The science of bike lane advocacy.
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
well, there we go then! Yep, likely hundreds of studies that advocate bicycle infrastructure. the SCIENCE of bike infrastructure, versus mossy johns' emotionally ******** disapproval of cycling infrastructure.
My point is that none of these probably hundreds of studies has provided scientifically reasonable evidence to support the three basic claims of bikeway advocates, or specifically for bike lanes. The three basic claims for bike lanes are that the bike-lane stripe reduces car-bike collisions, reduces the level of skill that is required for safe cycling, and significantly reduces motoring. I have never seen such a paper; it was the purpose of the inquiry to see whether any of the bicycle advocates in this forum would advance such a paper and support its reasoning.
By the way, we on this forum have had a much better discussion of European facilities than is possible from reading the Pucher and Dijkstra paper. That's how bad that paper is.
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I'm getting ready to ride to work! don't have a lot of time to waste debating the efficacy of bike infrastructure, which works on bridge approaches in Portland, and portland generally, with a posturing chest puffer in Bike Forums.....
tonight, Ride of Silence, Seattle, 6:30 PM, Gasworks park, to show solidarity to our brothers of the wheel killed or injured while bicycling. If you're in Seattle, please show up.
tonight, Ride of Silence, Seattle, 6:30 PM, Gasworks park, to show solidarity to our brothers of the wheel killed or injured while bicycling. If you're in Seattle, please show up.
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
I'm getting ready to ride to work! don't have a lot of time to waste debating the efficacy of bike infrastructure, which works on bridge approaches in Portland, and portland generally, with a posturing chest puffer in Bike Forums.....
tonight, Ride of Silence, Seattle, 6:30 PM, Gasworks park, to show solidarity to our brothers of the wheel killed or injured while bicycling. If you're in Seattle, please show up.
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hey, Head, I've had good friends killed on their bicycles by inattentive drivers. put a sock in it, armchair rider.
...... Mentioning the efficacy of bike specific bridge infrastructure, the 'blue bike lanes', that have been repeatedly referred to by John Ratliff, myself and others, make cycling across the bridges safer in Portland. Vehicular cyclists use the blue bike lanes in Portland, bub. i'd bet ol' Bow Tie and Head would as well.
...... Mentioning the efficacy of bike specific bridge infrastructure, the 'blue bike lanes', that have been repeatedly referred to by John Ratliff, myself and others, make cycling across the bridges safer in Portland. Vehicular cyclists use the blue bike lanes in Portland, bub. i'd bet ol' Bow Tie and Head would as well.
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The blue bike lanes are one of the Foresterologists biggest strawmen. Even though all the empirical evidence and years of personal experience indicate that they lead to less confusion, a higher degree of safety for cyclists and contribute to increased levels of cycling, the Forsterologists continue to rattle their dull sabers at the strawmen.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Bumps, bottles, etc. are relevant to a cyclist.
I'll verify the length of that dashed bike lane later today (I still have trouble believing it is as long as is shown in the photo - mayb ethat's an old photo). But if it is, that just shows that I simply never paid attention to the striping there. Inattentional blindness. We're all prone to it. Obviously I am!
I'll verify the length of that dashed bike lane later today (I still have trouble believing it is as long as is shown in the photo - mayb ethat's an old photo). But if it is, that just shows that I simply never paid attention to the striping there. Inattentional blindness. We're all prone to it. Obviously I am!
Dude, I even have names for the critters on my route...I highly advise that you pay better attention to your surroundings and leave the auto-pilot for jet jocks.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
And lane markings are not?
Whether a bike lane stripe is present makes practically no difference to my riding - whether that stripe is dashed or solid makes even less differerence. The fact that I was oblivious to the length of the bike lane stripe dashing just a few blocks from my home only confirms how irrelevant bike lane striping is to me.
Pete, thank you. You have made it clear that there are many more exceptions than I realized; that the dashing is much longer than 30-60 feet at many intersections, and appears to be even 100-200 feet or more at some.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
In my opinion, if roads are going to be signed for 45+mph speed limits with frequent intersections, I'd prefer those roads to have multiple narrow, unshareable lanes. In my experience, this works much better than the same road with a shoulder/bike lane stripe to the right of the outside through lane. I get a whole lane that motorists are used to using for making right turns so there is much less ambiguity about how to treat me near intersections. I'll admit that I have little experience with wide curb lanes on these types of roads. I do regularly ride 45mph roads with multiple narrow lanes ans frequent intersections though. In regards to using a full lane near intersections, the treatment I receive from motorists is leaps and bounds above the treatment I receive when doing the same thing on roads with a shoulder/bike lane. Perhaps with more experience with wide curb lane roads my opinion might begin to favor that setup. I certainly prefer that setup when intersections are less frequent, regardless of speed limit (speed limits generally mean nothing to most motorists at rush hour when I'm normally cycling).
For those roads with high speeds, narrow lanes, and frequent intersections, signage saying that cyclists have the right to use the full lane would be a mild benefit (like I said, I get the best treatment there already) as would sharrows. Both would hopefully encourage proper lane positioning (not curb hugging) by cyclists using these roads. Having the cyclist in the center of the narrow lane that motorists are accustomed to using for right turns and expecting to have through traffic, has in my experience reduced right hook and failure to yield situations to nil.
For those roads with high speeds, narrow lanes, and frequent intersections, signage saying that cyclists have the right to use the full lane would be a mild benefit (like I said, I get the best treatment there already) as would sharrows. Both would hopefully encourage proper lane positioning (not curb hugging) by cyclists using these roads. Having the cyclist in the center of the narrow lane that motorists are accustomed to using for right turns and expecting to have through traffic, has in my experience reduced right hook and failure to yield situations to nil.
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Originally Posted by randya
The blue bike lanes are one of the Foresterologists biggest strawmen. Even though all the empirical evidence and years of personal experience indicate that they lead to less confusion, a higher degree of safety for cyclists and contribute to increased levels of cycling, the Forsterologists continue to rattle their dull sabers at the strawmen.
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Not paying attention? How do you manage to obey the rules of the road? I mean wasn't it you that said we have to be vigilant and observant to obey the rules of the road?
Dude, I even have names for the critters on my route...I highly advise that you pay better attention to your surroundings and leave the auto-pilot for jet jocks.
Dude, I even have names for the critters on my route...I highly advise that you pay better attention to your surroundings and leave the auto-pilot for jet jocks.
Paying attention while riding in traffic means paying attention to what is relevant (or potentially relevant) to your getting to your destination safely.
Whether a bike lane stripe is dashed or solid makes absolutely no difference to me, so I don't pay attention to it (even less so than I realized, thanks to Pete). That's a good thing, because it means I'm paying more attention to that which is relevant.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Yes, let's add more fuel to the fire keeping many people from taking up cycling: fear of dying. Just what we need to further the interests of expanding the popularity of bicycling.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Paying attention does not mean paying attention to everything.
Paying attention means paying attention to what is relevant.
Whether a bike lane stripe is dashed or solid makes absolutely no difference to me, so I don't pay attention to it (even less so than I realized, thanks to Pete). That's a good thing, because it means I'm paying more attention to that which is relevant.
Paying attention means paying attention to what is relevant.
Whether a bike lane stripe is dashed or solid makes absolutely no difference to me, so I don't pay attention to it (even less so than I realized, thanks to Pete). That's a good thing, because it means I'm paying more attention to that which is relevant.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by chipcom
My advice stands...you better start learning to pay attention to everything. THAT is the mark of an experienced transportational cyclist...the fact that you don't consider it important only supports those that accuse you of being a club rider at best, armchair cyclist at worst.
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Originally Posted by chipcom
My advice stands...you better start learning to pay attention to everything.
That's why we prefer drivers pay attention to their driving, and not to their radios, cell phones, french fries or whether a bike lane stripe at an intersection approach where they never turn is solid or dashed, and if it is dashed, how long that dashing is.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Originally Posted by chipcom
My advice stands...you better start learning to pay attention to everything. THAT is the mark of an experienced transportational cyclist...the fact that you don't consider it important only supports those that accuse you of being a club rider at best, armchair cyclist at worst.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Chip just can't resist slipping in an ad hominem attack on me. It's how he gets his jollies, pushing all reason aside.
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Originally Posted by genec
Tend to agree, and commend the use of "cyclists have the right to use the full lane" signs. That removes the abiguity of the motorists who feel that cyclists should be on the sidewalk.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Looks to me like you don't enjoy taking a good natured razzing; just like giving 'em to others for fun, eh?
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I'd prefer those roads to have multiple narrow, unshareable lanes.
In regards to using a full lane near intersections, the treatment I receive from motorists is leaps and bounds above the treatment I receive when doing the same thing on roads with a shoulder/bike lane.
Now my law says that you can leave bikelanes for several reasons, including approaching intersections. It is similar (with some small differences) to the law I have that says you should keep near to the curb with several exceptions.
Now, the way I see it, if an officer incorrectly assumed I should be in a bike lane, it shows that he didn't know or understand the law. Would he treat me differently on that same stretch of road if there were no bike lane?
I guess what I am saying is that we agree on a few things. One is to generally ride vehicularly is a good thing. We probably agree, but to different levels, on how much that affects how we are treated. That doesn't affect our decision on how to ride.
We also agree that some drivers will treat you improperly, if you don't ride vehicularly. We probably agree that cyclist education is key (and with the relative small number of cyclists, free classes probably work, although we need to somehow reach the cyclists who for whatever reasons, don't attend these classes).
All that leaves is the bike lane issue (whether to erase or improve) and the general public/driver education issue. I want some sort of shoulder/bike lane area for high speed differentials. You would rather have narrow lanes (by the way, do your arterials have curbs?). If we have bike lanes, we have to educate drivers to let them know that you don't have to be in them just because they want you to be in them. If we don't have bike lanes, I have to find another route if I want a shoulder/bail out area.
Last edited by zeytoun; 05-16-07 at 11:43 AM.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
Did the bike lane exist in the same form before the blue paint/signage was added?
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Actually, I think it's more a case of you fabricating something from whole cloth to support another one of your "arguments."
How can bike lane markings be irrelevant to your riding when you have claimed that you have used bike lanes? Or, if I'm not remembering correctly and you never ride in bike lanes, how can you consciously stay out of them if you don't pay attention to the bike lane stripe?
How can bike lane markings be irrelevant to your riding when you have claimed that you have used bike lanes? Or, if I'm not remembering correctly and you never ride in bike lanes, how can you consciously stay out of them if you don't pay attention to the bike lane stripe?
How do you selectively ignore bike lane markings but pay attention to the other road markings that are adjacent (or better yet, within your field of view) to the bike lane markings?
How exactly I accomplish that, I cannot tell you. I'm not a cognitive scientist. But I know it has to do with effective cognitive filtering of the relevant wheat from the irrelevant chaff. Bike lane stripes are irrelevant chaff.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
You can't be serious. Where do you draw the line at paying attention then? Should I note what type of grass is used in the front yards of the houses I pass by, you know, just in case I need to collapse from exhaustion and want to choose the softest landing spot?
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
snip
All that leaves is the bike lane issue (whether to erase or improve) and the general public/driver education issue. I want some sort of shoulder/bike lane area for high speed differentials. You would rather have narrow lanes (by the way, do your arterials have curbs?). If we have bike lanes, we have to educate drivers to let them know that you don't have to be in them just because they want you to be in them. If we don't have bike lanes, I have to find another route if I want a shoulder/bail out area.
The choice between having a bike lane and having narrow lanes is a false statement, because the best is the wide outside lane, which has all the advantages of easy overtaking by motorists without the disadvantages of the bike-lane stripe.
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The choice between having a bike lane and having narrow lanes is a false statement, because the best is the wide outside lane, which has all the advantages of easy overtaking by motorists without the disadvantages of the bike-lane stripe.
You would prefer a WOL. That's fine. I would prefer that to a NOL on a 45mph arterial.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
And my advice is that it is humanly impossible to pay attention to everything and the more you pay attention to the irrelevant, the less you pay attention to the relevant.
That's why we prefer drivers pay attention to their driving, and not to their radios, cell phones, french fries or whether a bike lane stripe at an intersection approach where they never turn is solid or dashed, and if it is dashed, how long that dashing is.
That's why we prefer drivers pay attention to their driving, and not to their radios, cell phones, french fries or whether a bike lane stripe at an intersection approach where they never turn is solid or dashed, and if it is dashed, how long that dashing is.
Indeed, your blather about lines being irrelevant is hogwash and a dodge. So if today those dashed lines were now red or blue solid lines, indicating that future construction along the route is likely, you wouldn't notice? How can you notice if something has changed if you never bothered noticing it at all?
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey