Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 231
  1. #1
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
    Posts
    4,077
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    VC vs Bike Lanes vs Incompetent Cyclists

    This is sort of fall out from Foresterís talk at Google

    For those of you who donít know Baltimore it is a wonderful VC city, hardly any bike lanes, lots of nice 35mph or slower roads. It also has a nice grid network so if the road you are on is too busy for you, you can generally find a parallel one thatís better. It also has some nasty bike crash rates. Of course without any estimate on exposure it is hard to say just how nasty those nasty crash rates are. My instincts tells me there are fewer cyclists here then in NYC (for example) yet our injury rate is about three times higher and on average our fatality rate is slightly higher (per population.) NYC has bike lanes for crying out loud and we donít so what gives? Well about a third of our bike crashes involve a wrong way cyclist and not to mention sidewalk cyclists. So thus the incompetent cyclist enters the picture.

    Forester seems to negate the incompetent cyclists as they can be taught but at the same time he is doubtful that the established educational system will be receptive to proper (or even adequate) VC training. That leads me to wonder just how this miracle transformation is going to take place.

    In regards to bike lanes, they donít scare me one bit. If I am driving my car I chose the lane that facilities my travel and I do the same when I drive my bike. If I am driving a car and I donít like the right hand lane because it is too narrow and right next to parked cars (we have that kind of thing in Baltimore) then I donít drive there and most other drivers donít either. If cyclists need to be taught VC for their safety and once taught they can ignore bike lanes when appropriate then I donít see what all the fuss is about especially considering my next point.

    Forester puts a lot of emphasis on studies and inferences on the superiority of VC over bike lanes but what about Bike Lanes vs the Incompetent Cyclists? I see studies that at least hint that bike lanes get most cyclists off the sidewalk and riding on the right side of the street. Other stats seem to indicate bike lanes increase the number of cyclists with the crash stats staying about the same. Which lead me to speculate that bike lanes at least trade non-vehicular cycling (really unsafe) with something that is relatively safer and if we can teach those cyclists VC we would have something safer yet.

    Forester makes fun of the incompetent point stating something to the effect that as soon as you get on a bike you become incompetent in the eyes of law makers and road engineers but from looking at the cityís crash data it looks like we do have a lot of incompetent cyclists, I wish it was not true, but there it is.
    Cycling Advocate
    http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  2. #2
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    forester's deep in denial RE: the efficacy of bike infrastructure. he can call it what he may, using his sophistic skills, but there's a lot of positive sides to bike infrastructure. and studies to back up their efficacy. despite forester claiming bike infrastructure is part of some 'inferiority conspiracy' 'developed by motorists'

    what a crock. Bollocks.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-25-07 at 02:45 AM.

  3. #3
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car
    I see studies that at least hint that bike lanes get most cyclists off the sidewalk and riding on the right side of the street. Other stats seem to indicate bike lanes increase the number of cyclists with the crash stats staying about the same. Which lead me to speculate that bike lanes at least trade non-vehicular cycling (really unsafe) with something that is relatively safer and if we can teach those cyclists VC we would have something safer yet.
    These are exactly the reasons they put on-street cycling facilities in place. It's not an evil plot to push cyclists out of the way like the Paranoid Master of VC would have you believe. It's simply the way that works best to get cyclists to ride in the right direction and stay off the sidewalk, which is necessary for their safety and part of the government's job to protect the general welfare of the populace.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  4. #4
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car
    I see studies that at least hint that bike lanes get most cyclists off the sidewalk and riding on the right side of the street. Other stats seem to indicate bike lanes increase the number of cyclists with the crash stats staying about the same. Which lead me to speculate that bike lanes at least trade non-vehicular cycling (really unsafe) with something that is relatively safer and if we can teach those cyclists VC we would have something safer yet.
    These are exactly the reasons they put on-street cycling facilities in place. It's not an evil plot to push cyclists out of the way like the Paranoid Master of VC would have you believe. It's simply the way that works best to get cyclists to ride in the right direction and stay off the sidewalk, which is necessary for their safety and part of the government's job to protect the general welfare of the populace.
    I think the truth lies in the middle.

    I mean, "at least hint", "seem to indicate" and "lead me to speculate" are not very definitive about anything.

    But it's enough to justify bike lanes for most because it provides the modicum of confirmation of their basic instinctive inclination that cars and bikes should be separated as much as possible.

    This is why the anti-BL folks are so despised and seen as hating bike lanes in the cycling community. It's instinctive. Big, fast, heavy, smelly cars are fundamentally threatening to most bicyclists, and anything that even might protect them is seen in a positive light, hence the support for bike lanes. And anyone seen as opposing that perceived potential protection is seen as an enemy, instinctively.

    It's certainly NOT "simply the way that works best to get cyclists to ride in the right direction and stay off the sidewalk". That's just another rationalization. At best, maybe it does that for a few cyclists here and there. Maybe.

    Both sides can claim rationalization on the other side.
    But if you claim the stated reasons of the other side are mere rationalization obscuring the true motivation, what is the true motivation?

    The anti-BLers believe the true motivations of the pro-BLers is a mix of a desire to get bikes out of the way in order to not inconvenience motorists, an irrational fear of getting hit from behind, and an instinctive desire to separate cars from bikes.

    The pro-BLers believe the true motivation of the anti-BLers are... what? That we hate bike lanes? But why? What are the real reasons we hate bike lanes?

    That is what is missing from the pro-BL argument: an explanation for the true motivations of the anti-BLers that would allow them to discount the stated anti-BL reasons as rationalizations obscuring the true motivations.

    Bottom line... for those of you who think Forester, I and other VC advocates hate bike lanes (which is not true - but that's beside the point if it's what you believe), what is your explanation for why we hate them?
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-25-07 at 09:07 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,767
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    These are exactly the reasons they put on-street cycling facilities in place. It's not an evil plot to push cyclists out of the way like the Paranoid Master of VC would have you believe. It's simply the way that works best to get cyclists to ride in the right direction and stay off the sidewalk, which is necessary for their safety and part of the government's job to protect the general welfare of the populace.
    That's a stretch to say that it's "necessary for their safety" to get cyclists off sidewalks. What would help is for those sidewalk cyclists to understand right of way and how, when operating on a pedestrian facility, that one should operate as a pedestrian. Similarly, when operating on a vehicular facility, operating as a vehicle is the best way to operate, thus riding in the same direction as the rest of traffic is a given. Bike lanes do very little towards suggesting operating as a vehicle while in the roadway and encourage operating as if the cyclist is not part of vehicular traffic (and that's how the bike lane advocates want it to be).

  6. #6
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    joe, you think communities shouldn't try to get riders off the sidewalks and onto the roads? say what?

    the studies and evidence supporting the efficacy of bike lane infrastructure are apparant. bike lanes increase road cycling, improve cyclists' road position and help reduce the indexed crash rates for cyclists.

    bike lanes encourage greater use of bikes for transportation. bike lanes discourage curb hugging in wide outside lanes. bike lanes striped to the left of right hand turn lanes encourage proper destination positioning for thru bicycling.

    bike infrastructure encourages road use by bicyclists. That IS an important advocacy goal.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,767
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    joe, you think communities shouldn't try to get riders off the sidewalks and onto the roads? say what?

    the studies and evidence supporting the efficacy of bike lane infrastructure are apparant. bike lanes increase road cycling, improve cyclists' road position and help reduce the indexed crash rates for cyclists.

    bike lanes encourage greater use of bikes for transportation. bike lanes discourage curb hugging in wide outside lanes. bike lanes striped to the left of right hand turn lanes encourage proper destination positioning for thru bicycling.

    bike infrastructure encourages road use by bicyclists. That IS an important advocacy goal.
    I don't think that simply because there is a bike lane should the reason why cyclists transition from the sidewalk to the road. If they are going to ride incompetently, they are a hazard to themselves no matter where they ride. Remember Bek, a competent cyclist can use a road, a bike lane, a sidewalk, a sidepath, or a bike path. An incompetent cyclist could use an education.

  8. #8
    In his altogether huge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    My Bikes
    198? Norco Magnum GT
    Posts
    58
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car
    ... Of course without any estimate on exposure it is hard to say just how nasty those nasty crash rates are. My instincts tells me there are fewer cyclists here then in NYC (for example) yet our injury rate is about three times higher and on average our fatality rate is slightly higher (per population.) NYC has bike lanes for crying out loud and we don’t so what gives? Well about a third of our bike crashes involve a wrong way cyclist and not to mention sidewalk cyclists. So thus the incompetent cyclist enters the picture.

    ....
    I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but this statement invalidates any argument that can be made. We will all have different "gut feelings" about anything. Until someone can provide hard data (by which I mean, data not based on a feeling), the conversation will go in circles. No offense, but instincts don't count. Maybe your guesses are really wrong.
    Some of us are cursed with memories like flypaper. Stuck there is a staggering amount of miscellaneous data, most of it useless.

    If you're interested:
    My New Blog: CipherDreamer

  9. #9
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,378
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    I don't think that simply because there is a bike lane should the reason why cyclists transition from the sidewalk to the road. If they are going to ride incompetently, they are a hazard to themselves no matter where they ride. Remember Bek, a competent cyclist can use a road, a bike lane, a sidewalk, a sidepath, or a bike path. An incompetent cyclist could use an education.
    Agreed that someone is not "just going to transition..." However...

    BL can indicate to some folks that the road is the place to ride. And they do use BL. I see this daily near a college on my route.

    As far as education... yup, some of that could be used too... but as yet no one has offered any way of reaching those who need the education the most... those "least competent" cyclists that are not likely to seek such education on their own, are not likely to go to a bike shop and otherwise are not part of any formalized cycling organization. Since there is no way to reach these folks... BL offer at least some method of passive instruction... it is best to make BL as instructive as possible. Arrows pointing in the proper directions, signs (which are tiny compared to auto signs) that suggest when to leave the lane, BL that are dashed before intersections, and BL that end before intersections and are to the left of ROTL. Don't put BL in door zones. There are a host of things that can be done to improve what BL can do... a simple line of paint doesn't even come close.



    Guide these less skilled cyclists with passive instruction... just as signs out on freeways instruct motorists to Keep Right unless Passing, and Yield when Entering, and Watch for Trucks and Don't Litter and other such informative instructional signs. They exist for motorists... why not for cyclists?

    Signs for motorists would help too... such as "Yield to Bikes" before crossing the BL.


  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,834
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Joe, I clicked your link from the helmet thread and followed my nose to this thread. Thanks for the unintentional intro to the madcap world of "VC".

    So as an outsider, I'll just post a few thoughts.

    First, I'll mention that I'm not completely inexperienced. I got on the bike more than twenty years ago, made a (bad) living at racing for a few years, and later earned a bit of a name as a track racing coach. That's not to blow my own horn -- it's hardly bragging material -- but I do want folks to know where I'm coming from.

    Having said that, I like bike lanes. I don't know crap about the intent of VC advocates or their "enemies", I don't know anything about the politics of various road users, and I think riding on sidewalks is stupid, unless you're going 5 MPH. All I know is that I'm really, really slow compared to the majority of road users -- ie. car drivers -- and I like to get as far away from them as possible because they present a threat to my life. I nice wide bike lane does exactly that. I suppose there's some small merit to the idea that bike lanes encourage thinking of cyclists as a "separate class" of road user, but then, bicyclists as a separate class of road user is the reality. We're a lot different.

    Now, all of this assumes that your roads are exactly like mine, which is of course a stupid assumption. Joe outlined his ideas of riding in the middle of the lane to me on another thread, and my first reaction was "Wow. That'll get you killed quick!" But when I thought about it in the context of the roads he typically rides, it began to make more sense. I might take the same approach, on his roads.

    But on my roads, traffic tends to average around 60 MPH and is normally heavy enough that there are only a few seconds between the passage of each car. A cyclist in the middle of such a road is an active hazard. Bike lanes on those roads are absolutely wonderful and make cycling a relatively enjoyable experience rather than a harrowing adventure.

    So maybe I'm a genius who will revolutionize the topic by pointing out that a one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work here. Or maybe not.

  11. #11
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Six jours - it's not about the space, it's about the stripe.
    If you remove the stripe, the space that "make[s] cycling a relatively enjoyable experience rather than a harrowing adventure" is still there.

    Your comment, "Wow. That'll get you killed quick!" seems like you think faster traffic from behind is a significant threat. Do you?

    Where do you live/ride?

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,834
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    BTW, I'm an hour north of Genec. The bottom picture he posted shows a fairly typical road around here, although the traffic in that exact shot would be considered fairly light. The speed limit on a street like that will typically be 45 MPH, and the average driver on a road like that is going to be travelling between 50-60 MPH, depending upon the number of lights and stop signs.

    I wouldn't ride in the middle of those traffic lanes. It would irritate the daylights out of other road users at the very least, and I believe it would tremendously increase risk to the cyclist. Even with a mirror, the cyclist would be constantly monitoring traffic, signalling drivers, and dodging in and out of the bike lane. We tailgate in Southern California, and we drive fast and make sudden manuevers. It wouldn't be long before an angry motorist ran up behind a cyclist at high speed, made a sudden lane change, and then the tailgater behind him runs smack into the cyclist.

    <edit> Interesting to note that Helmet Head lives in the same neighborhood. I honestly can't understand anyone making a habit of riding centered in traffic lanes in urban Southern California. I imagine anyone who does takes a lot of flak both from motorists and fellow cyclists.
    Last edited by Six jours; 05-25-07 at 11:04 AM.

  13. #13
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    head. space alone on the road does NOT encourage cycling. there are studies that observed better road position on roads with bike lanes, VERSUS curb hugging on wide outside lanes.

    space alone on the road encourages curb hugging, sidewalk cycling, and ambigious lane sharing from vehicles.

    you are so terribly anti-bike lane, yet you use them on your (sometimes) bike commutes- when you're NOT DRIVING.

  14. #14
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,354
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Six jours - it's not about the space, it's about the stripe.
    If you remove the stripe, the space that "make[s] cycling a relatively enjoyable experience rather than a harrowing adventure" is still there.

    Your comment, "Wow. That'll get you killed quick!" seems like you think faster traffic from behind is a significant threat. Do you?

    Where do you live/ride?
    Thus proving that you have a paint phobia...if the line is meaningless and you ignore it as you claim, why do you obsess so much over it? Paint phobia, or because you are a one of them types who likes to transfer their phobias unto others.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,834
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Six jours - it's not about the space, it's about the stripe.
    If you remove the stripe, the space that "make[s] cycling a relatively enjoyable experience rather than a harrowing adventure" is still there.
    Maybe. I tend to think that little line makes a difference, but I can't base that upon anything concrete. Again to use SoCal as an example, it seems that drivers can't function without handholding via lines and instructions, myself included. I visited rural Arkansas a while back and was an active hazard in my car. Without perfectly painted lines everywhere, I had to actually think about what I was doing in my car. This is an unusual occurence for a SoCal driver.

    Your comment, "Wow. That'll get you killed quick!" seems like you think faster traffic from behind is a significant threat. Do you?
    Yes. Of the half dozen friends I have lost to car-bike interractions over the years, five were hit from behind.

    Where do you live/ride?
    See the above cross-post.

    BTW, just a note: I am not anybody's enemy. We may have different ideas on the details of how to ride, but if you're on a bike I'm on your side. Not that I think anyone's been rude to me at A&S, but folks do seem to get their feathers ruffled around here from time to time.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,767
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    but as yet no one has offered any way of reaching those who need the education the most... those "least competent" cyclists that are not likely to seek such education on their own, are not likely to go to a bike shop and otherwise are not part of any formalized cycling organization.
    This is the most frustrating part of the whole thing to me. There are plenty of cyclists who are well-off enough to have the resources to find education on how to properly ride a bike in traffic. Yet, so many of these potentially-competent cyclists act just like the incompetents (ok, so they ride in bike lanes instead of on the sidewalk, whoop dee doo). If all of the potentially-competent cyclists actually rode in a competent manner, it would be a lot easier for these other cyclists to pick up on how it should be done.

  17. #17
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    amazing hyperbole, joejack.

    what makes you say incompetant bicyclists use bike lanes? You don't HAVE any bike lanes where you live, correct?

    Additionally, vehicular bicyclists can ride in bike lanes, dude. The precepts of Vehicular cycling include using bike lanes and on the shoulders of high speed roads. why persist in your dystopian, misleading vision quest?

    Competant, vehicular cyclists can use and advocate for bike infrastructure, joe.

    Head's method (and yours, apparantly) of dodging in and out of a perfectly acceptable bike lane in front of traffic because of traffic fear, THAT'S borderline incompetance, joe.

    Oh, that's right, Joe, you claim you don't HAVE any bike lanes where you ride daily. so your argument about your bike lane use and the supossedly incompetant bicyclists using them is fantastical internet postulations....
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-25-07 at 11:18 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    5,834
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If all of the potentially-competent cyclists actually rode in a competent manner, it would be a lot easier for these other cyclists to pick up on how it should be done.
    IM grumpy old bastard O, the "Lance boom" has resulted in too many new cyclists for the old guard to educate. The result is entire clubs full of cyclists who don't know what they're doing, don't know that they don't know what they're doing, and so are unwittingly reinforcing each other's incompetence -- to the point that any "outsiders" who mention that they don't actually need to fall over quite so often are seen as enemies.

    I don't know what to do about this, except to hope that Lance's retirement and Landis' antics will send the boomers back to the racquetball courts.
    Last edited by Six jours; 05-25-07 at 11:15 AM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,767
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    amazing hyperbole, joejack.

    what makes you say incompetant bicyclistsz use bike lanes? You don't HAVE any bike lanes where you live, correct?

    Additionally, vehicular bicyclists can ride in bike lanes, dude. Vehicular cycling includes using bike lanes and on the shoulders of high speed roads. why persist in your dystopian, misleading vision quest?

    Competant, vehicular cyclists can use and advocate for bike infrastructure, joe.

    Head's method (and yours, apparantly) of dodging in and out of a perfectly acceptable bike lane in front of traffic because of traffic fear, THAT'S borderline incompetance, joe.

    Oh, that's right, Joe, you claim you don't HAVE any bike lanes where you ride daily. so your argument about your bike lane use and the supossedly incompetant bicyclists using them is fantastical internet postulations....
    Bek, I've explained to you many times, and even once through PM, that I do have bike lanes where I live, just not on my normal commute to work, which is what I most often ride. Please give up on your attempts to make it sound like I'm arguing against something that I have no experience with.

    I have never denied that a vehicular cyclist can use a bike lane or a shoulder. I do it plenty when the situation calls for it. I don't default to it though.

    Now, would you deny that an incompetent cyclist can ride in a bike lane or shoulder?

  20. #20
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    why mischaracterize bicyclists that use bike lanes as incompetant? you do. plenty, sounds like. so does helemt head. i bet his occasional bike commute is 90 percent bike laned arterials and steady traffic.

    dodging in and out of an acceptable bike lane, in the face of overtaking traffic, becuase of traffic fear, that's borderline incompetance, joe. what makes a bike lane safe in the presence of traffic but unsafe in the absence of traffic? the lack of vehicles?

    and remember, joe, that i also move in and out of bike lanes....

  21. #21
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Six jours
    <edit> Interesting to note that Helmet Head lives in the same neighborhood. I honestly can't understand anyone making a habit of riding centered in traffic lanes in urban Southern California. I imagine anyone who does takes a lot of flak both from motorists and fellow cyclists.
    Well, I do ride in bike lanes between intersections when it is safe and reasonable to do so. But it's the space that allows me to do that, not the stripe. If the stripe were not there, I would ride in the same.

    Surely you go up and down the coast. A great way to test/experience a more assertive style is by taking the lane on coastal 101, from, say, La Costa Blvd down to Del Mar. Ride out left of the right tire mark, about where you would if you were on a motorcycle. Riding in that position keeps you out of the door zone, forces same direction faster traffic to change lanes to pass you instead of trying to squeeze into the right lane with you, improves your sight lines to/from traffic moving in and out of all those places on the right (west), and gives you more room to the right for error/escape margin. In some sections the lane widens so that you can safely and reasonably move aside to allow faster traffic to pass, but those sections are the exception, not the rule on this road.

    A lot of cyclists complain about traffic and getting hooked on this stretch, but it's really quite nice and pleasant if you position yourself appropriately.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,767
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    why mischaracterize bicyclists that use bike lanes as incompetant? you do. plenty, sounds like.
    Huh? I asked you if an incompetent cyclist could use a bike lane, in response to you saying that a competent cyclist could use a bike lane (to which I agreed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    dodging in and out of an acceptable bike lane, in the face of overtaking traffic, becuase of traffic fear, that's borderline incompetance, joe. what makes a bike lane safe in the presence of traffic but unsafe in the absence of traffic? the lack of vehicles?
    You've had this explained to you so many times it's getting ridiculous. There's traffic (which you can't always see all of) and there's faster same direction traffic which is easily monitored in a rear view mirror. Think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    and remember, joe, that i also move in and out of bike lanes....
    I can hear the chest beating from my cube, 3000 miles away.

    One more thing, did it sink in yet that I do have bike lanes in my area?

  23. #23
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    chest beating? hardly.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i, 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1
    Posts
    8,767
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist


    chest beating? hardly.
    So are you going to respond to my post or dodge all the tough questions as usual?

  25. #25
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,012
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i don't see any questions in your last couple of posts, joe. well, maybe one.

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack
    Huh?
    certainly nothing TOUGH, dude.

    Oh, oh, the "did it sink" yet question? no, not the way you proudly claim on this forum about the lack of bike lanes where you live. get your story straight, joe. like with that 'right hook' business. Is it once a week, or only twice? big contradictory statements to postulate on an internet forum.....

    I'm starting to doubt your credibility as well. it seems like the anti-bike lane BF members have to make stuff up to try and validate their agenda.

Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •