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  1. #76
    JRA
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    The whole argument is just plain silly.
    Finally we agree. Your claim that there are no rules of the road on a MUP is just plain silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Certainly there are laws regarding operation on MUPs...
    No foolin'? You've changed your tune a little bit. Still trying to spin it, are we?

    You crack me up, Forester.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA
    Finally we agree. Your claim that there are no rules of the road on a MUP is just plain silly.

    No foolin'? You've changed your tune a little bit. Still trying to spin it, are we?

    You crack me up, Forester.
    What miniature minds you all have! And how pleased you are about that fact! How many of you have cycled along an MUP at a time and place where there was significant traffic in the same manner as you would ride on a normal arterial street? I've done it, and it was dangerous, as I was told by a whole committee of experts who accompanied me. It is a plain fact that traffic on MUPs does not operate according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Is there anyone here who can offer significant evidence of the converse?

  3. #78
    JRA
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    What miniature minds you all have!
    We bow to the infinite wisdom of The Great One and his merry band of followers.

    You crack me up.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  4. #79
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    When they have no argument, they resort to insults and ad hominem attacks.

  5. #80
    eternalvoyage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    When they have no argument, they resort to insults and ad hominem attacks.
    !

    JF and (to a lesser extent) HH probably resort to this sort of thing more often, certainly quite often, and usually first.

    Why criticize others for the same offenses you are committing?, especially when yours are worse, more frequent, and often on a rather low level? It's just name-calling.

    And who came up with "miniature minded" and "miniature minds"? Come on. We can do better than this. And words like "idiocy" and the rest?

    Not very rational. Not very logical. Not very mature.

    They reflect less well on their original perpetrators than anyone else.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    The context is "creating rules" based on speed. If it is the case that I can treat the exact same pedestrian differently based on whether they are running or walking, then why can't motorists treat cyclists differently based on whether the cyclist is moving at the posted speed limit or not?
    Let's get back on topic here about what I actually said. My point was that a runner could successfully act like a vehicle driver (just like a slowly moving cyclist would). I also stated that it's easier for a runner who decides to move slower to change into pedestrian mode than it is for a cyclist. Nowhere did I say anything about motorists treating the runner any differently if the runner decide to stay in vehicle mode while going slower. You created that part of your argument. You also have now thrown in this "moving at the posted speed limit" which is an entirely different subject.

  7. #82
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    a runner can sucessfully act like a vehicle driver?

    the VCist spin knows noooo bounds.....
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #83
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    a runner can sucessfully act like a vehicle driver?

    the VCist spin knows noooo bounds.....
    Of course. It would look a bit silly, perhaps, but in theory could surely be done.

  9. #84
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    yes, you're big on theoretical.

    A guy in an armchair that rides mostly with the peloton on the weekends could pretend he's quite the transportational bicyclist too.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #85
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    Originally Posted by John Forester
    What miniature minds you all have! And how pleased you are about that fact! How many of you have cycled along an MUP at a time and place where there was significant traffic in the same manner as you would ride on a normal arterial street? I've done it, and it was dangerous, as I was told by a whole committee of experts who accompanied me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    Then they, like you, are exhibiting MUP phobia insecurity syndrome.

    In other words, you're a bunch of *******.

    Yes, I've been on MUPs with lots of different classes of users and I've never been terrified as you describe yourself being.

    Your awkward use of "rules of the road" is very Headesque™, which is not surprising in the least.



    We agree! Forester's "miniature minds" attack (weak as it was) is just the latest ina long list of ad hominem attacks against the rational folks that don't buy into his Motorcar Phobia.
    That answer is just one more example of miniature minds who fail to understand the point. I asked a specific question, and if a positive answer had been offered I would have been surprised. Instead, all you can think of is to feel insulted because you think I was calling you frightened. The point that I was making is that riding on the typical MUP with significant traffic in the same way that one would ride on the roadway, at equivalent speed and with the expectation that the other traffic would obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, is very dangerous. How many of you understand that? I thought that almost all would, but I was evidently mistaken.

  11. #86
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    When they have no argument, they resort to insults and ad hominem attacks.
    I believe it was JF that threw out the first
    What miniature minds you all have!
    , while the others simply resorted to using the same "silly" that was posted earlier by Mr Forester.

    Actually I think Mr. Forester threw out the first
    Absolute idiocy
    I think your "they resort to insults" is just a bit off.

  12. #87
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    Let's get back on topic here about what I actually said. My point was that a runner could successfully act like a vehicle driver (just like a slowly moving cyclist would). I also stated that it's easier for a runner who decides to move slower to change into pedestrian mode than it is for a cyclist. Nowhere did I say anything about motorists treating the runner any differently if the runner decide to stay in vehicle mode while going slower. You created that part of your argument. You also have now thrown in this "moving at the posted speed limit" which is an entirely different subject.
    Your bottom line point is you chose to treat the pedestrian differently due only to speed...

    And yet you don't want the same treatment from motorists.

  13. #88
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    Your bottom line point is you chose to treat the pedestrian differently due only to speed...

    And yet you don't want the same treatment from motorists.
    Pedestrians and drivers of vehicles have far more differences than speed.

    Pedestrians can pivot in place, translate laterally without moving foward, and overcome significant surface discontinuities. Drivers of vehicles (including my road bike hauling my son in a trailer) cannot do these things.

    A runner could, in theory, intentionally limit his use of these capabilities in order to emulate a slow moving driver, and could theoretically travel just as safely and predictably as a slow moving bicycle driver on any given facility (assuming good lighting).

    However, most pedestrians, including some runners, do not limit their use of these superior maneuvering capabilities, especially when on pedestrian facilities such as sidewalks and MUPs, where they are less aware of the importance of acting predictably. In particular, they tend to move laterally in a sudden, unpredictable manner without looking and yielding. Their maneuverability predisposes them to operate in a manner that conflicts with vehicular rules. This can result in less safe interactions between drivers and most pedestrians on multi-use facilities than between drivers and other drivers, all acting as drivers, on vehicular facilities.
    Last edited by sggoodri; 06-12-07 at 04:07 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    Your bottom line point is you chose to treat the pedestrian differently due only to speed...

    And yet you don't want the same treatment from motorists.
    Work with me here, Gene. Just as a cyclist can choose to treat himself like a pedestrian or a vehicle, I'm saying that a runner could choose to treat himself in the same manner, like a pedestrian or a vehicle (in this case, a slow moving cyclist). The difference that I have cited between the runner and the cyclist, is that as the runner approaches pedestrian speed, it is easer for him to act like a pedestrian than it is for the cyclist to do the same.

    Is that clearer?

    I guess I should add, so that I don't confuse you any further, if I saw a runner treating himself as a vehicle, I would treat him as a vehicle and if I a saw a runner treating himself like a pedestrian, I'd treat him as such. The same would apply for cyclists.

  15. #90
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    Work with me here, Gene. Just as a cyclist can choose to treat himself like a pedestrian or a vehicle, I'm saying that a runner could choose to treat himself in the same manner, like a pedestrian or a vehicle (in this case, a slow moving cyclist). The difference that I have cited between the runner and the cyclist, is that as the runner approaches pedestrian speed, it is easer for him to act like a pedestrian than it is for the cyclist to do the same.

    Is that clearer?

    I guess I should add, so that I don't confuse you any further, if I saw a runner treating himself as a vehicle, I would treat him as a vehicle and if I a saw a runner treating himself like a pedestrian, I'd treat him as such. The same would apply for cyclists.
    I use a Xootr push scooter to get around at lunch. The deli is less than a mile away, and the shopping center is maybe a bit over a mile, so a bike is overkill, but walking takes considerably longer. The scooter is perfect. That thing makes me something in between a ped and a cyclist. On downhill I'm faster than runners, but I can hold my own on the uphills too. I switch between ped and vehicular mode quite a bit, and am treated accordingly. I've never had anyone honk at me while riding my Xootr.




    Note that while push scooters riders are legally pedestrians, and, technically, have no rights as drivers as vehicles whatsoever, I am able to operate in accordance with the vehicular rules of the road using the push scooter. There is a big difference between following the law, and following the vehicular rules of the road. In fact, on the scooter, following the VROTR is quite probably illegal.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 06-12-07 at 09:58 PM.

  16. #91
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    why are trips of a mile or so "overkill" by bike? that's laughable, and pathetic.

    you are DEFINETLY NOT a transportational bicyclist, mr. head.


    where do you put all the groceries on the scooter? and how do you get them home from your office?

    Haven't you seen, bikes that have racks can have bags attached to the back. these are callied panniers, and they make shopping errands a breeze.

    you really are funny, H. Head. but you are NOT a transportational bicyclist.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #92
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    I use cycling clothes, including shoes, when I ride my bike. I don't like to bother with a lock, rack or panniers on my lightweight commuter. Remember, hills. I shower after I get to work.

    I use the scooter in my street clothes, and all I purchase is lunch, which I can easily carry in a bag hanging off the bars, if I don't eat it there and take it back to the office.

    If I need to carry stuff on my bike, I use jersey pockets. If that's not enough space, a backpack.

  18. #93
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    like I said, Helemt Head, you're definetly NOT a transportational bicyclist. a mile bike ride is - "overkill"?? you'd need bike clothes for a two mile (round trip) ride?


    do you own panniers? have you hauled stuff to work and home with them?

    you'll get with the bicycling lifestyle someday. maybe.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-13-07 at 06:32 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    like I said, Helemt Head, you're definetly NOT a transportational bicyclist. a mile bike ride is - "overkill"?? you'd need bike clothes for a two mile (round trip) ride?


    do you own panniers? have you hauled stuff to work and home with them?

    you'll get with the bicycling lifestyle someday. maybe.
    If I was wearing nice dress pants to work (or even decent jeans), I certainly would want to avoid going anywhere near my bike because who knows where the chain grease or other dirt (who actually washes their bike?) lurks. There's a reason why I ride to work in black shorts every day. It's also an annoyance to change shoes for a 5 minute ride when there's another method to get to the same place that may only take a minute or two longer, and even less time when you consider time saved by not having to lock up the bike. For both of these reasons, there are times I'd rather just walk to the grocery store that's about 0.75 miles away from home rather than ride, especially if I'm only picking up a few small things. The bike is overkill. It's a different story when I'm going 3 miles to Trader Joe's and picking up $100 worth of food though.

  20. #95
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    If I was wearing nice dress pants to work (or even decent jeans), I certainly would want to avoid going anywhere near my bike because who knows where the chain grease or other dirt (who actually washes their bike?) lurks. There's a reason why I ride to work in black shorts every day. It's also an annoyance to change shoes for a 5 minute ride when there's another method to get to the same place that may only take a minute or two longer, and even less time when you consider time saved by not having to lock up the bike. For both of these reasons, there are times I'd rather just walk to the grocery store that's about 0.75 miles away from home rather than ride, especially if I'm only picking up a few small things. The bike is overkill. It's a different story when I'm going 3 miles to Trader Joe's and picking up $100 worth of food though.
    Exactly... not to mention avoiding the helmet hassle (no, i don't wear a helmet when riding my scooter, and I suppose I could leave it in the office if using a bike just as well).

    I've thought about getting a beach cruiser with chain guards and fenders to keep at work for noontime short trip errands (i.e., getting lunch), but the scooter works exceptionally well for me.

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