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  1. #1
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Who here has really changed their mind?

    Please, don't post comments like, "I used to believe (insert your enemy's position here,) but now I know better." If you do, you'll still be predictable (that includes me.)

    The grass is always browner on the other side of the fence here in the Vehicular Cycling subforum.

    Give me chocolate. I want chocolate (spiced with pepper.)
    No worries

  2. #2
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Did you? What does it mean to change one's mind? Are you meaning to ask if I've learned more about the subject and are better informed? If so, then yes, of course. If you mean that I used to bicycle vehicularly and now I ride against traffic on the sidewalk, then no.

    Are you trying to refer to yea or neigh on bike lanes? Yes. Actually I used to believe quite seriously in the VC position (seriously, not in jest here) but many discussions with HH and others have strengthened my position in favor of bike lanes. Realize that I originally took the "pro-bike lane" position just to debate with HH. In a different environment, perhaps talking with paint and path people, I still take a less pro-bike lane stance. You've never seen me take this position because HH has always been here, making a moderate position impossible.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    this is more like the Festuvus "Airing of the greivances" than any attempts at changing minds of the usual suspects.

    I hope the onlookers don't get duped by all the crapola and emotional hijinks, the sophistry and cloudy semantic wrangling of a guy that doesn't even ride much.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #4
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    When I first started on Bikeforums, I used to think old helmie was off is rocker, but at least might have known to a certain extent what he was talking about - now after spending my forum time in VC threads - I fear I have to retract the last part of my original impression of him. Sorry buddy

    I have myself though become less of a die-hard, take the lane only person. I used to really look down on sidewalk riders and never touched bikelanes. Now I do use bike lanes if they serve my purpose and realize that everyone just has to choose their own way to ride and we do need bikelanes for the average person who does not want to ride in traffic with cars as I feel it takes a certain bit of control and strength to safely ride with traffic at the required speeds to be safe(er) - the only time I look down on them now is if they are threatening my safety - i.e. wrong way riders or bike lane riders who aren't paying attention to us around them.

    Thanks Helmet Head for convincing me that when I was so diehard about my previous stance on the issues I looked like a mindless robot with no experience outside of my own little laboratory.
    Last edited by natelutkjohn; 05-18-07 at 06:51 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member BLIZZ's Avatar
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    I came here without a side, and still am not completely on one side or the other.
    I think both sides have merrit, and I feel that neither side has all the answeres for all the situations in all the instances in all the areas of the country, or even in different areas of one city, or different types of roadways.
    The sad part is that there are sides, and that people can't come to gether for the common good of all.
    Such is life, and people in general.
    I will tell you though, that I have learned from this forum and that it has modified the way I ride.
    I'm not totally useless....I can be used as a BAD example.

  6. #6
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    I have certainly learned things that changed the shape of my beliefs.

    More generally ...

    I think that an optimal riding strategy considering speed, safety, and environment has no simple answer.

    Likewise, the optimal advocacy strategy is complex since many causal relationships are poorly understood and the social value of various cycling facilities/programs/road-improvements is hard to measure relative to other worthy goals; e.g., more hospitals for the poor.

  7. #7
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    I hope I won't have to wrestle anybody in the "feats of strength".

  8. #8
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBigMan

    Give me chocolate. I want chocolate (spiced with pepper.)
    then I reccomend "wicked hot chocolate"

    http://www.jacquestorres.com/detail.aspx?ID=54

  9. #9
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    I hope I won't have to wrestle anybody in the "feats of strength".
    Get the metal pole.

  10. #10
    ROM 6:23 flipped4bikes's Avatar
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    I think everyone wants to be safe, motorists and cyclists alike. However, that goes out the window too readily when convenience is taken into consideration. That goes for both sides, cager vs biker, VC vs non-VC, and everyone in between.

    As my sig suggests, I try to compromise and cooperate with others. But I do still get ornery when I perceive that someone disregards my safety when I'm trying my best to do so. Maybe too ornery, but what the heck...
    Every time we let a vehicle pass there is a little bit of compromise. But compromise allows the city to function and allows cyclists to function in the city. The trick is not to eliminate compromise but to learn how to work safely within it.

    --Robert Hurst

  11. #11
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    I have not changed my mind. however I have learned some things from VC and use some of their methods but I think overall they are on the wrong track when it comes to opposing certain road stripes

  12. #12
    Conservative Hippie
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    I've changed my mind. It was quite a while back. I used to believe bike lanes were helpful to cyclists. I now realize that bike lanes, trails and MUPs are not for cyclists. They are for the convenience of motorists by moving bicycles out of the way, while contributing nothing to cyclist safety.

    I've also changed my mind about the safety aspect of helmets. Used to be I was never on a bike without a helmet. For a while I sometimes wore a helmet, sometimes I didn't. Now I'm back to wearing a helmet...most of the time anyway, but if I don't feel like wearing one, I don't lose any sleep over it.

  13. #13
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Referencing my riding to a vehicular model/mindset is has become far more clear to me over the years.

    Where I believe bike lanes are and are not appropriate has become refined over the years.

    Al

  14. #14
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laika
    then I reccomend "wicked hot chocolate"

    http://www.jacquestorres.com/detail.aspx?ID=54
    Yes!
    No worries

  15. #15
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    A number of members here have changed my mind on the importance of chocolate (I am serious.) As well as seeing that there are no easy answers in accommodating cyclists.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  16. #16
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    I used to think I was a vehicular cyclist, but helmet head changed my mind - after reading his BS for the last couple of years, I've decided I'm no longer interested in being associated with his ilk.

  17. #17
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Did you? What does it mean to change one's mind? Are you meaning to ask if I've learned more about the subject and are better informed? If so, then yes, of course. If you mean that I used to bicycle vehicularly and now I ride against traffic on the sidewalk, then no.

    Are you trying to refer to yea or neigh on bike lanes? Yes. Actually I used to believe quite seriously in the VC position (seriously, not in jest here) but many discussions with HH and others have strengthened my position in favor of bike lanes. Realize that I originally took the "pro-bike lane" position just to debate with HH. In a different environment, perhaps talking with paint and path people, I still take a less pro-bike lane stance. You've never seen me take this position because HH has always been here, making a moderate position impossible.
    Why and/or how is your position affected by the presence of anyone else in any manner whatsoever?
    Are you suggesting that your position depends on the position of others?

  18. #18
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    My mind has definetly been changed about vehicular cycling.

    I used to think helmet head was a guy that rode a lot and had some experience to back up his word count and his blather about bicycling, but after reading a lot of his posts, and connecting the dots RE: his driving and occasional riding, realizing he's a weekend Club Fredd rider and big internet armchair cyclist. Similar in malady to armchair mountaineers in the climbing community.

    if this is the most outspoken spokesperson BF has about vehicular bicycling, VC and this forum is in a very sorry situation.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #19
    Speed Demon *roll eyes*
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    For me, the way I ride has changed a bit. I am more assertive than I was before, and less aggressive.

    However, on the VC vs non-VC debate, I am fence sitting in a way.

    I use VC techniques when needed (and they often are in cities) but on rural roads (like the one leading from home to the city) I do not take the lane, but instead use the 2 meter and wider bike lane since it is there and freshly paved. The one like it in the city that is very rough, I ignore. If a bike path leading through the middle of the city is the shortest way to where I am going, I take it. If a bike path offers a nicer quieter route, and I am not in a hurry, I take it. If I need to blast through an industrial park on my bike (think high speed artery road) I take that.

    Distaining one means of riding over another does not make sense to me. What makes sense to me is using my judgement about individual situations armed with the knowledge about what to do. For this, the VC debate has been great.
    1998 Specialized S-works Hardtail - hotrodded
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