The big flaw of VC
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The big flaw of VC
It seems to me that the big flaw with VC is that the VC-ists who promote it discount the real issue of motorist harassment and how real people feel about it. They offer in response to those who have experienced harassment, or who simply express concerns that they may experience it, at best pooh-poohing and at worst outright ridicule with phony diagnoses of mental illness, phobias, tauntings that they are superstitious, and insults that they have low IQs and reading comprehension problems.
It's a classic case of something actually well-made being sold by the engineers who made it and not the marketers who know how to sell something.
Can you guys not see that placing those with whom you disagree into your "enemies" camp, or discrediting their concerns, or tossing out only "facts" (such as they may be) without understanding the way people are moved emotionally -- and in fact, discrediting all emotion as weakness and stupidity -- is the real reason for your failure to gain market share?
You need to quit the insults, quit believing that "data" and statistics is the only meaningful measurement of value, and start figuring out a way to work vehicular cycling principles into the existing network of on-street cycling facilities. Otherwise you are doomed to failure. It's time for new packaging, new messaging, new ideas.
It's a classic case of something actually well-made being sold by the engineers who made it and not the marketers who know how to sell something.
Can you guys not see that placing those with whom you disagree into your "enemies" camp, or discrediting their concerns, or tossing out only "facts" (such as they may be) without understanding the way people are moved emotionally -- and in fact, discrediting all emotion as weakness and stupidity -- is the real reason for your failure to gain market share?
You need to quit the insults, quit believing that "data" and statistics is the only meaningful measurement of value, and start figuring out a way to work vehicular cycling principles into the existing network of on-street cycling facilities. Otherwise you are doomed to failure. It's time for new packaging, new messaging, new ideas.
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Given that motorist harassment is a real issue, how is it related to VC?
That is, does VC exacerbate or diminish the problem of motorist harassment, or does it have no effect?
In my experience, VC reduces, but does not eliminate, the incidence of motorist harassment a cyclist encounters. But VC - knowing inwardly that one has the same right to the road as any other driver - also seems to help a great deal in not being as intimidated when the inevitable encounters with harassing motorists occur. It helps you react quickly with a smile and a wave, for example.
I think it's also helpful to understand the likely motivations of the motorists: many are kind and good people who simply and genuinely believe that cyclists do not belong on the road. Many are probably not entirely aware of how much their desire for cyclists to not be in their way is a factor in this, but there it is.
That is, does VC exacerbate or diminish the problem of motorist harassment, or does it have no effect?
In my experience, VC reduces, but does not eliminate, the incidence of motorist harassment a cyclist encounters. But VC - knowing inwardly that one has the same right to the road as any other driver - also seems to help a great deal in not being as intimidated when the inevitable encounters with harassing motorists occur. It helps you react quickly with a smile and a wave, for example.
I think it's also helpful to understand the likely motivations of the motorists: many are kind and good people who simply and genuinely believe that cyclists do not belong on the road. Many are probably not entirely aware of how much their desire for cyclists to not be in their way is a factor in this, but there it is.
#3
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
You need to quit the insults, quit believing that "data" and statistics is the only meaningful measurement of value, and start figuring out a way to work vehicular cycling principles into the existing network of on-street cycling facilities. Otherwise you are doomed to failure. It's time for new packaging, new messaging, new ideas.
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Why is there an assumed correlation between harrassment and vehicular riding?
The only* way to fully eliminate harassment from other road users is to not have cyclists on or near any roads. But that is not the comprehensive opposite of vehicular cycling.
*yes there is the other option to fully reprogram every other road users brain
Al
The only* way to fully eliminate harassment from other road users is to not have cyclists on or near any roads. But that is not the comprehensive opposite of vehicular cycling.
*yes there is the other option to fully reprogram every other road users brain
Al
#5
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Why is there an assumed correlation between harrassment and vehicular riding?
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You don't think that if we eliminated harassment by VC advocates themselves toward those who fear motorist harassment that VC wouldn't have more success?
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
You don't think that if we eliminated harassment by VC advocates themselves toward those who fear motorist harassment that VC wouldn't have more success?
But, then, how do you works towards reducing smoking without harassing, and without appearing to harass, smokers?
How do you work towards eliminating slavery without harassing, and without appearing to harass, slave-owners?
How do you work towards spreading liberalism, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, conservatives?
How do you works towards spreading acceptance of evolution, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, creationists?
I think working towards VC acceptance is just as difficult/impossible to do without appearing to be harassing.
Within the context of U.S. cycling culture, any effort to bring about acceptance of VC is revolutionary and inherently confrontational.
VC challenges fundamental and often deeply held beliefs that must be dislodged before VC can be accepted.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Good question. I wonder if we eliminated harassment of smokers if we'd have more success with getting smokers to quit.
But, then, how do you works towards reducing smoking without harassing, and without appearing to harass, smokers?
How do you work towards eliminating slavery without harassing, and without appearing to harass, slave-owners?
How do you work towards spreading liberalism, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, conservatives?
How do you works towards spreading acceptance of evolution, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, creationists?
I think working towards VC acceptance is just as difficult/impossible to do without appearing to be harassing.
Within the context of U.S. cycling culture, any effort to bring about acceptance of VC is revolutionary and inherently confrontational.
VC challenges fundamental and often deeply held beliefs that must be dislodged before VC can be accepted.
But, then, how do you works towards reducing smoking without harassing, and without appearing to harass, smokers?
How do you work towards eliminating slavery without harassing, and without appearing to harass, slave-owners?
How do you work towards spreading liberalism, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, conservatives?
How do you works towards spreading acceptance of evolution, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, creationists?
I think working towards VC acceptance is just as difficult/impossible to do without appearing to be harassing.
Within the context of U.S. cycling culture, any effort to bring about acceptance of VC is revolutionary and inherently confrontational.
VC challenges fundamental and often deeply held beliefs that must be dislodged before VC can be accepted.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Good question. I wonder if we eliminated harassment of smokers if we'd have more success with getting smokers to quit.
But, then, how do you works towards reducing smoking without harassing, and without appearing to harass, smokers?
How do you work towards eliminating slavery without harassing, and without appearing to harass, slave-owners?
How do you work towards spreading liberalism, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, conservatives?
How do you works towards spreading acceptance of evolution, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, creationists?
I think working towards VC acceptance is just as difficult/impossible to do without appearing to be harassing.
Within the context of U.S. cycling culture, any effort to bring about acceptance of VC is revolutionary and inherently confrontational.
VC challenges fundamental and often deeply held beliefs that must be dislodged before VC can be accepted.
But, then, how do you works towards reducing smoking without harassing, and without appearing to harass, smokers?
How do you work towards eliminating slavery without harassing, and without appearing to harass, slave-owners?
How do you work towards spreading liberalism, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, conservatives?
How do you works towards spreading acceptance of evolution, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, creationists?
I think working towards VC acceptance is just as difficult/impossible to do without appearing to be harassing.
Within the context of U.S. cycling culture, any effort to bring about acceptance of VC is revolutionary and inherently confrontational.
VC challenges fundamental and often deeply held beliefs that must be dislodged before VC can be accepted.
Answer me this, who died and appointed you as caretaker of the human race, charged with harrassing people into adopting your commie beliefs?
The more you babble, the more you show your stripes.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Spoken like a true busy-body, elitist, commie.
Answer me this, who died and appointed you as caretaker of the human race, charged with harrassing people into adopting your commie beliefs?
The more you babble, the more you show your stripes.
Answer me this, who died and appointed you as caretaker of the human race, charged with harrassing people into adopting your commie beliefs?
The more you babble, the more you show your stripes.
I could have just as easily written (some of which represent my beliefs, some of which do not) the following:
How do you work towards spreading conservatism, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, liberals?
How do you work towards spreading Christiantiy, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, non-Christians?
How do you work towards spreading the use of designated drivers, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, those who choose to drive drunk?
How do you work towards accepting the war in Iraq, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, those who oppose the war?
How do you work towards eliminating abortion, without harassing, and without appearing to harass, those who choose to have abortions?
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How do you mind your own business? That is the difference between you and I, HH, I got over being a busy body, you haven't.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by chipcom
How do you mind your own business? That is the difference between you and I, HH, I got over being a busy body, you haven't.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The personal business of others is none of my business. But behavior that has cultural and social impact can be the business of any citizen who chooses to take it on. That's why we call it a democracy.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by chipcom
HH, we are a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy, which breeds oppression by the majority. Even if we were a democracy, you are not the majority and thus your attempts at social engineering and behavior modification are just the signs of a busy-body. Take care of your own self, the rest of us unwashed massed can fend for ourselves just fine, thank you.
You seem to not appreciate the difference between seeking change forcefully and seeking change peacefully through persuasion. There is nothing oppressive about the latter by definition, since free people are free to ignore all such efforts, including you.
P.S., a Constitutional Republic is representative democracy, but it's still a democracy.
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I have seen many vehicular cycling proponents constructively help those looking for advice, for teaching and suggesting ideas and skills to those looking for it.
Where I see the nastiness in discourse is only in the debates with those opposing VC and that nastiness goes both ways.
Al
Where I see the nastiness in discourse is only in the debates with those opposing VC and that nastiness goes both ways.
Al
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
I have seen many vehicular cycling proponents constructively help those looking for advice, for teaching and suggesting ideas and skills to those looking for it.
Where I see the nastiness in discourse is only in the debates with those opposing VC and that nastiness goes both ways.
Al
Where I see the nastiness in discourse is only in the debates with those opposing VC and that nastiness goes both ways.
Al
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Given that motorist harassment is a real issue, how is it related to VC?
That is, does VC exacerbate or diminish the problem of motorist harassment, or does it have no effect?
In my experience, VC reduces, but does not eliminate, the incidence of motorist harassment a cyclist encounters. But VC - knowing inwardly that one has the same right to the road as any other driver - also seems to help a great deal in not being as intimidated when the inevitable encounters with harassing motorists occur. It helps you react quickly with a smile and a wave, for example.
I think it's also helpful to understand the likely motivations of the motorists: many are kind and good people who simply and genuinely believe that cyclists do not belong on the road. Many are probably not entirely aware of how much their desire for cyclists to not be in their way is a factor in this, but there it is.
That is, does VC exacerbate or diminish the problem of motorist harassment, or does it have no effect?
In my experience, VC reduces, but does not eliminate, the incidence of motorist harassment a cyclist encounters. But VC - knowing inwardly that one has the same right to the road as any other driver - also seems to help a great deal in not being as intimidated when the inevitable encounters with harassing motorists occur. It helps you react quickly with a smile and a wave, for example.
I think it's also helpful to understand the likely motivations of the motorists: many are kind and good people who simply and genuinely believe that cyclists do not belong on the road. Many are probably not entirely aware of how much their desire for cyclists to not be in their way is a factor in this, but there it is.
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Many people get nasty when their sacred cows are gored.
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
True that. The best defense is to make sure that you have no sacred cows yourself...
It's hard, but I try not to hold any ideas above criticism.
But people are often trying to convince me that bike lanes and "concerns of motorist harassment" (see OP) should not be criticized.
I guess holding and defending sacred cows is instinctual.
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But people are often trying to convince me that bike lanes and "concerns of motorist harassment" (see OP) should not be criticized.
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
I don't care what you criticize.
However, I think the OPs point is not that a bike lane advocate is exempt from criticism, but rather that VC would do better without resulting to insulting pseudo-psychological diagnoses of "cyclist inferiority complex", especially when you are diagnosing based on a couple internet posts.
But we all have room for improvement, and certainly refraining from insulting others is one of those areas.
But, again, it's very hard to do. It's like an evolutionist trying to criticize creationism without insulting those who believe in it. A tough thing to do..., though refraining from assigning psychological labels to them is probably a good idea.
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I think it's more about the size and source of the words you're insulting other people with. AJ and HH use big 'scientific' words to insult people with, and they seem to think that's just fine. But call one of them a freakin' idiot and they object and resent you for doing it, even though it might actually be true.
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
It seems to me that the big flaw with VC is that the VC-ists who promote it discount the real issue of motorist harassment and how real people feel about it. They offer in response to those who have experienced harassment, or who simply express concerns that they may experience it, at best pooh-poohing and at worst outright ridicule with phony diagnoses of mental illness, phobias, tauntings that they are superstitious, and insults that they have low IQs and reading comprehension problems.
It's a classic case of something actually well-made being sold by the engineers who made it and not the marketers who know how to sell something.
Can you guys not see that placing those with whom you disagree into your "enemies" camp, or discrediting their concerns, or tossing out only "facts" (such as they may be) without understanding the way people are moved emotionally -- and in fact, discrediting all emotion as weakness and stupidity -- is the real reason for your failure to gain market share?
You need to quit the insults, quit believing that "data" and statistics is the only meaningful measurement of value, and start figuring out a way to work vehicular cycling principles into the existing network of on-street cycling facilities. Otherwise you are doomed to failure. It's time for new packaging, new messaging, new ideas.
It's a classic case of something actually well-made being sold by the engineers who made it and not the marketers who know how to sell something.
Can you guys not see that placing those with whom you disagree into your "enemies" camp, or discrediting their concerns, or tossing out only "facts" (such as they may be) without understanding the way people are moved emotionally -- and in fact, discrediting all emotion as weakness and stupidity -- is the real reason for your failure to gain market share?
You need to quit the insults, quit believing that "data" and statistics is the only meaningful measurement of value, and start figuring out a way to work vehicular cycling principles into the existing network of on-street cycling facilities. Otherwise you are doomed to failure. It's time for new packaging, new messaging, new ideas.
It seems to me as being patently obvious that the great public demand for bikeways is based on only two thoughts. First, bikeways clear the way for motorists. Second, bikeways make cycling much safer. The motoring advocates don't have to loudly advance their agenda, for two reasons. First, every motorist recognizes the benefit to him. Second, loud advocacy of the motoring argument for bikeways would backfire. The loud advocacy for bikeways comes from the anti-motoring groups presenting the safety argument, with which the large majority of the public probably agrees, without thinking about it. The popularity argument is based on this unthinking agreement about safety, and the safety arguments are all based on the greatly exaggerated danger of same-direction motor traffic.
Since the safety argument has no scientific support, its success is an emotional issue, not a factual one.There would be very little public support for the bikeway program if this greatly exaggerated fear of same-direction motor traffic did not exist. That fear is what has made this program possible. The definition of a phobia is a condition in which a greatly exaggerated fear causes a person to take actions that are contrary to that person's best interests.
Therefore, I say that people who advocate bikeways by either the safety or the popularity arguments are either, if honest, suffering from the phobia to some degree, or, if dishonest, are using the prevalence of that phobia in the general population even though the advocate knows the facts. As long as the vehicular-cycling advocate is faced with bikeway advocacy from bicycle advocates, he is going to state the obvious, that the bikeway advocacy from bicycle advocates is based on false fears and phobic response to them.
Now, if, Diane, you have given up on bikeway advocacy and sincerely desire to assist in cycling advocacy that is based on the best interests of cyclists, and can raise a body of people with similar aims, then discussion of the reduction of harassment by motorists would be useful.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
You seem to not appreciate the difference between seeking change forcefully and seeking change peacefully through persuasion. There is nothing oppressive about the latter by definition, since free people are free to ignore all such efforts, including you.
I see no peace in harassment.