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Old 05-23-07, 11:33 AM   #1
Helmet Head
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Contest: Essence of the BL arguments

This thread is a contest!

Let's see who can state the essence of the pro-Bike Lane and anti-BL positions most succinctly.

As the OP, I'll be the judge, so I won't enter the contest (you've had enough of my opinions anyway). But if you feel someone's entry is particularly good, post in support of it, and the judge will take your words of support under consideration. Because of my bias, I will probably defer to someone like Gene or the Ratliffs to recognize the best pro-BL entry.

There are three potential winners:
  • The entry which explains why vehicular cycling advocates are opposed to most if not all bike lanes on urban and suburban surface streets accurately and more succinctly than any other entry.
  • The entry which explains why bike lane advocates support at least well-designed if not as many as possible bike lanes on urban and suburban surface streets accurately and more succinctly than any other entry.
  • The entry which explains both positions accurately and more succinctly than any other entry.

Grand Prize: Recognition and adulation from forum members!

Entry deadline: midnight, one week from today: Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Good luck!
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Old 05-23-07, 11:52 AM   #2
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I know that you recused yourself, but I'd like to nominate your post.

I think this gem best explains the HH reasoning behind opposing bike lanes:

Quote:
I'll be the judge
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Old 05-23-07, 12:06 PM   #3
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Pro Bike Lane: Bike lane stripes and stencils make it clear to everyone that there is room for motorists to pass bicyclists on the left without delay.

Anti Bike Lane: For safety and efficiency, cyclists must often operate farther from the roadway edge, and often where motorists cannot pass on the left, with or without delay. This contra-indicates bike-specific positioning markings on most ordinary roads since these traffic control devices would need to be ignored so frequently as to be useless or harmful.

Last edited by sggoodri; 05-23-07 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 05-23-07, 12:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Pro Bike Lane: Bike lanes make it clear to everyone that there is room for motorists to pass bicyclists on the left without delay.

Anti Bike Lane: For safety and efficiency, cyclists must often operate farther from the roadway edge, and often where motorists cannot pass on the left, with or without delay, which contra-indicates bike-specific pavement markings on most ordinary roads.
Mine's shorter, but contains all of the substance of yours:
ProBikeLane:Bikelanesmakeitcleartoeveryonethatthereisroomformotoriststopassbicyclistsontheleftwithou tdelay.AntiBikeLane:Forsafetyandefficiency,cyclistsmustoftenoperatefartherfromtheroadwayedge,andofte nwheremotoristscannotpassontheleft,withorwithoutdelay,whichcontraindicatesbikespecificpavementmarkin gsonmostordinaryroads
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Old 05-23-07, 12:56 PM   #5
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Can we slaughter the lamb in your honor anywhere or should we wait we wait for the shrine to the almighty intellect of BF to be finished?
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Old 05-23-07, 01:17 PM   #6
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Being Judged by the guy who makes it up as he goes? No f'ing thankyou! But if I was judging, Pete (*edit* it appears Pete erased his post, so no, I'm not seeing things, it's just not there anymore, ) and Zeytoun's first post seem to have hit it right on.

But what the heck (since I have no worries about winning and therefore being judged by old HH there)-

Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses

Last edited by natelutkjohn; 05-24-07 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 05-23-07, 05:28 PM   #7
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HH you are wasting valuable energy on the whole anti-bike lane situation. Why be opposed to something that hardly exists where you live? Just focus on the Vehicular Cycling principles and everything else should just fall into place for you.

Or maybe you don't really care about VC and are more concerned with your ego here on BF. I guess it's a lot easier to be against something than it is to be for something and try to get others to do it.
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Old 05-23-07, 09:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Being Judged by the guy who makes it up as he goes? No f'ing thankyou! But if I was judging, Pete and Zeytoun's first post seem to have hit it right on.

But what the heck (since I have no worries about winning and therefore being judged by old HH there)-

Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
My vote goes to you.
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Old 05-23-07, 10:03 PM   #9
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I'm going with natutlukjohn on this one too.

It's a contest and helemt head gets to be the judge? oh, brother. that dude hardly rides.

Last edited by Bekologist; 05-29-07 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 05-23-07, 10:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses

I vote for that one.

ooops! wait a minute what was I thinking. I don't get a vote!

Yikes! and what am I doing in the A&S forum

and OMG! I'm posting in response to this ridiculous thread!
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Old 05-23-07, 10:15 PM   #11
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Best.Thread.Evar.
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Old 05-24-07, 08:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Pro-bikelane - We support bicycling for the masses
Anti-bike lane - We do not support bicycling for the masses
That sounds right.
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Old 05-24-07, 09:27 AM   #13
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Pro-bikelane: Bike lanes remove the cyclist from the normal flow of traffic and thus minimize the dangers of on-road cycling.

Anti-bikelane: Bike lanes attempt to remove the cyclist from the normal flow of traffic and in doing so create more hazards than previously existed by forcing two seperate flows of traffic onto a roadway only designed for one.
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Old 05-24-07, 09:29 AM   #14
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My entry: Bike lanes - they ain't just for dinner any more.
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Old 05-24-07, 09:35 AM   #15
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who's ever said bike lanes remove bicyclists from roadway traffic flow?
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Old 05-24-07, 09:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
who's ever said bike lanes remove bicyclists from roadway traffic flow?
I'll assume this is directed at my post. I read it ALL the time on this forum. It's even more common in other forums let alone amongst the general population. It's implicit in the term "bike lane."
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Old 05-24-07, 09:52 AM   #17
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i'd totally disagree with your assessment that bike lanes are designed to remove bikes from roadway traffic flow.
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Old 05-24-07, 09:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
i'd totally disagree with your assessment that bike lanes are designed to remove bikes from roadway traffic flow.
It's not my assessment. It's my statement of the pro-bike lane stance. Feel free to disagree but good luck finding a majority of pro-bike laners who agree with you.
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Old 05-24-07, 10:34 AM   #19
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Well since HH liked this so much... I am just going to post it here for the contest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by genec
The reasons I understand are that BL are not strictly vehicular; putting cyclists in positions that are not destination positioned and or putting cyclists in a place on the road that is not in compliance with the rules of the road; such as to the right of slower moving traffic... therefore BL are not part of the whole vehicular stance... another reason is that BL set certain expectations in motorists minds about where cyclists are supposed to be... and last, that BL are discriminatory in that they create a special "class" of vehicle with it's own rules.

However the above reasoning while having some merit, tends to fall on deaf ears because bicycles do not fully fit into the traffic pattern of faster moving traffic... Unlike the often given examples of cement trucks and tractors; bicycles are human power vehicles that have different "behaviour" patterns from powered vehicles (and yes I am speaking of cyclists verses vehicles... comparing humans to machines vice comparing the rights of cyclists to the rights of motorists). HPV have different speed and load patterns, and for the most part are a very narrow vehicle that can also easily merge with and operate with walking pedestrians in nearly any environment that peds also access (stairs being the limit).

So while the rights of the operators of each vehicle may be equal, the charateristics are not... and these charateristic differences should not be "equalized" by laws but should embraced and flaunted. We expect cars to go faster... we expect bicycles to "sneak" between cars at stops, we expect bikes to go slow up hills... we expect bikes to be able to access sidewalks. There are expectations based on realities that simply do not fit into a strictly vehicular picture.

In some cases cycling may mean being strictly vehicular... in others it may mean sidewalks and paths offer access to locations that autos cannot access. In some cases the road may be so designed that cyclists are at a severe disadvantage due to speed... do we then force all operators of other vehicles to acquiesce to the limitations of HPV, or do we simply provide different facilities? Where is the line we are willing to draw?

Where the vehicular only stance falls short is that being strictly vehicular misses embracing some of the unique charateristics of a bicycle... and attempts to force HPV to fit into the powered vehicle world.

Bike lanes are an attempt to capitalize on some of the charateristics of bikes while granting acceptable access to the roads... in an attempt to maintain the aforementioned rights of all users of the road. The result has been some perceived diminished rights to the road, but these diminished rights are not based on the designs of BL, but on the misconceptions of the powered vehicle operators and an overwhelming desire to give the majority vehicles on the road (with different operating charateristics) a majority of the road surface.

BL are not perfect... but then neither is strict vehicular cycling... the reality is that utilizing all the charateristics of a bike, an operator is likely to be in many different modes... and using BL are just part of the larger picture.
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Old 05-24-07, 10:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joejack951
It's not my assessment. It's my statement of the pro-bike lane stance. Feel free to disagree but good luck finding a majority of pro-bike laners who agree with you.
Yes, I think Bek is pretty unique in his position of thinking that bike lanes integrate cyclists with traffic flow. I think most bike lane supporters believe integration is not possible (whether they realize they believe this or not; whether they characterize their belief in these words or not) and they like bike lanes because they feel the stripe clarifies the segregation.
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Old 05-24-07, 11:32 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
i'd totally disagree with your assessment that bike lanes are designed to remove bikes from roadway traffic flow.
I'm confused. You once wrote the following about vehicular cycling:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
Why hasn't VC caught on, Diane? Because riders, as a group, don't want to ride in high speed traffic. cities with better planning for bicycling via infrastructure have more cyclists on the roads.
If bike lanes are not perceived to remove cyclists from the flow of traffic, which you say they don't want to ride in, then what makes the striped design better than the unstriped wide outside lanes of equal passing space that vehicular cyclists promote?
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Old 05-24-07, 11:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sggoodri
I'm confused. You once wrote the following about vehicular cycling:



If bike lanes are not perceived to remove cyclists from the flow of traffic, which you say they don't want to ride in, then what makes the striped design better than the unstriped wide outside lanes of equal passing space that vehicular cyclists promote?
Perhaps what I said above does apply to Bek, especially the bolded part:

Quote:
I think most bike lane supporters believe integration is not possible (whether they realize they believe this or not; whether they characterize their belief in these words or not) and they like bike lanes because they feel the stripe clarifies the segregation.
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Old 05-24-07, 11:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I think most bike lane supporters believe integration is not possible (whether they realize they believe this or not; whether they characterize their belief in these words or not) ...
It is not even necessary for these supporters to be aware of their own beliefs! HH knows better! HH has learned well the technique from his guru of divining the unstated intentions/motivations of those who don't share his passions. This is too silly for further comment.
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Old 05-24-07, 12:09 PM   #24
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Bike lane haters: Paint make people ride incompetently
Bike lane supporters: Incompetence makes people ride incompetently
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Old 05-24-07, 12:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Bike lane haters: Paint make people ride incompetently
Bike lane supporters: Incompetence makes people ride incompetently
Might as well stop the contest - we have a winner!
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