion that developed the rules of the road has always been based on the goodness of fit. It is well known that acting contrary to the rules of the road causes collisions. Numerous studies on various aspects of that. When it comes specifically to cycling, the Cross study demonstrates that issue quite nicely, and also demonstrates that the specific hazard of the straight-ahead cyclist being run over by the straight-ahead motorist, upon which the bikeway hypothesis is based, is a very small proportion of car-bike collisions. Then there is my own study of the different requirements placed on drivers by the normal rules of the road versus the bikeway operating characteristics. And, of course, studies showing that learning how to operate according to the rules of the road is easy to learn.

    The above are the reasons why your foolish assertion that vehicular-cycling advocacy is nothing but useless twaddle, hot air, and disturbed electrons is just what I have written about other bikeway advocacy. There is a difference between an accurate, though picturesque, description and nonsense, and it is not an insult to describe nonsense as what it is.

    You ask why I am here? I am here precisely because this group chose to denigrate my position regarding bicycle transportation, specifically using my name as the evil-doer. Think about it.

  5. #105
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Congratulations. I pointed this out back in #82:
    No, in #82 it appears that you were still confused, and misinterpreted Brian's talk of the existence "natural" speed segregation (slower traffic keep right laws) as Brian asserting that those ideas were generally being followed.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  6. #106
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    The first is that the rules of the road have been worked out to fit the operating characteristics of vehicles and of their human drivers. While I know of no specific early study to determine the fits, it is obvious that the experimentation and discussion that developed the rules of the road has always been based on the goodness of fit. It is well known that acting contrary to the rules of the road causes collisions. Numerous studies on various aspects of that. When it comes specifically to cycling, the Cross study demonstrates that issue quite nicely, and also demonstrates that the specific hazard of the straight-ahead cyclist being run over by the straight-ahead motorist, upon which the bikeway hypothesis is based, is a very small proportion of car-bike collisions. Then there is my own study of the different requirements placed on drivers by the normal rules of the road versus the bikeway operating characteristics. And, of course, studies showing that learning how to operate according to the rules of the road is easy to learn.
    So, for the scientific evidence favoring the advocacy of vehicular cycling we have:
    1. The rules of the road have been worked out to fit the operating characteristics of vehicles and of their human drivers.
    2. Experimentation and discussion that developed the rules of the road has always been based on the goodness of fit.
    3. Numerous studies showing that acting contrary to the rules of the road causes collisions.
    4. The Cross study.
    5. The Forester study comparing the safety of cycling on roadways to cycling on a sidepath at the same speeds using the same vigilance.
    6. studies showing that learning how to operate according to the rules of the road is easy to learn.
    For the scientific evidence opposing the advocacy of vehicular cycling we have:
    Nothing.


    For the scientific evidence favoring the advocacy of bike lanes we have:
    1. Some Singapore doctors' opinions (arguably not scientific evidence)
    2. A study showing that particularly dangerous bike lanes are not quite as dangerous when painted blue (not really evidence support the advocacy of bike lanes)

    For the scientific evidence opposing the advocacy of bike lanes we have:
    1. The Cross study showing that the specific hazard of the straight-ahead cyclist being run over by the straight-ahead motorist, upon which the bikeway hypothesis is based, is a very small proportion of car-bike collisions.

    Anything else?
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-15-07 at 05:56 PM.

  7. #107
    Senior Member John C. Ratliff's Avatar
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    If you are interested in papers currently published, you can look at this source:

    http://www.vtpi.org/documents/walking.php

    On this page, you will find a link to this paper:

    Why Canadians cycle more than Americans: A comparative
    analysis of bicycling trends and policies
    John Pucher *, Ralph Buehler
    Institute of Transport and Logistics Studies, University of Sydney, Newtown NSW 2006, Australia; Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy,
    Rutgers University, 33 Livingston Avenue, Room 363, New Brunswick, NJ 08901, USA
    Received 26 May 2005; received in revised form 21 October 2005; accepted 1 November 2005

    Abstract
    In spite of their colder climate, Canadians cycle about three times more than Americans. The main reasons for this difference are Canada’s higher urban densities and mixed-use development, shorter trip distances, lower incomes, higher costs of owning, driving and parking a car, safer cycling conditions, and more extensive cycling infrastructure and training programs. Most of these factors result from differences between Canada and the United States in their transport and land-use policies, and not from intrinsic differences in history, culture or resource availability. That is good news, since it suggests the possibility of significantly increasing cycling levels in the United States by adopting some of the Canadian
    policies that have so effectively promoted cycling and enhanced its safety. (Emphasis added, jcr)
    copyright 2005 Published by Elsevier Ltd.
    John Ratliff

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
    HH,

    By the way, there is research currently underway that will help resolve these issues:

    Analysis of Bicycle Lanes (BL) Versus Wide Curb Lanes (WCL)
    http://adotnet/divisions/itd/pnp/PDF/MGT/mgt021.pdf
    Record Type: RiP

    Arizona Department of Transportation (ADOT) Bicycle Policy (MGT 02-01) became effective 3/1/02 and is scheduled for review. Excerpts from that policy state that it is ADOT’s policy: (1) provide shared roadway cross-section templates; (2) consider, as a part of major new construction and major reconstruction in urban areas, Wide Curb Lanes up to 15’ in width; and (3) consider bicycle lanes for inclusion with major new construction or major reconstruction when they are fully funded for construction and maintenance by a local agency and the bicycle lane is included as a part of a planned designated bicycle route approved by ADOT. What is the appropriate type of bicycle facility on the State Highway System for cyclists? Some research, for example, concludes that: (1) BL cause problems to the extent that they encourage bicyclists and motorists to violate the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, or (2) the best way to make most busy roads "Motorist Friendly in the Presence of Bicyclists, Resulting in Bicycling Friendliness" is to provide WCL, that they are simple, and simply better. The counterargument is that cycling is much safer and more popular precisely in those countries where bikeways, bike lanes, special intersection modifications, and priority traffic signals are the key to their bicycling policies. Finally, some studies conclude that both BL and WCL facilities can and should be used to improve cycling conditions.
    Start date: 2005/10/1
    End date: 2008/7/31
    Status: Active
    Contract/Grant Number: 598
    Total Dollars: 15000
    Source Organization: Arizona Department of Transportation
    Date Added: 11/09/2005
    Index Terms: Bicycle lanes, Curbs, Policy making, Bicycling, Reconstruction, Construction of specific facilities, Maintenance, Bikeways, Research projects, Arizona,



    Sponsor Organization Project Manager
    Arizona Department of Transportation
    http://www.azdot.gov
    206 South 17th Avenue
    Phoenix, AZ 85007
    USA


    Federal Highway Administration
    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/
    400 7th Street, SW
    Washington, DC 20590
    USA
    Phone: (202) 366-4000

    Semmens, John
    Phone: (602) 712-3137



    Performing Organization Principal Investigator


    Subjects
    Administration and Management
    Construction
    Maintenance
    Operations and Traffic Management
    Pedestrians and Bicyclists
    Highway and Facility Design
    Highway Operations, Capacity and Traffic Control

    http://rip.trb.org/browse/dproject.asp?n=11339

    _______________________

    Bicycle Traffic Pavement Markings
    Record Type: RiP

    Pavement markings, including those in colour, take many forms and functions in North American and European jurisdictions. In some cases the pavement markings are intuitive and easily understood by motor vehicle traffic and cyclists, but in some applications, the intended effect is not always clear. It also seems that the use of pavement markings is discretionary, without clear guidelines, numerical evaluation processes or ranking systems to help determine when benefits can be achieved. The objective of this project is to develop guidelines and recommendations on the design and application of pavement markings for bicycle traffic on Canadian roads. The project will provide recommendations on the most effective configuration of pavement markings, use of materials, installation, maintenance and cost. Furthermore, numerical evaluation processes and ranking systems will be determined. The project will also result in recommendations for an update to the TAC 1998 publication, Bikeway Traffic Control Guidelines for Canada, with relevant guidelines on pavement markings.
    Start date: 2004
    End date: 2006
    Status: Active
    Contract/Grant Number: 200411RT369E
    Total Dollars: 0
    Source Organization: Transportation Association of Canada
    Date Added: 06/14/2005
    Index Terms: Bicycles, Pavements, Marking materials, Bicycle lanes, Traffic lanes, Specifications, Evaluation and assessment, Safety, Recommendations, Motor vehicles, Bicycling, Research projects, Canada,



    Sponsor Organization Project Manager
    City of Calgary Transportation Department
    P.O. Box 2100 , Station M
    Calgary, Alberta T2P 2M5
    Canada


    Regional Municipality of Halifax
    Halifax
    Nova Scotia


    Regional Municipality of Halton
    Halton
    Canada


    City of Hamilton
    Hamilton
    Canada


    City of Ottawa
    Ottawa
    Canada


    Transportation Association of Canada
    2323 St Laurent Boulevard
    Ottawa, Ontario K1G 4J8
    Canada



    Performing Organization Principal Investigator
    Transportation Association of Canada
    2323 St Laurent Boulevard
    Ottawa, Ontario K1G 4J8
    Canada

    Skene, M.



    Subjects
    Administration and Management
    Materials
    Operations and Traffic Management
    Pavements
    Planning
    Research
    Safety and Human Factors
    Vehicles
    Pedestrians and Bicyclists
    Highway Operations, Capacity and Traffic Control
    Pavement Design, Management and Performance
    Safety and Human Performance


    http://rip.trb.org/browse/dproject.asp?n=10903
    __________________________________________________


    Tools for Predicting Usage and Benefits of Urban Bicycle Network Improvements
    Record Type: RiP

    Research started in the first Minnesota Department of Transportation (Mn/DOT) project, and developed further in the NCHRP project, would make it possible to develop precise expectations regarding the quantity and types of cycling and cyclists expected under various conditions. Data collection for this research will focus first on exploratory counts and questioning to establish the extent to which these expectations are supported, and if there are particular situations for which further study would provide the most new knowledge. Additional data would then be collected for those situations.
    Start date: 2004/1/2
    End date: 2005/12/31
    Status: Active
    Contract/Grant Number: 81655-102
    Secondary Number: 2003-048R
    Total Dollars: 50000
    Source Organization: Minnesota Department of Transportation
    Date Added: 04/30/2004
    Index Terms: Urban areas, Urban development, Bicycle facilities, Networks, Benefits, User benefits, Tools, Research projects, Minnesota,



    Sponsor Organization Project Manager
    Minnesota Department of Transportation
    http://www.dot.state.mn.us/
    Mail Stop 330
    395 John Ireland Boulevard
    St. Paul, MN 55155-1899
    USA
    Phone: (800) 657-3774

    Warzala, Dan
    Phone: (651) 366-3786
    Email: dan.warzala@dot.state.mn.us



    Performing Organization Principal Investigator
    University of Minnesota
    301 19th Avenue South, Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs
    Minneapolis, MN 55455-
    USA

    Barnes, Gary R.
    Phone: (612) 626-9865
    Fax: (612) 626-9833
    Email: gbarnes@hhh.umn.edu



    Subjects
    Materials
    Research
    Pedestrians and Bicyclists
    Public Transportation
    Planning and Administration
    Public Transit

    http://rip.trb.org/browse/dproject.asp?n=9485

    John
    Of the first two studies advanced by John R in this discussion, the first, by doctors in Singapore, presents no expert knowledge regarding either bikeways or vehicular cycling. The second, largely a study of the blue-painted bike lanes in Portland, reports attempts to make several particularly dangerous bike-lane locations somewhat safer.

    The three studies advanced by John R in the above post are unfinished; we have only the intended aim of the studies, nothing about method, results, or conclusions. The first, in Arizona, acknowledges the two main lines of argument that have been present in this discussion, but there is no indication of how evidence will be obtained to settle the issue. I doubt that much will come of this; I've seen too many such. The second, for Canadian highways, looks to be much the same, developing guidelines without good evidence. The third, for Minnesota, intends to start trying to measure bicycling volume against various types of facility, to determine whether or not further study would be valuable. Possibly useful as far as it goes, but this is irrelevant to the issue of vehicular cycling versus other styles of cycling.

    Perhaps John R should start to consider the characteristics that distinguish reasonable relevant studies from those that are irrelevant or do not produce an expectation of new and useful knowledge.

  9. #109
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    I see no reason to change my view of the science of bicycle transportation. I have never seen a study that demonstrates significant benefit from bike-lane stripes, and those on this forum who advocate bike-lane stripes have not advanced any study that demonstrates such benefits with an explanation of why they think it does demonstrate such benefit. In other words, all the advocacy of bike lanes is nothing but useless twaddle, hot air, and disturbed electrons. You bike-lane advocates ought to shut up.
    There's the difference between you and I John...I consider cycling as a way of life, not science...and my momma taught me better manners than to tell people to shut up just because they don't agree with my wacky theories. Of course, when one's twaddle doesn't hold water, I guess 'shut up' is the only response left to them.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  10. #110
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
    If you are interested in papers currently published, you can look at this source:

    http://www.vtpi.org/documents/walking.php

    On this page, you will find a link to this paper:

    Why Canadians cycle more than Americans: A comparative
    analysis of bicycling trends and policies
    John Pucher *, Ralph Buehler
    Institute of Transport and Logistics Studies, University of Sydney, Newtown NSW 2006, Australia; Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy,
    Rutgers University, 33 Livingston Avenue, Room 363, New Brunswick, NJ 08901, USA
    Received 26 May 2005; received in revised form 21 October 2005; accepted 1 November 2005

    Abstract
    In spite of their colder climate, Canadians cycle about three times more than Americans. The main reasons for this difference are Canada’s higher urban densities and mixed-use development, shorter trip distances, lower incomes, higher costs of owning, driving and parking a car, safer cycling conditions, and more extensive cycling infrastructure and training programs. Most of these factors result from differences between Canada and the United States in their transport and land-use policies, and not from intrinsic differences in history, culture or resource availability. That is good news, since it suggests the possibility of significantly increasing cycling levels in the United States by adopting some of the Canadian
    policies that have so effectively promoted cycling and enhanced its safety. (Emphasis added, jcr)
    copyright 2005 Published by Elsevier Ltd.
    I suspect Mr. Forester will have something to say about Pucher. Everything I've read about him and his studies is not pretty.

  11. #111
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I suspect Mr. Forester will have something to say about Pucher. Everything I've read about him and his studies is not pretty.
    And everything we read from you and Forester is pretty?
    Then again, the wig is nice....

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
    If you are interested in papers currently published, you can look at this source:

    http://www.vtpi.org/documents/walking.php

    On this page, you will find a link to this paper:

    Why Canadians cycle more than Americans: A comparative
    analysis of bicycling trends and policies
    John Pucher *, Ralph Buehler
    Institute of Transport and Logistics Studies, University of Sydney, Newtown NSW 2006, Australia; Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy,
    Rutgers University, 33 Livingston Avenue, Room 363, New Brunswick, NJ 08901, USA
    Received 26 May 2005; received in revised form 21 October 2005; accepted 1 November 2005

    Abstract
    In spite of their colder climate, Canadians cycle about three times more than Americans. The main reasons for this difference are Canada’s higher urban densities and mixed-use development, shorter trip distances, lower incomes, higher costs of owning, driving and parking a car, safer cycling conditions, and more extensive cycling infrastructure and training programs. Most of these factors result from differences between Canada and the United States in their transport and land-use policies, and not from intrinsic differences in history, culture or resource availability. That is good news, since it suggests the possibility of significantly increasing cycling levels in the United States by adopting some of the Canadian
    policies that have so effectively promoted cycling and enhanced its safety. (Emphasis added, jcr)
    copyright 2005 Published by Elsevier Ltd.
    John R, you added the emphasis for "safer cycling conditions". Upon what do you base your view that this is both important and supports bikeways rather than vehicular cycling? I say a bit more. Professor Pucher has never shown any indication in a published paper of knowing the difference between safe and dangerous cycling, and he has violated the cardinal rule of statistical comparison that correlation does not demonstrate causation. He has shown in public correspondence that he is full of the typical bikeway superstitions as well as the anti-motoring attitude typical of his profession. And he has shown, in public correspondence, that he is, or recently was, completely ignorant of the literature of bicycle transportation engineering. Of course, I am arguing ad hominem, but in this kind of case I think it justified as the proper skepticism to be expected from his papers, unless demonstrated otherwise.

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    So, for the scientific evidence favoring the advocacy of vehicular cycling we have:
    1. The rules of the road have been worked out to fit the operating characteristics of vehicles and of their human drivers.
    2. Experimentation and discussion that developed the rules of the road has always been based on the goodness of fit.
    3. Numerous studies showing that acting contrary to the rules of the road causes collisions.
    4. The Cross study.
    5. The Forester study comparing the safety of cycling on roadways to cycling on a sidepath at the same speeds using the same vigilance.
    6. studies showing that learning how to operate according to the rules of the road is easy to learn.
    In all usages of the term "rules of the road" are you referring to the local traffic laws, or the vc rules of the road (based on the EF 5 points), or something else?

    Also, if you take the stance that the ROTR evolved to reach their current state, then there is the question of whether they need furthur evolution, and if there is a "perfect state" that has already been conceived and will one day be reached, or if we can't yet know what improvements the future will show us. Thoughts?
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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Everything I've read about him and his studies is not pretty.
    Let's just stick to his studies, right? If I were trying to decide whether Hitler's, Einstein's, a poster with the user name Helmet Head's, John Forrester's, Zeytoun's, an unrelated person named Harvey Muldragger, Stalin's, or VC advocate Serge *******'s ideas were valid or not, it would be illogical to consider their respective behaviors while evaluating their statements.
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    Indeed, his behavior is irrelevant.

    By Everything I've read about him and his studies is not pretty I did not mean:

    Everything I've read about him is not pretty AND everything I've read about his studies is not pretty.

    I meant everything I've read about him and his studies is not pretty.

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    Senior Member John C. Ratliff's Avatar
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    I'm not answering questions here, just posting studies at this point. You guys (HH and JF) are saying that there's nothing out there, and ask us to find it. You are not doing any work here at all. Here's another:

    Making Walking and Cycling Safer: Lessons from Europe
    John Pucher and Lewis Dijkstra
    Department of Urban Planning
    Rutgers University—Bloustein School
    33 Livingston Avenue, Suite 302
    New Brunswick, New Jersey 08901—1900
    Phone: (732) 932-3822, ext. 722; Fax: (732) 932-2253
    Email: pucher@rci.rutgers.edu; lewis.dijkstra@bigfoot.com
    February 2000
    This article is scheduled for publication in Transportation Quarterly, Vol. 54, No. 3, summer
    2000. Please use that citation in any references to this pre-print version of the paper. This
    preprint version does not contain the ten photographs in the printed article; also, page numbers
    will vary between this version and the final, printed version in the summer 2000 TQ issue

    Here is a quote from that study:

    Bicycling infrastructure: German and Dutch cities have invested heavily to expand and improve facilities specifically for bicycling; many of these investments have focussed on increased safety. The most obvious symbol of this investment is the already massive and everexpanding network of bike lanes and bike paths, which provide completely separate rights of way for cyclists. Unlike the fragmented cycling facilities in the United States, the bike paths and
    lanes in The Netherlands and Germany form a truly integrated, coordinated network covering both rural and urban areas. Dutch and German bikeway systems serve practical destinations for everyday travel, not just recreational attractions, as most bike paths in the United States. The comprehensive route system in Germany and The Netherlands helps insulate cyclists to various
    degrees from motor vehicles, which are involved in over 95% of bicyclist deaths. In The Netherlands, the network of bike paths and lanes more than doubled in length in less than 20 years: from 9,282 km in 1978 to 18,948 km in 199619. The German bikeway network almost tripled in length: from 12,911 km in 1976 to 31,236 km in 1995.20
    Now, HH & JF, you can discount the studies if you wish (I think I'm up to four posted now, with posts of others that are underway). But you cannot say that they don't exist, as HH has stated. If everything you've read about him and his studies "is not pretty," I would suggest that you read the actual studies before making a judgement. They are available here:

    http://www.vtpi.org/documents/walking.php

    John
    John Ratliff

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    In all usages of the term "rules of the road" are you referring to the local traffic laws, or the vc rules of the road (based on the EF 5 points), or something else?

    Also, if you take the stance that the ROTR evolved to reach their current state, then there is the question of whether they need furthur evolution, and if there is a "perfect state" that has already been conceived and will one day be reached, or if we can't yet know what improvements the future will show us. Thoughts?
    The rules of the road might be ever evolving, but I fear the day that they start regularly striping straight thru traffic lanes to the right of right turn lane. This would NEVER happen for normal traffic lanes in my opinion. I doubt you'd disagree. Why then is it so acceptable for bike lanes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff

    Now, HH & JF, you can discount the studies if you wish (I think I'm up to four posted now, with posts of others that are underway). But you cannot say that they don't exist, as HH has stated.
    John R, I never said that scientific studies that do not provide reasons to advocate for bike lanes do not exist. In fact, I'm sure they do, as you are proving.

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Why then is it so acceptable for bike lanes?
    I don't know. I am against lanes that continue at the curb up to the intersection (except for at an intersection with no right turn possible). I'm not sure I have seen one that hasn't either ended or routed to the left of RTOLs here in San Diego.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    In all usages of the term "rules of the road" are you referring to the local traffic laws, or the vc rules of the road (based on the EF 5 points), or something else?
    I'm using it generically to mean any or all. That is, the statements stand regardless of which specific definition for rules of the road you use.

    Also, if you take the stance that the ROTR evolved to reach their current state, then there is the question of whether they need furthur evolution, and if there is a "perfect state" that has already been conceived and will one day be reached, or if we can't yet know what improvements the future will show us. Thoughts?
    See JJ's comment/question on this if you haven't already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    I don't know. I am against lanes that continue at the curb up to the intersection (except for at an intersection with no right turn possible). I'm not sure I have seen one that hasn't either ended or routed to the left of RTOLs here in San Diego.
    Where have you see one that did NOT go all the way to the intersection?

    Yes, they change the striping from solid to striped, 20-60 feet prior to the intersection, but it still goes all the way to the intersection, 3-5 feet from the curb, unless the lane becomes too narrow to be able to handle that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    I don't know. I am against lanes that continue at the curb up to the intersection (except for at an intersection with no right turn possible). I'm not sure I have seen one that hasn't either ended or routed to the left of RTOLs here in San Diego.
    Are they dashed as they approach the intersection or does the lane switch to a WCL before the intersection? Of course the stripes end in the intersection but so do all stripes (if this is what you were referring to).

    FWIW, the treatment of bike lanes to the left of a RTOL leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion. There is often only a very short merge area and the ones I've seen have made room for the RTOL by severely cutting down on the bike lane width. As others have pointed out (and I see this wherever there are RTOL's bike lane or not), that unswept area that the bike lane occupies between the straight and RTOL's is very prone to debris build up as well.

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    That is, the statements stand regardless of which specific definition for rules of the road you use.
    So, for the scientific evidence favoring the advocacy of vehicular cycling we have:
    1. The rules of the road have been worked out to fit the operating characteristics of vehicles and of their human drivers.
    Proposition 1, by Helmie: the rules of the road (I read this as traffic law) have been worked out to fit the characteristics of vehicles and their drivers human.

    Proposition 2, by Helmie: Proposition 1 is evidence favoring the advocacy of vehicular cycling.

    So if a traffic law is unsatisfactory to VC, does it now fall outside of Proposition 1?
    If a traffic law changes to conform to your idea of VC (for example, a mandatory side path law is repealled next week) does that mean that the current law (with mandatory side paths) is evidence favoring the advocacy of VC?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Proposition 1, by Helmie: the rules of the road (I read this as traffic law) have been worked out to fit the characteristics of vehicles and their drivers human.

    Proposition 2, by Helmie: Proposition 1 is evidence favoring the advocacy of vehicular cycling.

    So if a traffic law is unsatisfactory to VC, does it now fall outside of Proposition 1?
    If a traffic law changes to conform to your idea of VC (for example, a mandatory side path law is repealled next week) does that mean that the current law (with mandatory side paths) is evidence favoring the advocacy of VC?
    Semantic sophistry alert. You got me

    Sorry, I should have said any definition excluding any rules that are contradictory to the basic principles of vehicular operation.

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Are they dashed as they approach the intersection or does the lane switch to a WCL before the intersection?
    Yes, I'm sorry, they're dashed, so technically the bike lane continues. I guess I just see them as ended since they are dashed, the mandatory bike lane law is now void, and cars can legally enter the space. In addition to the fact that your fear of "striping". And the striping ends. But I will not be a semantic prig. Technically, they continue, I stand corrected.

    I guess, in a big picture sense, I would rather see something like regular ads on TV explaining to viewers how and why a cyclist would leave the right side of the road (even with a bike lane) then have bike lanes erased on arterials. On 25mph streets, yes, let's spray paint 'em all black.

    Of course, that's just my opinion, and I get more excited about advocacy in the areas where I see common ground. I'm happier withholding my personal controversial advocacy ideas, while there is still much common advocacy to be done.

    Yes, they change the striping from solid to striped, 20-60 feet prior to the intersection
    If so, isn't that in violation of California Law?
    Quote Originally Posted by State of California

    Where motor vehicle right turns are not permitted, the solid bike lane stripe should extend to the edge of
    the intersection, and begin again on the far side. Where right turns are permitted, the solid stripe should
    terminate 30 m (100 ft) to 60 m (200 ft) prior to the intersection.
    Option:
    A dashed line, as shown in Figure 9C-102, may be carried to, or near, the intersection. Where city
    blocks are short (less than 120 m (400 ft)), the length of dashed stripe may be 30 m (100 ft).
    Guidance:
    Where blocks are longer or vehicle speeds are high (greater than 60 km/h (35 mph)), the length of dashed
    stripe should be increased to 60 m (200 ft).
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