Act as drivers of vehicles? -- which vehicles?
#26
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by John Forester
Most of this discussion has been pointless. We are discussing behavior in roadway traffic, the area in which traffic law reigns. Traffic law explicitly divides the roadway users into pedestrians and drivers of vehicles. The kinds of vehicles that it considers are those lawful for use on the highway, not any other kind of vehicle.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Note JF mentions traffic law...not the mythical 'rules of the road for drivers of vehicles'.
#28
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by John Forester
What's bothering you, chipcom? Traffic law classifies those to whom it is applicable as drivers of vehicles and pedestrians. Cyclists are drivers of vehicles by law. The rules of the road for drivers of vehicles are, specifically, those traffic laws that traffic law applies to drivers of vehicles. That name is the chapter heading for many vehicle codes. However, though state codes differ in various ways, their specific rules of the road for drivers of vehicles all have much in common. That enables people to drive between states, and between many nations for that matter, without having to learn new operating rules and techniques. The principles of which the specific laws are the individual embodiments all have much in common because vehicles and drivers have very similar characteristics across the world. Therefore, when I use the phrase "rules of the road for drivers of vehicles" in a general sense, I am referring to the more general principles of those rules.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Yeah we know the drill...only obey the law if is convenient for you, but the mythical 'rules of the road' (that change by the minute, depending upon what point some zealots wish to make) shalt not be trifled with upon pain of banishment from the VC realm!
#30
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
can I do rolling stops at stopsigns and still be following the rules of the road?
- that's one grey area Chipcom's referring to that gets bandied about in this forum by rambling, pontificating, foresterite VC'ists.
- that's one grey area Chipcom's referring to that gets bandied about in this forum by rambling, pontificating, foresterite VC'ists.
#31
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by John Forester
Originally Posted by chipcom
Originally Posted by John Forester
What's bothering you, chipcom? Traffic law classifies those to whom it is applicable as drivers of vehicles and pedestrians. Cyclists are drivers of vehicles by law. The rules of the road for drivers of vehicles are, specifically, those traffic laws that traffic law applies to drivers of vehicles. That name is the chapter heading for many vehicle codes. However, though state codes differ in various ways, their specific rules of the road for drivers of vehicles all have much in common. That enables people to drive between states, and between many nations for that matter, without having to learn new operating rules and techniques. The principles of which the specific laws are the individual embodiments all have much in common because vehicles and drivers have very similar characteristics across the world. Therefore, when I use the phrase "rules of the road for drivers of vehicles" in a general sense, I am referring to the more general principles of those rules.
#32
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
It's an invalid point. The local laws trump the mythical rules of road. The only exception is if following the law would compromise your safety - compromises to your convenience are not a valid reason to disobey the law. It's amazing how many excuses those who think of themselves as 'professional' cyclists will come up with to disobey the law.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#33
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
It's an invalid point.
In the context of safe, effective and practically legal driving and cycling (i.e., the real world), it's a very valid point.
The local laws trump the mythical rules of road.
The only exception is if following the law would compromise your safety - compromises to your convenience are not a valid reason to disobey the law.
It's amazing how many excuses those who think of themselves as 'professional' cyclists will come up with to disobey the law.
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,071
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
It's an invalid point. The local laws trump the mythical rules of road. The only exception is if following the law would compromise your safety - compromises to your convenience are not a valid reason to disobey the law. It's amazing how many excuses those who think of themselves as 'professional' cyclists will come up with to disobey the law.
#35
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
rolling thru stopsigns when the right of way is clear? following the "Rules of the road"? and the letter of the law?
#36
Senior Member
Originally Posted by zeytoun
I don't think that forcing the idea of the bicycle as a vehicle is the best way to accomplish chaging the idea of them not being as legitimate as cars.
Or do these other modes of transportation not have the legitamacy that cyclists do on the road?
Whether skateboarders or roller bladers or runners for that matter shoulder be classified as vehicles is a difficult question. I think the biggest issue with skateboarders and roller bladers is their inability to deal with commonly encountered road imperfections, like small potholes, expansion joints, and metal grating. Another issue is braking power, for instance if one had to stop at the bottom of a steep hill. (I may be wrong on this last point as I don't have much experience with either mode and am commenting based on that very limited exposure.) Where pavement is smooth and hills are non-existant, like South Beach, I've seen both modes act as vehicles just fine. With runners, I'm all for them treating themselves as vehicles when their speed dictates that it makes more sense to do so than acting as a ped. Bike lanes do a lot to illegitimatize runners on the roadway though (just read some threads from this forum about stiff arms and such).
#37
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951
With runners, I'm all for them treating themselves as vehicles when their speed dictates that it makes more sense to do so than acting as a ped. Bike lanes do a lot to illegitimatize runners on the roadway though (just read some threads from this forum about stiff arms and such).
If the speed of motor traffic is dramatically greater, should I then not ride in a vehicular manner if I am no where near the speed of traffic?
Or to put it another way... when my cycling speed approaches that of a ped, should I then leave the road?
At what speed may I be vehicular?
#38
Senior Member
Originally Posted by genec
Why does speed matter? If I am riding slow on a bike should I then not ride in a vehicular manner?
If the speed of motor traffic is dramatically greater, should I then not ride in a vehicular manner if I am no where near the speed of traffic?
Or to put it another way... when my cycling speed approaches that of a ped, should I then leave the road?
At what speed may I be vehicular?
If the speed of motor traffic is dramatically greater, should I then not ride in a vehicular manner if I am no where near the speed of traffic?
Or to put it another way... when my cycling speed approaches that of a ped, should I then leave the road?
At what speed may I be vehicular?
#39
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951
The difference between a runner and a cyclist is that a runner can quickly and easily attain the mobility of a slow moving ped whereas a cyclist cannot, even after dismounting (they still have a bike to move around with them). A runner who decides to move at ped speed for a bit can easily hop up onto the curb to get on the sidewalk midblock (even going in between parked vehicles) and easily hop back down whereas a cyclist cannot. A slow moving runner going downhill will not suddenly accelerate to very vehicular speed when going downhill.
Mass and speed being the primary differences between human powered vehicles and motor powered vehicles.
With reference to peds above, there is little difference between that fast moving ped and a slow moving cyclist.
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I know cyclists who have the runner-like mobility you describe. And I see a great many cyclists who never approach vehicle speeds no matter what the gradient. What are you suggesting exactly?
But the speed-of-traffic argument is an interesting point, particularly for those of us on roads with no margins where motorized traffic travels between 80 and 100 kph. It's easy to sing the praises of the VC method when I am out on my road bike on a windless summer day. In the winter, on the snow-tires, upwind, or uphill, much less so.
But the speed-of-traffic argument is an interesting point, particularly for those of us on roads with no margins where motorized traffic travels between 80 and 100 kph. It's easy to sing the praises of the VC method when I am out on my road bike on a windless summer day. In the winter, on the snow-tires, upwind, or uphill, much less so.
#41
Senior Member
I've included two pictures of one of my bikes. It has a heavy fibrerglass box/fairing on the front and an orange triangle on the back.
Which vehicle do I drive it like? Why, a Front-End Loader, of course.
Motorists behind are warned by the triangle that my bike is a slow-moving vehicle, and those in front can get their car opened like it's a sardine tin.
https://cmms.cat.com/cmms/servlet/cat...52&imageType=9
Here's a link to Caterpillar's web site. Keep your car clear of the bucket. That's how I drive my bike.
#42
Senior Member
Originally Posted by genec
But here you are focusing on the physical charateristics of the vehicle... yet you dismiss that when comparing bicycles to motor vehicles.
Mass and speed being the primary differences between human powered vehicles and motor powered vehicles.
With reference to peds above, there is little difference between that fast moving ped and a slow moving cyclist.
Mass and speed being the primary differences between human powered vehicles and motor powered vehicles.
With reference to peds above, there is little difference between that fast moving ped and a slow moving cyclist.
#43
Senior Member
Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
I know cyclists who have the runner-like mobility you describe. And I see a great many cyclists who never approach vehicle speeds no matter what the gradient. What are you suggesting exactly?
But the speed-of-traffic argument is an interesting point, particularly for those of us on roads with no margins where motorized traffic travels between 80 and 100 kph. It's easy to sing the praises of the VC method when I am out on my road bike on a windless summer day. In the winter, on the snow-tires, upwind, or uphill, much less so.
But the speed-of-traffic argument is an interesting point, particularly for those of us on roads with no margins where motorized traffic travels between 80 and 100 kph. It's easy to sing the praises of the VC method when I am out on my road bike on a windless summer day. In the winter, on the snow-tires, upwind, or uphill, much less so.
When I mentioned vehicular speed, I wasn't talking about moving at the speed of traffic. I was referring to a speed above pedestrian speed (2-4mph or so) at which even a human by himself begins to lose mobility. A cyclist moving at pedestrian speed never has the mobility of a pedestrian hence their classification as a vehicle.
What do you suggest doing on a narrow road with fast traffic while moving slowly if not act like a vehicle driver? Walk? Not use the road?
#44
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951
I'm focusing the fact that a runner moving at pedestrian speed, aka walking, is a lot more mobile than a cyclist. An average cyclist (like myself) moving at pedestrian speeds cannot do the same things a pedestrian can at those speeds, like moving sideways up a curb or stepping down off a sharp drop on the edge of the roadway without completely stopping. A walking pedestrian can. A runner doesn't have quite the same mobility either which is why I suggested they could/shoud be treated as a vehicle. Do you see the difference between focussing on speed alone and focussing on mobility at different speeds?
#45
Infamous Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by John Forester
Well, Chipcom, on what excuses and what laws are you basing this statement? Provide your real examples, so we can discuss them. Without such examples, your statement has no basis.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#46
Senior Member
Originally Posted by genec
The same thing applies to a cyclist... I can easily ride circles around a car, so my mobility is a quite a leap over their's, yet you do not see the difference between cyclists and motorists as you insist exists between cyclists and pedestrians... interesting bias.
#47
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951
I can drive circles around another car in a car too. It just takes more space than if I was on a bike. I see plenty of differences between motorists and cyclists and plenty between cyclists and pedestrians. It's much more difficult for a cyclist to operate as a pedestrian than it is for a cyclist to operate as a vehicle, even when they are going pedestrian speeds. Simply because a few ignorant motorists out there can get this through their thick skulls doesn't make it wrong.
You were contrasting mobility and speed, and using speed and differing mobility to illustrate why bikes and peds don't mix... but that same difference in speed and mobility exist between bikes and cars... yet you insist that they should mix... do you not find a bit of a dichotomy in that?
An even larger contrast exists when you consider that both the ped and cycist have in common the fact that they are human powered, whereas most other road using vehicles are powered by a fuel which results in the equvilent of several horses of power.
Again, the greater differences exist between motorists using cars and cyclists using bikes.
Your orginal comment regarding ped speed seems pretty lame at this point.
#48
Senior Member
Originally Posted by genec
You can't drive around another car within the same lane... nor can you take a car into a shop if you can't find parking. No, I am afraid the differences between a ped and cyclist are far fewer than the differences between a bike and a car.
Originally Posted by genec
You were contrasting mobility and speed, and using speed and differing mobility to illustrate why bikes and peds don't mix... but that same difference in speed and mobility exist between bikes and cars... yet you insist that they should mix... do you not find a bit of a dichotomy in that?
Originally Posted by genec
An even larger contrast exists when you consider that both the ped and cycist have in common the fact that they are human powered, whereas most other road using vehicles are powered by a fuel which results in the equvilent of several horses of power.
Originally Posted by genec
Again, the greater differences exist between motorists using cars and cyclists using bikes.
Originally Posted by genec
Your orginal comment regarding ped speed seems pretty lame at this point.
#49
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951
My original comment had to do with runners acting as vehicles while at running speed and acting as peds while at walking speed. What is so lame about that? Or are you talking about a different comment?
I am talking specifically about your comment that involves treating the exact same person in a different manner simply because of a speed difference...
You choose to make "speed" the governing factor.
Yet given the same discriminating difference for a cyclist, you chose not to treat the cyclist differently... why?
What magic does the cyclist have at 4MPH that the pedestrian does not?
#50
Senior Member
Originally Posted by genec
I am talking specifically about your comment that involves treating the exact same person in a different manner simply because of a speed difference...
You choose to make "speed" the governing factor.
Yet given the same discriminating difference for a cyclist, you chose not to treat the cyclist differently... why?
What magic does the cyclist have at 4MPH that the pedestrian does not?
You choose to make "speed" the governing factor.
Yet given the same discriminating difference for a cyclist, you chose not to treat the cyclist differently... why?
What magic does the cyclist have at 4MPH that the pedestrian does not?