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  1. #1
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    highway, bike lane, buffer- where does a vehicular cyclist ride?

    here's a photo from a 70 miler out on the Kitsap Peninsula on Sunday.

    Highway speed road (state highway, i think), signed bike route. edge of road buffer, bike lane. Road and bike lane and buffer were not significantly different in degrees of debris.

    Where does a vehicular cyclist ride? Where would YOU ride this road?

    Is there some compelling reason to avoid this bike lane - or even riding the buffer like the red jerseyed cyclists - EXCEPT paranoia about inadverdant drift? (as an aside to noisebeam, this shows bike lane stripes NOT ending 200 feet before intersections- theres plenty of minor intersections that a bike lane doesn't have to end like noisebeam's unrealistic desire of 200 feet before all intersections.)


    Would you prefer a narrow laned highway speed road with no shoulder, or would you prefer riding on this type of well accomodated state highway route?

    Does a vehicular cyclist choose the bike lane in this scenario? would john f. be riding in the bike lane? is it possible to be riding 'vehicularily' in the bike lane on this road?
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    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-05-07 at 08:02 AM.
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  2. #2
    ROM 6:23 flipped4bikes's Avatar
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    Hmmm, duh, the well accomodated state highway route with BL?
    Every time we let a vehicle pass there is a little bit of compromise. But compromise allows the city to function and allows cyclists to function in the city. The trick is not to eliminate compromise but to learn how to work safely within it.

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  3. #3
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Nice. Too bad this doesn't exist everywhere.

    About a year ago I went before a group of north county supervisors in an effort to get a wide road built as part of a new county loop. The goal of the project was to tie some county roads together to make a complete off freeway back country loop, so that in case of fire or other road closure, one could take an alternate route. I went before that board and asked that the road be made wide enough to share with cyclists... who readily rode the other connecting roads which were narrow. The current situation is such that a cyclist must take the lane.

    I presented the argument that a wider road would allow it to be shared by cyclists vice the current situation where cyclists must take the lane and motorists might find themselves delayed. There was no mention of bike lanes... just a slightly wider road was all that was asked for.

    The response was quite negative.

    Fortunatly, the request went all the way to the county seat where making the road wider "was taken under advisement."

    Sometimes getting just a few extra feet of roadway can be a real battle.

    The contrast between Oregon and California for instance is quite eye opening... with OR having nice wide shoulders well marked and with huge signs along 101... and just over the imaginary "dashed line" to the south into CA, the shoulder dissapears and the signs become irregular, and quite small.

  4. #4
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    I would ride in the bike lane. I like to keep those motorists on their toes rather than cringe over to the far right.

    We have a similar set-up on US 101 from the Ventura County Line to La Conchita. The US 101 is not a pretty country road like that. It's 65 mph highway that becomes freeway before and after the bike lane part. Many people do opt to ride with the bike lane separating them from the traffic. But I ride in the bike lane there as well.
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  5. #5
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    this bike lane is pretty non-contraversial, eh?

    Vehicular cyclists can ride in a bike lane, vehicularily.

    vehicular cyclists can advocate for bike lanes.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-06-07 at 08:11 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  6. #6
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    Those look like some pretty skinny tired bikes. If I was on my fun bike with $40 a piece tires, I'd be out in the traffic lane avoiding the debris in the bike lane/buffer for as long as possible. Sightlines look good so I could even move over before faster traffic had to slow if I was so inclined.The right side cyclist in the third picture sure could use some better sightlines to that hidden driveway. My guess is that whoever lives there pulls at least into the buffer zone to make a turn and I doubt they are checking for a high speed road cyclist first.

  7. #7
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    The right side cyclist in the third picture sure could use some better sightlines to that hidden driveway.
    Do you mean the part of the driveway that is not in the picture is hidden from viewing the road?
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  8. #8
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Does everyone see the potential conflict in the 3rd picture between the front cyclist and the oncoming minivan? It's the first thing I noticed. Anyone else?

    They are both approaching a driveway to the cyclist's right. If the van driver is turning left in that driveway, he needs to yield to the cyclist. But in order to yield to him, he needs to see and notice him. Will the van driver see and notice the cyclist? Where is the van driver most likely paying the most attention looking for potential conflicts? The traffic lane, bike lane or buffer? Is he more or less likely to see and notice the cyclist if the cyclist is in the buffer, bike lane, or traffic lane?

    I would be in the traffic lane except when faster same direction traffic is present or approaching, in which case I would temporarily move into the bike lane, but only after passing the place where a right turn can be made, or sooner but only if I can determine that same dir traffic is definitely moving too fast to turn right into that place.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Do you mean the part of the driveway that is not in the picture is hidden from viewing the road?
    I'm calling it a hidden driveway based on the driveways that I've seen that have "hidden driveway" signage. You would not be able to see someone approaching the roadway at a reasonable speed with the intention to stop in the buffer zone no matter where you were. The sightlines are going to better the further you are from the driveway though. Because of the trees, a driver attempting to turn left or right would most likely to have to pull out past the edge marking the end of their driveway and the start of the shoulder to get a good view of traffic. I would not want to be riding in that space where someone would not be expecting traffic.

  10. #10
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Does everyone see the potential conflict in the 3rd picture between the front cyclist and the oncoming minivan? It's the first thing I noticed. Anyone else?

    They are both approaching a driveway to the cyclist's right. If the van driver is turning left in that driveway, he needs to yield to the cyclist. But in order to yield to him, he needs to see and notice him. Will the van driver see and notice the cyclist? Where is the van driver most likely paying the most attention looking for potential conflicts? The traffic lane, bike lane or buffer? Is he more or less likely to see and notice the cyclist if the cyclist is in the buffer, bike lane, or traffic lane?
    Uhhh, I'm pretty sure that the lead cyclist is turning right. Thats why they are in the far right 'lane' instead of the bike lane.
    Even so I'd not be so far right as the mini van driver may try and 'share the turn' at the same time and I also find I get a better line if I don't start my turn so close to the right edge.

    edit: I just noted that the same cyclist is in far right shoulder in the other pics, maybe they are not turning after all.

    Al
    Last edited by noisebeam; 06-06-07 at 12:34 PM.

  11. #11
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    (as an aside to noisebeam, this shows bike lane stripes NOT ending 200 feet before intersections- theres plenty of minor intersections that a bike lane doesn't have to end like noisebeam's unrealistic desire of 200 feet before all intersections.)
    Hey if your going to request a response from me either do it in a thread I am already active in, or otherwise give me notice. I can't monitor all threads, just now was the first I checked this out out.

    Yeah, I still think the stripe should end before these driveways and side streets. Why not? On a road like this drivers are going to continue their left biased line for that 200' when the stripe ends and they are not going to suddenly forget the message the BL supposedly communicates that cyclists may be on road.

    The ending stripe also serves as heads up to cyclists that there is an intersection and a reminder to check rear for turning vehicles.

    Al

  12. #12
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Because of the trees, a driver attempting to turn left or right would most likely to have to pull out past the edge marking the end of their driveway and the start of the shoulder to get a good view of traffic. I would not want to be riding in that space where someone would not be expecting traffic.
    Ah, I thought you were talking about the driveway in the foreground, not the background.

    Yes in general, one would probably like to ride farther from the curb to improve sightlines.

    Of course, you and I do not know what the actual sightlines are for that bicyclist. Perhaps the cyclist has good lines and has easily seen that there are no cars approaching the intersection.
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  13. #13
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Yes in general, one would probably like to ride farther from the curb to improve sightlines.

    Of course, you and I do not know what the actual sightlines are for that bicyclist. Perhaps the cyclist has good lines and has easily seen that there are no cars approaching the intersection.
    What about the sightlines of a driver pulling out of driveway?
    Al

  14. #14
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Oh come on, nobody ever looks when they are backing up. That's for wimps.
    ~Diane
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    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  15. #15
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Uhhh, I'm pretty sure that the lead cyclist is turning right. Thats why they are in the far right 'lane' instead of the bike lane.
    Even so I'd not be so far right as the mini van driver may try and 'share the turn' at the same time and I also find I get a better line if I don't start my turn so close to the right edge.

    edit: I just noted that the same cyclist is in far right shoulder in the other pics, maybe they are not turning after all.

    Al
    I don't think they're turning right, but I find it very interesting and revealing that you initially assumed they probably are. The point is, based on their positioning, it's a reasonable assumption to make, and is made by motorists all the time regarding cyclists who are positioned like these cyclists are, all too often resulting in left and right hooks and crosses. But most cyclists, like Bek, are apparently oblivious to how their lane positioning is a factor of miscommunication in these incidents.

    Here is an example of what I'm talking about from this morning:

    "The woman [driver] said she saw [the cyclist], but she didn't take a second look to see where he was before she went to make the right hand turn."

    Hit by a car -- again

  16. #16
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I don't think they're turning right, but I find it very interesting and revealing that you initially assumed they probably are.
    It was a quick glance, when I looked at the pics again it was clear they likely were not.

    Also it is a static picture, from me in a drivers seat I probably would have seen a bit more of the situation unfold and not made such a wrong assumption.

    Al

  17. #17
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    It was a quick glance, when I looked at the pics again it was clear they likely were not.

    Also it is a static picture, from me in a drivers seat I probably would have seen a bit more of the situation unfold and not made such a wrong assumption.

    Al
    Maybe you wouldn't, but scads of motorists who have no clue about cyclist behavior likely would.

  18. #18
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    What about the sightlines of a driver pulling out of driveway?
    If the cyclist can see there is no driver, then it is only a zen riddle.

    If the cyclist can not see, and there may be a driver, then the cyclist should try to optimize sightlines.
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  19. #19
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    If the cyclist can see there is no driver, then it is only a zen riddle.

    If the cyclist can not see, and there may be a driver, then the cyclist should try to optimize sightlines.
    For example the cyclist may very well see a vehicle pulling out of driveway, but the driver is behind that white sign and can not see cyclist.
    Al

  20. #20
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Oh come on, nobody ever looks when they are backing up. That's for wimps.
    Who is backing up, context?
    Al

  21. #21
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    For example the cyclist may very well see a vehicle pulling out of driveway, but the driver is behind that white sign and can not see cyclist.
    Al
    Did I overlook that in my original post, when I said

    "Of course, you and I do not know what the actual sightlines are for that bicyclist. Perhaps the cyclist has good lines and has easily seen that there are no cars approaching the intersection."
    ?
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  22. #22
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Did I overlook that in my original post, when I said

    ?
    No problem, just perhaps my communication vs. what I am thinking.

    I see the situation often that a driver pulls up from side street or driveway very fast, slows, perhaps does not stop, driver gives only a cursory look down road sees no car coming and continues.

    That can happen fast. Nothing can be done to ensure cyclist is seen, let alone registered, but the best is to ensure both the sightlines of motorist and cyclist are maxmimized and neither driver should assume that because there is no vehicle in sight where or when they look (or can see) that one will not suddenly appear in the next brief moments.

    Al

  23. #23
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    you people are hilarious.


    Quote Originally Posted by H.Head
    But most cyclists, like Bek, are apparently oblivious to how their lane positioning is a factor of miscommunication in these incidents.
    some cyclists, like head, are apparantly overstating how a rider in this type of bike lane would contribute ANY KIND of miscommunication at all.

    additionally, a HH patented powerweave in front of traffic to 'maximize conspicuity' would likely be a LARGER factor in miscommunication between overtaking/oncoming drivers.

    do you seriously consider this type of lane not a valid bike lane for use by a vehicular cyclist, head? you're seriously misinformed and paranoid about riding your bicycle.
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  24. #24
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    You see the second photo ... the one with the blue car?

    I'd be in the space between the blue car and the white line.

  25. #25
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    you people are hilarious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    But most cyclists, like Bek, are apparently oblivious to how their lane positioning is a factor of miscommunication in these incidents.
    some cyclists, like head, are apparantly overstating how a rider in this type of bike lane would contribute ANY KIND of miscommunication at all.
    Q.E.D.

    additionally, a HH patented powerweave in front of traffic to 'maximize conspicuity' would likely be a LARGER factor in miscommunication between overtaking/oncoming drivers.
    How would operating in a traffic lane be miscommunication? What exactly would be miscommunicated?

    do you seriously consider this type of lane not a valid bike lane for use by a vehicular cyclist, head? you're seriously misinformed and paranoid about riding your bicycle.
    At all junctions and their approaches, moving out of a bike lane should always be given serious consideration.

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