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  1. #1
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    Blue Bike Lanes in Philly

    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...&t=k&z=19&om=1

    This is the intersection between I76 and Spring Garden Street in Philadelphia. At any time of the day, this intersection has pretty heavy usage of the right turn lane. As you can see from the link, the bike lane didn't always have the blue paint but it does now (just saw it Wednesday night for the first time). Do you think the blue paint makes this bike lane any better? Is this the type of bike lane you'd expect from a city that loves to boast about it's extensive bike lane network?

    If you scroll a little to the west on the same street, you'll see another pitiful intersection treatment (31st and Spring Garden).

  2. #2
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    that looks like a real bike-friendly location....

    the blue paint really detracts from the total vehicular cycling experience...


  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i thought you never rode in bike lanes, joe. do you mean you drove by these?

    I surmise, once some traffic data is collected, just like in Portland, the stats will show more drivers yielding for bikes merging in the blue zone and drivers more cognizant of bicyclists.

    a vehicular cyclist could ride those blue lanes, vehicularily, no problem.

    bad blue paint, bad! shame on you for increasing cognification of bikes to drivers!
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #4
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...&t=k&z=19&om=1

    This is the intersection between I76 and Spring Garden Street in Philadelphia. At any time of the day, this intersection has pretty heavy usage of the right turn lane. As you can see from the link, the bike lane didn't always have the blue paint but it does now (just saw it Wednesday night for the first time). Do you think the blue paint makes this bike lane any better? Is this the type of bike lane you'd expect from a city that loves to boast about it's extensive bike lane network?

    If you scroll a little to the west on the same street, you'll see another pitiful intersection treatment (31st and Spring Garden).
    I'm very familiar with the location having cycled it almost everyday for 5 years in the early 70's when there were no bike lanes anywhere in the city, and as recently as last year when my daughter lived at 33rd and Spring Garden. It is a difficult stretch for bicycling, but can be done quite safely; it just requires cyclist alertness. I doubt that anyone makes great claims for bike lanes on that specific stretch. Bike lanes neither add nor detract from the hazards of that busy road.

    Do you have a suggested improvement or alternative for safer cycling on the Spring Garden Street Bridge or the area from the Art Museum to Powelton Village to the west? WOL lanes with no striping perhaps? Think that would change a dang thing? I don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...&t=k&z=19&om=1

    This is the intersection between I76 and Spring Garden Street in Philadelphia. At any time of the day, this intersection has pretty heavy usage of the right turn lane. As you can see from the link, the bike lane didn't always have the blue paint but it does now (just saw it Wednesday night for the first time). Do you think the blue paint makes this bike lane any better? Is this the type of bike lane you'd expect from a city that loves to boast about it's extensive bike lane network?

    If you scroll a little to the west on the same street, you'll see another pitiful intersection treatment (31st and Spring Garden).

    The bike lane is painted diagonally across the right-hand motor lane to indicate that the cyclist would be advised to get to the left of that lane, which apparently has significant right-turning traffic. That is a good position for the cyclist to achieve, but the forced diagonal path over is dangerous. The cyclist should take his time and distance, probably starting earlier, to make a proper negotiated merge over, rather than just following the bike lane as if it gave him the right of way.That's bad bike-lane thinking.

  6. #6
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin

    .
    The blue diagonal bike lane at the very bottom of the image is terrible. It cuts across the lane after it becomes a RTOL. It implies the cyclist has the ROW even though the cyclist, not the RTOL vehicle, is the one merging left. Cyclists need to merge left well before the lane turns into a RTOL. I wonder how many cyclists are lulled by the blue to not even look back and negotiate the merge.

    Al

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    that looks like a real bike-friendly location....

    the blue paint really detracts from the total vehicular cycling experience...

    220 miles of bike lanes in Philly. Woohoo

    That bike lane severely detracts from the vehicular cycling experience as what vehicular cyclist in their right mind would choose to go to the right of a right turn only lane then try to merge across that lane back into the straight lane instead of just merging into the straight lane before the turn lane started?

  8. #8
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    220 miles of bike lanes in Philly. Woohoo

    That bike lane severely detracts from the vehicular cycling experience as what vehicular cyclist in their right mind would choose to go to the right of a right turn only lane then try to merge across that lane back into the straight lane instead of just merging into the straight lane before the turn lane started?
    Anything stopping a right minded vehicular cyclist from doing just as you suggest? Right minded vehicular cyclists certainly are not intimidated by a little paint or disapproving glares are they?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    i thought you never rode in bike lanes, joe. do you mean you drove by these?

    I surmise, once some traffic data is collected, just like in Portland, the stats will show more drivers yielding for bikes merging in the blue zone and drivers more cognizant of bicyclists.

    a vehicular cyclist could ride those blue lanes, vehicularily, no problem.

    bad blue paint, bad! shame on you for increasing cognification of bikes to drivers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    i thought you never rode in bike lanes, joe. do you mean you drove by these?

    I surmise, once some traffic data is collected, just like in Portland, the stats will show more drivers yielding for bikes merging in the blue zone and drivers more cognizant of bicyclists.

    a vehicular cyclist could ride those blue lanes, vehicularily, no problem.

    bad blue paint, bad! shame on you for increasing cognification of bikes to drivers!
    I had taken the subway downtown to meet a friend at a bar and he drove me back home since he was heading that way anyway. So yes, Bek, I saw it out of the window of a car. For about two years while in college, I biked through that intersection at least 3 times a week though either commuting to class or heading to the Kelly Drive MUP to terrorize peds on my MTB (no, I'm not proud of how I cycled those days).

    Here's the question, why should motorists be expected to yield to cyclists in a bike lane, blue or not? Cyclists are not emergency vehicles, are they? Isn't it a bit misleading to have motorists yielding to cyclists in bike lanes but not anywhere else on the road? If a cyclist is used to manuevering across traffic lanes with the assumption that other traffic will yield to him, don't you think that cyclist will encounter some unsafe situations?

    A vehicular cyclist could ride that bike lane but they would need to make a difficult merge across a traffic lane full of people looking to turn right and somehow time the merge with the start of the dashed stripes (the cyclist should stay in the bike lane, right?). Why would they make that more difficult merge instead of continuing straight with a small merge left into the straight traffic lane?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Anything stopping a right minded vehicular cyclist from doing just as you suggest? Right minded vehicular cyclists certainly are not intimidated by a little paint or disapproving glares are they?
    No, there is nothing stopping me from doing that, but isn't it a bit misleading for the paint on the street to demonstrate a back-ass-wards way of dealing with the intersection? Do you not see anything wrong with novice cyclists and motorists getting the expectation that cyclists should negotiate that intersection like the paint shows?

  11. #11
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i think you're a bit confused as to what that blue paint does, or why drivers are expected to yield to traffic ahead of them making a lateral, joe.

    i think you are so strongly anti-accomodationalist you refuse to see the improvements for bicyclist cognification those newly painted blue zones provide. chances are very good that more motorists will be cognizant of riders in that intersection.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    I'm very familiar with the location having cycled it almost everyday for 5 years in the early 70's when there were no bike lanes anywhere in the city, and as recently as last year when my daughter lived at 33rd and Spring Garden. It is a difficult stretch for bicycling, but can be done quite safely; it just requires cyclist alertness. I doubt that anyone makes great claims for bike lanes on that specific stretch. Bike lanes neither add nor detract from the hazards of that busy road.

    Do you have a suggested improvement or alternative for safer cycling on the Spring Garden Street Bridge or the area from the Art Museum to Powelton Village to the west? WOL lanes with no striping perhaps? Think that would change a dang thing? I don't.
    If the city felt that cyclists needed some help negotiating that intersection, I think posting a sign advising cyclists that the bike lanes ends (Philly uses these signs often anyway) and that they should merge left (just like they would if a traffic lane was ending) would be a good start. The bike lane would end before the right turn started and not restart until after the right turn lane was established.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    i think you're a bit confused as to what that blue paint does, or why drivers are expected to yield to traffic ahead of them making a lateral, joe.

    i think you are so strongly anti-accomodationalist you refuse to see the improvements for bicyclist cognification those newly painted blue zones provide. chances are very good that more motorists will be cognizant of riders in that intersection.
    I think you're confused about the magical powers of some blue paint added to a crappy bike lane. Chances are good that motorists will be too busy thinking about how long they are going to sit at a standstill on 76 to even notice the blue paint, or more importantly, the cyclist merging across their path who now expects the motorist to yield to them.

  14. #14
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    No, there is nothing stopping me from doing that, but isn't it a bit misleading for the paint on the street to demonstrate a back-ass-wards way of dealing with the intersection? Do you not see anything wrong with novice cyclists and motorists getting the expectation that cyclists should negotiate that intersection like the paint shows?
    I think even novice cyclists have more cycling smarts and are more adaptable to their environment than the VC dogmatists wish to credit them. Few, if any novice cyclists, are cycling with dingy notions of transcendence based on what they read in a book or infer from a painted stripe: nor are they oblivious of their surroundings in a busy difficult intersection because of a painted stripe, as surmised by the VC dogmatists.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    Apparently the powers-that-be thought the same thing and sand blasted the RTOL markings off of the roadway.
    I don't remember 100% but I'm pretty certain the RTOL markings were there last week.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    I think even novice cyclists have more cycling smarts and are more adaptable to their environment than the VC dogmatists wish to credit them. Few, if any novice cyclists, are cycling with dingy notions of transcendence based on what they read in a book or infer from a painted stripe: nor are they oblivious of their surroundings in a busy difficult intersection because of a painted stripe, as surmised by the VC dogmatists.
    My experience watching Philly (and elsewhere) cyclists has shown me otherwise. I've seen a few actually lookback to negotiate merges; most just go and hope for the best. Maybe I just happen to see all the idiots.

  17. #17
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i think you're complaining unecessarily and without good cause. you're virtually whining about roadway improvements that are going to increase visibility of bicyclists thru that intersection.

    just ride, dude, ride.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  18. #18
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Straight up, I like the Blue Lane idea....

    It gives the motorists a better understanding that it's a complex intersection to negotiate on a bike. As far as someone trusting the Blue Paint as a "Shield of Invulnerability"? I kinda see that as a Darwinian principle to remove the idiots from the gene pool! I'm watching to make sure no ones running a traffic light at an intersection even, as I don't trust most motorists. Not afraid of them, just don't trust 'em! (My personal opinion!)
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  19. #19
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe
    As far as someone trusting the Blue Paint as a "Shield of Invulnerability"? I kinda see that as a Darwinian principle to remove the idiots from the gene pool!
    I see the Paint as a "Shield of Invulnerability" as a straw man argument constantly troted out by those with an anti-paint agenda and/or an "education" program to promote. It is apparantly irrelevant to those who make that argument that the casualties of such an alleged dangerous thought process are so few and far between.

  20. #20
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    I see the Paint as a "Shield of Invulnerability" as a straw man argument constantly troted out by those with an anti-paint agenda and/or an "education" program to promote. It is apparantly irrelevant to those who make that argument that the casualties of such an alleged dangerous thought process are so few and far between.
    Post my whole statement please, I also said I liked the idea. Do not quote me out of context, that's not nice!

    Edit: I was just observing on a statement made earlier in the thread as well where a poster had said that he'd observed people not looking as they rode their bikes into the blue lane.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


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