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  1. #26
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Funny but all this "understanding" of traffic patterns can be done quite well from a bike lane. Not sure what it has to do with vehicular cycling.
    ~Diane
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  2. #27
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Bike messengers are one example, but there are some others, including ILTB according to his own confession, and some pseudo-racing groups which have become notorious.
    Confessin' da VC Blues was I, eh? You must have me confused with Junior Wells who was singing the Viet Cong Blues.
    http://www.bluesforpeace.com/lyrics/vietcong-blues.htm

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    It appears to work though:


    And that's my point. In science you need to isolate a variable to show causation. Does VC show an improvement in safety between identical riders (same understanding of traffic, same athletic levels, same bicycles) who ride differently (say, on VC, one "inferior-style", and one "scofflaw-style")?
    It hasn't.
    So, scientifically, riding VC cannot be said to cause an improvement in safety.
    You are asking more than social science can deliver. We have to reach conclusions on similar but not identical cases. I rather doubt that a cyclist who understands traffic would ride in the cyclist-inferior method, because he would recognize that it endangered him. The scofflaw-style I identified as one who understands traffic but that refuses to obey the rules, trusting to his superior skill to counteract the added danger. But scoff-law cyclists are relatively rare. The typical cyclist who rides in the cyclist-inferior style is just plain incompetent; hence so many of the car-bike collisions documented in such things as the Cross study.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Funny but all this "understanding" of traffic patterns can be done quite well from a bike lane. Not sure what it has to do with vehicular cycling.
    You comment is utterly irrelevant. The understanding of traffic patterns is a form of knowledge that, once learned, is carried around in your brain to wherever you happen to be.

  5. #30
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    You are asking more than social science can deliver.
    No. I am asking more that you have delivered.

    All you have to do is measure the subjects of a study. Have them take a knowledge test. Have them take a fitness test. Have them fill out a survey or take a test on their riding style. Then have them log their miles, document any accidents, injuries. Is this beyond the ability of science?

    I rather doubt that a cyclist who understands traffic would ride in the cyclist-inferior method, because he would recognize that it endangered him.
    Circular logic.

    All I am pointing out, John, is that you are comparing a vehicular cyclist who also understand traffic patterns to a non-vehicular cyclist who does not understand traffic.

    Understanding traffic is a pretty big variable in safety as you have admitted, and yet has no required correlation to riding behavior, as I have demonstrated.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    No. I am asking more that you have delivered.

    All you have to do is measure the subjects of a study. Have them take a knowledge test. Have them take a fitness test. Have them fill out a survey or take a test on their riding style. Then have them log their miles, document any accidents, injuries. Is this beyond the ability of science?


    Circular logic.

    All I am pointing out, John, is that you are comparing a vehicular cyclist who also understand traffic patterns to a non-vehicular cyclist who does not understand traffic.

    Understanding traffic is a pretty big variable in safety as you have admitted, and yet has no required correlation to riding behavior, as I have demonstrated.
    You haven't demonstrated such: the example of the bicycle messengers is not such a demonstration, being quite out of the ordinary for the typical cycling populations. Yes, it is theoretically possible to take a large sample of cyclists, test their riding styles, and then log in their riding history over the duration of the test, with accidents. This has not been done. However, what has been done is to measure the accident rate per mile for different groups of cyclists. The groups were general child cyclists, general university-associated cyclists, members of several cycling organizations, new members of Cyclists' Touring Club, old members of CTC. The assumption made about cycling style is that the members of the cycling organizations studied rode in a more vehicular style than did the members of the general public or the new members of CTC. That assumption was well in accordance with observations made many times at the era of these studies. The accident rate ratios were of the order of 25 for the members vs 100 for the nonmembers.

  7. #32
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    What do you think is the causative factor behind the fact that "scofflaw" bike messengers have safety levels similar to vehicular cyclists?

    I would think that reasonable hypotheses would include, fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows, etc.


    If I told you that it was because their riding behavior was inherently safer you would laugh at me.


    And now, you can imagine very easily how the CTC members likely also share such attributes as fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows.

    So now, we can suspect that it is these attributes that are a causative factor, or we can credit something else, namely VC riding techniques.

    Have you heard of Occam's razor?
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  8. #33
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quote:
    I rather doubt that a cyclist who understands traffic would ride in the cyclist-inferior method, because he would recognize that it endangered him.
    Why would anybody think that unless they only think about cycling from the armchair and not from the bicycle seat?

    Understanding traffic doesn't stop when there's bike lane paint in the vicinity.

    You guys crack me up with your magical paint theories.
    ~Diane
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    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Why would anybody think that unless they only think about cycling from the armchair and not from the bicycle seat?

    Understanding traffic doesn't stop when there's bike lane paint in the vicinity.

    You guys crack me up with your magical paint theories.
    This puzzles me. It appears to me that bike-lane advocates have the magical paint theories, while vehicular cyclists consider the stripe to be irrelevant. The problem with bike-lane stripes is that they confuse those who are not firm in their understanding of traffic patterns, meaning the typical cyclist and the typical motorist.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    What do you think is the causative factor behind the fact that "scofflaw" bike messengers have safety levels similar to vehicular cyclists?

    I would think that reasonable hypotheses would include, fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows, etc.


    If I told you that it was because their riding behavior was inherently safer you would laugh at me.


    And now, you can imagine very easily how the CTC members likely also share such attributes as fitness, conditioned reflexes, hyper-vigilance, awareness and understanding about how traffic flows.

    So now, we can suspect that it is these attributes that are a causative factor, or we can credit something else, namely VC riding techniques.

    Have you heard of Occam's razor?
    I have seen bicycle messengers in operation, and I have seen films of them in operation. The levels of skill that they exhibit, and of risk they run, in their unlawful methods of operation, are far beyond that of the typical CTC member, or of a typical member of an American cycling club. I am considered to have very good bike handling skills, and the films I have seen taken from the handlebars of a messenger's bike, scare me to death. None of my associates would operate in that manner.

  11. #36
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    john, do you ride in bike lanes when that's the space on the road you should be riding?

    do you ride much any more?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    john, do you ride in bike lanes when that's the space on the road you should be riding?

    do you ride much any more?
    Well, of course I do. It has been written a dozen times or more that the vehicular cyclist ignores the bike-lane stripe and rides in the proper location, whatever that happens to be for the particular location and the particular traffic conditions there and the route that the cyclist intends to follow.

  13. #38
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    glad to see you admit vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    glad to see you admit vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes.
    There's no degree of admission in my statement. There's nothing to admit. There never has been any question about this, except in your own weird mind.

  15. #40
    Punk Rock Lives Roughstuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    I have frequently written that the cyclist who understands and practices vehicular cycling, because he understands the pattern by which traffic should operate, is well equipped to detect the motions of a vehicle that indicate that it is being driven in a non-vehicular manner. Therefore, such a cyclist is more able to take evasive action than is a person who, not understanding how traffic should operate, does not detect the non-vehicular operation until much later.
    Nice topic and nice spin on the VC moniker. Vigilance requires that the cyclist be alert, fully aware of the road (through rear view mirrors of whatever type you prefer), and able to anticipate and respond to actions by motor vehicles. What a nice alternative view to the endless barking about "share the road" and "we are traffic."

    roughstuff
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  16. #41
    BF's Level 12 Wizard SingingSabre's Avatar
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    Variable Chicanery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bklyn
    Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.

  17. #42
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    glad to see you admit vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes.
    Quote Originally Posted by john
    It has been written a dozen times or more that the vehicular cyclist ignores the bike-lane stripe and rides in the proper location, whatever that happens to be for the particular location and the particular traffic conditions there and the route that the cyclist intends to follow.......There's no degree of admission in my statement. There's nothing to admit. There never has been any question about this, except in your own weird mind.
    john, john.

    weather you insist in dodging the reality of vehicular cyclists by pretending to ignore bike lane striping; if a bicyclist is riding in the space demarcated by a bike lane; THAT BICYCLIST IS RIDING IN THE BIKE LANE.

    sometimes, depending on traffic and road conditions, it IS expedient for a bicyclist to be positioned in the bike lane.

    Vehicular cyclists can ride, vehicularily, in the bike lane.

    you are agreeing by your dodge.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    john, john.

    weather you insist in dodging the reality of vehicular cyclists by pretending to ignore bike lane striping; if a bicyclist is riding in the space demarcated by a bike lane; THAT BICYCLIST IS RIDING IN THE BIKE LANE.

    sometimes, depending on traffic and road conditions, it IS expedient for a bicyclist to be positioned in the bike lane.

    Vehicular cyclists can ride, vehicularily, in the bike lane.

    you are agreeing by your dodge.
    The twisting and turnings of your warped mind absolutely puzzle me. I don't understand what point you are making, though I have some clue as to the point that you think you are making. However, the dominant information transmitted by your statements is that your mind works in very peculiar ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    I have seen bicycle messengers in operation, and I have seen films of them in operation. The levels of skill that they exhibit, and of risk they run, in their unlawful methods of operation, are far beyond that of the typical CTC member, or of a typical member of an American cycling club. I am considered to have very good bike handling skills, and the films I have seen taken from the handlebars of a messenger's bike, scare me to death. None of my associates would operate in that manner.
    The messenger videos out there are almost all of the informal yet occasionally intense races (popularly known as 'alleycats'), which tend to involve various levels of intoxication and the type of risk-taking that does not often occur during business hours. The only video I've seen of actual messenger work was created by a co-worker of mine, and even his video contains race footage and general fooling around with riders who know they're being filmed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1J9U...%5Flloc%2Ehtml The presence of a helmet cam has a profound effect. Video of nothing but regular messenger activity would be pretty boring I imagine. Veteran messengers are among the most conservative riders out there. While they run lights and break various laws they do it in a very conservative fashion, for the most part.

    Robert

  20. #45
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    dodger, john, dodger.

    vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily.

    agree?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    dodger, john, dodger.

    vehicular cyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily.

    agree?
    I fail to understand why you consider this to be dodging. There never has been any issue of this kind.

  22. #47
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    do you agree? vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. yes or no?

    since bicyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily, then a lot of your prattle about bike infrastructure is meaningless.

    vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. vehicular cyclists can advocate for bike infrastructure like bike lanes on high speed arterials.

    vehicular bicyclists can keep to the side of a wide lane, can ride in a bike lane vehicularily, can ride on well accomodated shoulders of high speed roads.

    since these are possible, then the anti-facilities prattle is meaningless, john.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  23. #48
    BF's Level 12 Wizard SingingSabre's Avatar
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    Vile Council
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bklyn
    Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    do you agree? vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. yes or no?

    since bicyclists can ride in bike lanes, vehicularily, then a lot of your prattle about bike infrastructure is meaningless.

    vehicular bicyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily. vehicular cyclists can advocate for bike infrastructure like bike lanes on high speed arterials.

    vehicular bicyclists can keep to the side of a wide lane, can ride in a bike lane vehicularily, can ride on well accomodated shoulders of high speed roads.

    since these are possible, then the anti-facilities prattle is meaningless, john.
    Your position, then, is that since a bike-lane stripe does not influence my cycling, my opposition to such stripes is either meaningless or without right. That is an interesting claim, indeed. Shall we turn it around, on the similar assumption that you cycle in the vehicular manner (correct me if I am wrong). Since the bike-lane stripe does not affect your cycling, then you have no right to advocate bike-lane stripes.

    I've given you two choices, bekologist. You may choose to argue that you have the right to advocate bike-lane stripes because they do influence your cycling. If that's your choice, then explain the changes and the reasons for them. You may choose, instead, to argue that your right to advocate bike-lane stripes comes from some other reason. If that's your choice, then please inform us of what that reason is and why it gives you the right.

  25. #50
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Vociferous Conmen
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

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