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  1. #1
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    VC is anything goes - as long as it's consistent with the ROTR

    What some people seem to have a hard time understanding is that vehicular cycling is not a strict set of precise behavior. In fact, one might define VC as "anything goes" - as long as the behavior is consistent with the vehicular rules of the road.

    The rules do not define what to do as much as they proscribe the limits of what can be done. Within those boundaries, whether its queueing up in line or moving ahead by splitting lanes, riding in the margin or choosing a more assertive/conspicuous centerish lane position, etc., anything goes.

  2. #2
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    So VC includes riding in bike lanes sometimes?

  3. #3
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    So VC includes riding in bike lanes sometimes?
    just for you guys, but not for the average joe or jane...


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    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    You're joking right? If that's the case, then why is there a subforum to discuss "anything goes"? That seems pretty stupid if you ask me (oh, don't worry, I know you didn't). Is this so you can now change the rules whenever you like yet avoid being called out on it?

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
    You're joking right? If that's the case, then why is there a subforum to discuss "anything goes"? That seems pretty stupid if you ask me (oh, don't worry, I know you didn't). Is this so you can now change the rules whenever you like yet avoid being called out on it?
    What part of as long as it's consistent with the ROTR do you not understand?

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    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    What part of as long as it's consistent with the ROTR do you not understand?

    I understand that you are making this crap up as you go - it just gets sillier every day
    Which begs the question, why this subforum if that's all you say there is to it now?

  7. #7
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Anything goes in Chess, as long as it follows the rules of Chess.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  8. #8
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Anything goes in Chess, as long as it follows the rules of Chess.
    Exactly.

    And the VC rules are no more confining than are the rules of chess.

  9. #9
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    unless it's specifically prohibited, it's generally legal to ride on the sidewalk; therefore riding on the sidewalk is consistent with the rules of the road.

  10. #10
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by natelutkjohn
    I understand that you are making this crap up as you go - it just gets sillier every day
    Which begs the question, why this subforum if that's all you say there is to it now?
    Making this up as I go? Now? I've never said anything different.

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    unless it's specifically prohibited, it's generally legal to ride on the sidewalk; therefore riding on the sidewalk is consistent with the rules of the road.
    From the OP: as long as the behavior is consistent with the vehicular rules of the road.

    Unless specified otherwise, ROTR usually refers to the vehicular, not pedestrian, rules of the road. And so it does in the title of this thread.

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    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    so VC is against riding on sidewalks even though it is legal to do so?
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  13. #13
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    so VC is against riding on sidewalks even though it is legal to do so?
    NO!

    Riding on sidewalks is not VC, but VC is not against riding on sidewalk.

    Riding on MUPs or mountain biking single-track trails is not VC either, but VC is not against it.

    VC is about how you ride when you're on a roadway (and getting on and off the roadway), period.

  14. #14
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    then how come over the past year or so I've been here I got a totally different impression of it? am I the only one? hands? could it be you guys are not explaining it well and getting too caught up in side issues?
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

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    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Is it legal for a motorcycle to pass a car on the right in the gap between the car and the gutter to take a right turn if he fits?

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    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Exactly.

    And the VC rules are no more confining than are the rules of chess.
    When that car is bearing down on you, it's not confining at all to only be limited to moving your horsey in an L pattern.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  17. #17
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    For your help there HH, I highlighted in bold all the points from your Wiki article that should be removed as they are not requirements of VC if all VC means is that you follow rules of the road.

    You don't have to thank me - I would never ask you to stoop to that

    A vehicular cyclist is a cyclist who generally travels within the roadway in accordance with the basic vehicular rules of the road that are shared by all drivers, and the most effective cycling practices. Primarily, this means:

    * Traveling on the same side of the road as other traffic traveling in the same direction.
    * Staying outside of the door zone; when passing a motor vehicle that is parked parallel to the road, no closer than the length of the door.
    * Respecting traffic controls such as yield signs, stop signs and traffic lights.
    * Between intersections and other junctions, choosing the appropriate lane or lateral position according to those rules of the road that are shared by all drivers
    * While preparing to turn or turning, choosing the appropriate lane or lateral position according to destination positioning.right.
    * Ignoring designated bicycle lane stripes when choosing where to travel on the pavement.
    * Changing lanes or lateral (left/right) position in response to, and in anticipation of, factors such as changing traffic conditions.
    * Using the full lane unless overtaking traffic is likely to be delayed and the marked traffic lane is wide enough to share.
    * When making a turn toward the inside of a road when multiple traffic lanes are marked, merging into the traffic in each lane while using negotiation with other drivers as required.
    * Generally feeling and acting like a vehicle driver, albeit the driver of a narrow and relatively low-powered vehicle.

  18. #18
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Indeed, there might be a problem that at least I have. Whether other VC advocates have it too, you can judge for yourself. That is using VC to mean simply, "riding in accordance to the vehicular rules of the road", or, that plus adopting certain best practices (like staying out of door zones).

    I know I personally conflate the two definitions, often without realizing it, and probably cause a lot of confusion, as exemplified by this thread. Sorry about that.

    Edit: a third view is that the ROTR that VC is based on includes common sense defensive driving principles such as "stay out of door zones".

  19. #19
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    So which is it?

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Like many words and terms in the English language, VC may have more than one definition.

  21. #21
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!

    (scream)
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  22. #22
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    then how come over the past year or so I've been here I got a totally different impression of it? am I the only one? hands?
    Because there is a huge difference between HHs definition of VC here, and his definition of VC elsewhere, and it changes.

    HHs power weave, for example, is no more VC then staying in the bike lane. Defaulting to a centerish position absent FSDT, also not required by VC, according to him here. And yet, in his VC definitions thread, he brings up his default center idea as an important concept for vehicular cyclists.
    Quote Originally Posted by HH
    In particular, in the absence of FSDT there is no reason for a vehicular cyclist to ride in the road margin
    Note that by road margin he meant bike lanes, shoulders, etc.

    Passing stop or slowed traffic on the right is something HH does. It used to be against VC, according to HHs own Wikipedia article. Now it is VC. But only if you have the right attitude while you do it.

    This is where it gets interesting.

    His "as long as it is consistent with the rules of the road" speal. Because the points of "consistent" and "rules of the road" are rather fluid ideas. We all know that HH has a loose concept of consistent.

    For example, HH once referred me to a primer on the VC rules of the road

    Also, some of the core ideas in Effective Cycling, go beyond the rules of the road

    Quote Originally Posted by Effective Cycling
    cyclists must think for and control the overtaking driver to some extent, even though this is not in the rules of the road.
    So here, while Helmet Head says that you are VC so long as you behave consistently with the ROTR, Forester says that to be VC you must go beyond that....

    ----

    What we really have is Helmet Head defined concepts, clarified below:

    VC is everybody following the rotr
    Advanced VC is everybody following Helmet Head's extra-VC philosophy, which includes the attitude, the default center weave, the gap negotiating.

    ----

    So when HH is criticizing people, it's usually for them not following or agreeing with his "Advanced VC" ideas. It's just confusing because he blurs the line between VC and "advanced VC" so often.
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  23. #23
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm confused about my own definition
    Like many words and terms in the English language, VC may have more than one definition.
    Ahhh, I get it now! Sort of like

    axes

    (n) I cut down the tree with two axes. (plural of axe/ax)
    (n) The x and y axes intersect at (0,0). (plural of axis)

  24. #24
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    I feel like this is the third thread of the last week which has, or will soon, force an existential crisis upon the VC crowd. Like any dogma, when pinned to the board its boundaries diminsh and diminish and diminish until there's nothing left but the name, or expand and expand and expand until there's no meaning left to the name at all.

  25. #25
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laika
    I feel like this is the third thread of the last week which has, or will soon, force an existential crisis upon the VC crowd. Like any dogma, when pinned to the board its boundaries diminsh and diminish and diminish until there's nothing left but the name, or expand and expand and expand until there's no meaning left to the name at all.

    I sure as hell hope so

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