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  1. #1
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    VC at uphill intersections?

    http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1045851

    Above is a link to Texas Street, one of our nice little hills in San Diego. It's no mountain, but it's in my daily commute, and I am right proud of my tubby self for making it up every day.

    The south end is the top of the hill, btw.

    From the intersection below, up to about where the bike lane on the southbound/uphill side goes dashed, and disappears entirely, is a little over 1/3 of a mile at an almost 12% grade.

    You'll notice that right as the dashed bike lane disappears, there is a place for cars to make a right turn. There is a signal-controlled intersection a few feet ahead, where the hill levels off.

    -----

    I have heard it said many times that when approaching a place where a right turn is allowed, one should move laterally away from the edge of the road to avoid a right hook. On this road, when I ride on it there are usually at least 1/2 a dozen right turners at the spot where the bike lane ends.

    Also, I have read that when turning left at an intersection, one should either merge over one lane at a time, or do a pedestrian-style two-point left turn by going straight and crossing.

    Is that how any of you VC advocates recommend handling this road?

    ------


    FWIW, I don't move left of the dashed bike lane.

    I am going all of about 3-4mph at this point, since it's a steep section, and I am already tired.

    Cars that turn right pass me and turn in what would be a right hook, if I were going faster. But I'm not, so there's plenty of time/space.

    Then when I get within a few feet of the intersection I verify that the car(s) behind are giving me ROW, and I chug straight through. If a car right hooked me, I could easily turn with them or roll off my bike into the plants on the side, since I am going so slowly.

    Of course, this has never happened, and I feel safe all the way to the top of the hill.

    Then, when I get to the top, and it levels out, I usually time the light so it's red. I merge across both through-lanes in one motion, after the left-turn lane has gone solid. I move accross the solid line of the left turn lane, and cut in line.

    The car drivers often smile and wave. I have never had one angry about my "rude" behavior.

    Is my cycling behavior here VC?
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  2. #2
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1045851

    Above is a link to Texas Street, one of our nice little hills in San Diego. It's no mountain, but it's in my daily commute, and I am right proud of my tubby self for making it up every day.

    The south end is the top of the hill, btw.

    From the intersection below, up to about where the bike lane on the southbound/uphill side goes dashed, and disappears entirely, is a little over 1/3 of a mile at an almost 12% grade.

    You'll notice that right as the dashed bike lane disappears, there is a place for cars to make a right turn. There is a signal-controlled intersection a few feet ahead, where the hill levels off.

    -----

    I have heard it said many times that when approaching a place where a right turn is allowed, one should move laterally away from the edge of the road to avoid a right hook. On this road, when I ride on it there are usually at least 1/2 a dozen right turners at the spot where the bike lane ends.

    Also, I have read that when turning left at an intersection, one should either merge over one lane at a time, or do a pedestrian-style two-point left turn by going straight and crossing.

    Is that how any of you VC advocates recommend handling this road?

    ------


    FWIW, I don't move left of the dashed bike lane.

    I am going all of about 3-4mph at this point, since it's a steep section, and I am already tired.

    Cars that turn right pass me and turn in what would be a right hook, if I were going faster. But I'm not, so there's plenty of time/space.

    Then when I get within a few feet of the intersection I verify that the car(s) behind are giving me ROW, and I chug straight through. If a car right hooked me, I could easily turn with them or roll off my bike into the plants on the side, since I am going so slowly.

    Of course, this has never happened, and I feel safe all the way to the top of the hill.

    Then, when I get to the top, and it levels out, I usually time the light so it's red. I merge across both through-lanes in one motion, after the left-turn lane has gone solid. I move accross the solid line of the left turn lane, and cut in line.

    The car drivers often smile and wave. I have never had one angry about my "rude" behavior.

    Is my cycling behavior here VC?

    Sounds pretty much like my left turn on Regents road after ascending from the valley where hiway 52 runs. I make a left across Regents to Luna. The speed limit on Regents is 50MPH with a 35MPH decrease about 200 yards before the top, where the light is. Motorists rarely slow to 35.

    I generally time it to get behind the largest group of motorists just before the light... I am usually doing 6-8MPH, so sometimes I slow to a crawl, look for a good break in traffic and then ease left... I can't tell if anyone is coming until I move left due to the curves of the road. As I ease left I get a better view down the road and then move accordingly. I signal, but it shouldn't matter as I do this only when there is a good long break in traffic... and any approaching motorists are so far back that they probably are not looking. and don't care anyway.

    Of course the left turn loop never detects me (I have reported it and they have responded... to no avail). So I have to wait for a good gap and then I run the light. (although sometimes a motorist comes into the lane and does trigger the lght.

    A two point turn would hardly work as motorists barely hesitate before making the right turn at the top. And like you, I don't want to be trapped against the curb.

    The key to my crossing is timing the traffic, then moving left and watching down the hill to ensure that I do have a gap. Regents does have gaps in traffic, unlike the parallel Genesee, which seems to flow steadily. This is one reason I prefer Regents, it actually gets quiet for some small period as I ascend... rather than the constant roar and rush of traffic on Genesee.

    Is it VC; is your method VC... who knows, at 4MPH I am right at ped speed, and at 6MPH I am at about slow jogging speed. I am still on wheels, so am I vehicular? Who knows... it works and I am not looking for nor expecting any motorist response.

    BTW I have never ridden Texas street. I have used either Fairmont or Juan street to come up from the valley... for some reason I have never needed to come up in the center.

    Now I do a similar thing coming off hiway 5 and turning left on Genesee... only in this case I stick my left arm out for a long time, and await the first motorist that actually slows way down for me... I use them as a shield to make that left turn at the top. The traffic hits the ramp at 60+MPH, and you cannot tell if there is a gap during rush hour... so I wait for a "shield car" before attemting that left.

    Anyone coming off the hiway will see a slow car with brake lights on and will hopefully slow too.

    I have had motorists just "fly" past my outstretched arm... so I patiently wait... moving about 6MPH for 5-8 car lenths it takes to get a "shield car." I could push it and "sprint" up to maybe 10-12 MPH to make the same turn... but with with autos closing at 60, why take chances?

  3. #3
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    I used to live on Texas St. That's one heck of a hill! I only ever rode up the hill once. I would ride up Washington instead. I don't care that it might mean going out of my way. Texas was too narrow and steep and the traffic too heavy and fast back then.

    I would say, who cares if your method qualifies as "VC". It sounds like you're doing what works.
    ~Diane
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    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  4. #4
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Is that how any of you VC advocates recommend handling this road?
    • You aren't using the wrong lane for your destination, so that is consistent with the rules for drivers.
    • You aren't overtaking traffic on the right, so that is consistent with the rules for drivers.
    • You aren't violating the right of way of traffic in the adjacent lane (or line) when you move laterally, instead you are looking and yielding, so that is consistent with the rules for drivers of vehicles.


    also,

    • You aren't having to slam on your brakes to avoid right turning traffic, so not much more defensive driving is required there
    • You appear to have plenty of time to negotiate with the right-turning traffic before you cross the intersection


    Riding farther left to avoid right hooks is a defensive driving technique that is compatible with the rules for drivers. It is not a requirement mandated by the rules for drivers. If this defensive driving technique is of little use to you, due to your very slow speed, and your other skills are working well, then don't concern yourself with it.

    BTW, John Forester has written that when speed differences are very high, moving across multiple lanes into a left lane is usually best done by being patient and waiting for a sufficient gap to move through all of the lanes at once. Moving one lane at a time is more convenient, but is easier and more pleasant when traffic speed differentials are lower. I have merged one-lane-at-a-time across 3 lanes on 6-lane roads posted 55mph, but only where congestion has reduce the speeds a bit and eliminated big gaps in traffic.

  5. #5
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    It is not a requirement mandated by the rules for drivers.
    Should the wikipedia article be changed then?

    It says that "negotiating" is the VC method.
    The key to the process is that the cyclist merges into traffic lanes as per the rules of the road, one lane at a time.
    It says that the following are not VC:
    Not merging out of a curbside bicycle lane when approaching a junction or intersection when the cyclist is going straight.
    While a traffic light is red, moving to the front of the traffic queue instead of taking one's place in line according to the first come, first served principle.
    Darting inward across the roadway from the outer edge of the road, instead of merging across one marked lane at a time.
    Examples of pedestrian cycling:

    * going straight across an intersection from the outside edge of the road
    * making inside turns only when it's clear (don't bother negotiating) by darting straight across the road during a gap
    I hug the side, even at the intersection. I wait for a gap, and then dart accross the road in one motion. I cross the turn lane line and cut in front of about a dozen cars.

    So out of my 3 behaviors, steve said (I believe) that 1 and 2 were compatible with VC. Other VC advocates: agree/disagree? What about behavior 3?
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  6. #6
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    VC is just a worthless political stance against bike infrastructure

    riding your bike in the 'vc' manner is now AC- ANYTHING GOES, BABY!~
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  7. #7
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diane
    used to live on Texas St. That's one heck of a hill! I only ever rode up the hill once. I would ride up Washington instead. I don't care that it might mean going out of my way. Texas was too narrow and steep and the traffic too heavy and fast back then.
    I started out by choosing alternate routes up. I was still dying when I first started. Even on Washington. Then I got used to them, and started up Texas. Now Washington feels like something that I could spin up slowly all day.

    Of course, because of the narrow merge at the end, I wouldn't personally every try Texas on a bent, or a trike. The only reason I am comfortable with it is that with my touring frame I can hold a really steady, narrow line, even at 3mph.

    But, I agree with you, it's whatever works.
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  8. #8
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1045851

    Above is a link to Texas Street, one of our nice little hills in San Diego. It's no mountain, but it's in my daily commute, and I am right proud of my tubby self for making it up every day.

    The south end is the top of the hill, btw.

    From the intersection below, up to about where the bike lane on the southbound/uphill side goes dashed, and disappears entirely, is a little over 1/3 of a mile at an almost 12% grade.

    You'll notice that right as the dashed bike lane disappears, there is a place for cars to make a right turn. There is a signal-controlled intersection a few feet ahead, where the hill levels off.

    -----

    I have heard it said many times that when approaching a place where a right turn is allowed, one should move laterally away from the edge of the road to avoid a right hook. On this road, when I ride on it there are usually at least 1/2 a dozen right turners at the spot where the bike lane ends.

    Also, I have read that when turning left at an intersection, one should either merge over one lane at a time, or do a pedestrian-style two-point left turn by going straight and crossing.

    Is that how any of you VC advocates recommend handling this road?

    ------


    FWIW, I don't move left of the dashed bike lane.

    I am going all of about 3-4mph at this point, since it's a steep section, and I am already tired.

    Cars that turn right pass me and turn in what would be a right hook, if I were going faster. But I'm not, so there's plenty of time/space.

    Then when I get within a few feet of the intersection I verify that the car(s) behind are giving me ROW, and I chug straight through. If a car right hooked me, I could easily turn with them or roll off my bike into the plants on the side, since I am going so slowly.

    Of course, this has never happened, and I feel safe all the way to the top of the hill.

    Then, when I get to the top, and it levels out, I usually time the light so it's red. I merge across both through-lanes in one motion, after the left-turn lane has gone solid. I move across the solid line of the left turn lane, and cut in line.

    The car drivers often smile and wave. I have never had one angry about my "rude" behavior.

    Is my cycling behavior here VC?
    I've only been up Texas Street 2 or 3 times, and each time I turned left at the top. Frankly, I can't remember exactly what I did, but it seems to me that by the time you get close to the light the hill is not nearly as steep as it is earlier. I certainly don't recall thinking it was a place where negotiation was not a practical option. Of course, I've yet to find such a place anywhere in San Diego County. Having said that, the left turn from w/b La Jolla Village Drive, coming up from Gilman, to s/b Torrey Pines Road into La Jolla, which is on my commute, is much more challenging, I think. The climb is steep, doesn't really flatten out until you're in the left turn lane, and you have to merge across 3 lanes of 50+ mph traffic. Plus, there is a curve to the right at the top which shortens driver's sight lines. I still manage to negotiate my way across, even in the most challenging situations, but it's something very few cyclists would even consider doing in many situations (the alternative is to continue in the bike lane to the light, and then make two ped crossings in crosswalks).

    By the way, on Texas St., the bike lane was repainted, twice, in the last year, and is better than before, but still substandard width.

    As far as what you did being VC or not, I agree with Steve. VC encompasses a broad range of choices and styles, all of which are VC unless they violate the basic principles and rules of the road that drivers generally follow all over the world. Also, some of the VC rules are fairly rigid (like don't ride at night without lights), while others are suggested best practices or techniques, the not using of which does not mean you're violating VC. For example, while it is VC to merge across one lane at a time, if you pull aside and wait for a gap, that's not necessarily not VC (I know in at least some areas of Mexico, that's normal behavior for car drivers).

  9. #9
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Should the wikipedia article be changed then?
    Yes, it conveys VC as being much more rigid that it really is.

  10. #10
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    So out of my 3 behaviors, steve said (I believe) that 1 and 2 were compatible with VC. Other VC advocates: agree/disagree? What about behavior 3?
    Why do you give a poop if VC advocates agree or disagree about any cycling behavior? Do you actually place any value on their proclamations/declarations of VC dogma, or are you just teasing their vanity?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    I hug the side, even at the intersection. I wait for a gap, and then dart accross the road in one motion. I cross the turn lane line and cut in front of about a dozen cars.

    So out of my 3 behaviors, steve said (I believe) that 1 and 2 were compatible with VC. Other VC advocates: agree/disagree? What about behavior 3?
    I'd look at that as going briefly into ped mode to get to the left turn lane but you acted vehicularly up to that point as far as I can tell. It's similar in my mind to when I've been at a redlight in a straight lane on a multilane road and realized that I was supposed to make a turn at that intersection. Instead of being forced to go straight like if I was in a car, I convert to a ped and walk (or ride if there's room) into the turn lane.

    You are taking advantage of being able to act like a pedestrian when it makes your life easier and doing so at a time when no one is expecting you to be acting like a vehicle (there's a gap in traffic).

  12. #12
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Yes, it conveys VC as being much more rigid that it really is.
    So should I take it that all 3 of my behaviors are VC?

    EDIT:
    Also, does that mean that when you first wrote the article, you didn't understand VC correctly? or does it mean that you did a poor job of explaining what VC is?
    Last edited by zeytoun; 06-14-07 at 10:26 AM.
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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Cutting through the crosswalk to your left turn position might be considered VC switching to Pedestrian then switching back to VC.

  14. #14
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    EDIT:
    Also, does that mean that when you first wrote the article, you didn't understand VC correctly? or does it mean that you did a poor job of explaining what VC is?
    Or maybe edited by many others!

  15. #15
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Cutting through the crosswalk to your left turn position might be considered VC switching to Pedestrian then switching back to VC.
    I don't do that.

    Or maybe edited by many others!
    http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php...99#post4559499
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    So should I take it that all 3 of my behaviors are VC?

    EDIT:
    Also, does that mean that when you first wrote the article, you didn't understand VC correctly? or does it mean that you did a poor job of explaining what VC is?
    Probably both, plus others editing.

    The question of whether VC is a scientific theory aside, I think it's useful to remember that the way scientific theories evolve is that each starts out as a hypothesis that seems to explain all known facts within the applicable domain. As more facts are brought in, sometimes adjustments have to be made. The ultimate goal is a theory that accurately predicts.

    That evolutionary process is applicable to any formation of a set of best practices for any endeavor, and VC is no exception.

    That said, I must admit that I struggle with the question of where the line is between the set of cycling behavior that is consistent with general principles and rules of the road, and the set of behavior that includes best practices that go beyond merely operating consistently with the rules of the road, and which of the two VC refers to.

    For example, the general rule is lateral movements should be preceded by a look back to verify you have the right of way to make that movement. But if you're making a left turn from the left side of your side of the road, and there is double-yellow stripe, is not looking back prior to making that left turn, just in case some flagrant law-breaker is passing you on the left VC or not? On the one hand, you have the right of way whether you look or not. On the other hand, why not look? So we can probably agree it's good practice to look anyway, but is it VC if you don't look? I honestly don't know.

    As far as your 3 behaviors, again, I have to refrain from saying definitively one way or another because I'm still struggling with this issue.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 06-14-07 at 11:46 AM.

  17. #17
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    That said, I must admit that I struggle with the question of where the line is between the set of cycling behavior that is consistent with general principles and rules of the road, and the set of behavior that includes best practices that go beyond merely operating consistently with the rules of the road, and which of the two VC refers to.
    So you are not sure which parts of your Wikipedia article, or other definitions in this forum, go beyond the basic definition of VC?

    ----

    You once gave me a link with 5 basic principles of VC. Here it is again:
    http://www.wright.edu/~jeffrey.hiles/essays/listening/ch4.html
    Are the 5 basic principles* listed here VC#, HHVC%, or occupying the grey area?

    -----

    *
    • Drive on the right side of the roadway, never on the left and never on the sidewalk.
    • When you reach a more important or larger road than the one you are on, yield to crossing traffic. Here, yielding means looking to each side and waiting until no traffic is coming.
    • When you intend to change lanes or move laterally on the roadway, yield to traffic in the new lane or line of travel. Here, yielding means looking forward and backward until you see that no traffic is coming.
    • When approaching an intersection, position yourself with respect to your destination direction—on the right near the curb if you want to turn right, on the left near the center line if you want to turn left, and between those positions if you want to go straight.
    • Between intersections, position yourself according to your speed relative to other traffic; slower traffic is nearer the curb and faster traffic is nearer the centerline (Forester, 1993, p. 246).
    #
    the set of cycling behavior that is consistent with general principles and rules of the road
    %
    Helmet-Head-brand-VC
    the set of behavior that includes best practices that go beyond merely operating consistently with the rules of the road
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  18. #18
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    Should the wikipedia article be changed then?

    It says that "negotiating" is the VC method.
    ...

    I hug the side, even at the intersection. I wait for a gap, and then dart accross the road in one motion. I cross the turn lane line and cut in front of about a dozen cars.
    The vehicular rules require you to yield before changing lanes, and to make your movement safely. Your earlier description implied this. Now you are using the word "dart" as if to describe the scenario of a child or animal surprising drivers by suddenly entering the space in front of them without looking and yielding.

    Certainly you may change multiple lanes in one trajectory without staying in the intermediate ones if there is adequate space to do this safely and without surprising other drivers.

    I did not interpret your original post as you cutting in front of other cars, i.e. overtaking them and breaking into line in front of them. I had inferred that you were traveling slower than the other traffic. I will have to re-read it to see what I misunderstood. I don't endorse overtaking on the right.

    --

    Okay, I've re-read it; you appear to be saying that you cut in line with the left turn lane traffic. Why not simply make your merge farther back so that you don't have to cut in line? That is what I do when climbing a hill toward a left turn on a 6-lane road. I merge all the way over when a big gap in traffic appears, but well before I reach the queue at the left turn lane.
    Last edited by sggoodri; 06-14-07 at 03:47 PM.

  19. #19
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Now you are using the word "dart" as if to describe the scenario of a child or animal surprising drivers by suddenly entering the space in front of them without looking and yielding.
    No such implication. I look, yield, and when there is a safe gap, I dart accross both lanes in one fast motion. This is at the top of the hill when it is level.

    Why not simply make your merge farther back so that you don't have to cut in line?
    Just in case this is not clear, I am perfectly content with my way of riding the hill. I feel it is the safest method for me. Drivers also seem very satisfied with how I handle this road. I am comfortable, by the way, in merging across lanes of fast traffic for left turns in different situations.

    Frankly, merging into the left-most lane on a steep grade well in advance of my turn, with fast traffic seems pointless and a decrease to my net-safety.

    I just wanted to know if you consider it VC. If not, what VC behavior would be. And if you recommend this behavior, do you in fact perform it yourself.

    That is what I do when climbing a hill toward a left turn on a 6-lane road. I merge all the way over when a big gap in traffic appears, but well before I reach the queue at the left turn lane.
    You do this on a 10+% grade with 40+mph traffic?
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  20. #20
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sggoodri

    --

    Okay, I've re-read it; you appear to be saying that you cut in line with the left turn lane traffic. Why not simply make your merge farther back so that you don't have to cut in line? That is what I do when climbing a hill toward a left turn on a 6-lane road. I merge all the way over when a big gap in traffic appears, but well before I reach the queue at the left turn lane.
    This is what I do in these hill situations... the difference in speed between myself and motorists along a 50MPH road AND the presence of large gaps make this quite possible. Otherwise, I would make the crossing one lane at a time... a somewhat risky situation in heavy traffic moving at 50MPH while I am moving at 4-8MPH.

    In other places where I have more speed on and I can actually negotiate with motorists (even JF mentions the difficulty of "negotiation" when there are great speed differences) I do it one lane at a time, gap or no gap, based on negotiation. In otherwords, when I am moving quite slow, I look for one huge gap and don't bother negotiating, when I am moving fast enough to not slow traffic terribly much, I negotiate for gaps.

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    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    I just wanted to know if you consider it VC. If not, what VC behavior would be. And if you recommend this behavior, do you in fact perform it yourself.
    ....
    You do this on a 10+% grade with 40+mph traffic?
    I am considering this question in terms of what I would recommend to a student taking a Road 1 class I'm teaching, as well as what I do myself.

    Being on a steep uphill grade in the direction of the roadway need not greatly decrease the speed at which the cyclist crosses the lanes in the direction perpendicular to the grade. So, it should only require a few seconds to merge over two lanes, plus a little extra time for comfort, when choosing a gap in traffic. Maybe a little longer than waiting until the top of the hill as you describe, but I really can't say without being there. The important thing is to choose the gap conservatively since drivers won't have much time to see you and compensate if you misjudge.

    After moving across an adequate break in traffic and upon arriving near the center of the roadway to take the left turn, there are three possible conditions.

    One possibility is that the left turn only lane has not started yet. In this case I ride up the left edge of the inside through lane until I reach the start of the left turn lane. I did this on a road posted 45 max on my commute home today. Since drivers sit on the left side of their vehicles in the US, they have a very good view of me and their passing distance, and so I have not had any concerns about this.

    A second possiblity is that the left turn only lane has started but the back of the queue of left turning traffic is still ahead of me. This is preferable, since I can take my normal position in line but am out of the way of straight through traffic. I do not feel worried about other traffic that may arrive in the LTO lane behind me because they must be prepared to slow and/or stop for the turn or the stopped traffic ahead anyway. Now, if I have moved across very early, and the LTO lane is very long, the traffic in it may still be moving very fast, and this could be somewhat uncomfortable, but I don't often encounter such situations. Drivers can change lane to pass me before turning left if they must, and sometimes they do.

    The third possibility is that drivers are already queued in the left turn only lane and I have overshot the back of the stopped queue. I try very hard to avoid this, because since the traffic is stopped it would usually be difficult to negotiate a space between the traffic to merge into the LTO lane. I cannot remember this happening to me; I negotiate my lane changes before traffic beside me has actually stopped, else I probably give up on making the turn, just as I would in my car. The closest I have come was merging left across two lanes (rightmost became a RTO lane, center through) while climbing a steep hill. By the time I got beside the LTO lane, drivers in the LTO lane were slowing and stopping. I had to match speed with them in order to negotiate a merge, and so I had to travel slowly while still in the through lane, which had a green light ahead. A driver behind me in the through lane became irate that I slowed him down; he honked his horn and told me that I gave cyclists a bad name by being so far from the curb. Apparently he believed I ought to operate contrary to the normal rules for drivers in order to stay out of his way, regardless of what larger problems this might cause for others.
    Last edited by sggoodri; 06-14-07 at 07:57 PM.

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    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    One possibility is that the left turn only lane has not started yet. In this case I ride up the left edge of the inside through lane until I reach the start of the left turn lane.
    There is a concrete divider, narrow lanes, and no safe room to pass the cars on the left. You would likely have to mount/dismount several times in rapid succession, as traffic is stop and go in this lane, waiting for the next green arrow.

    A second possiblity is that the left turn only lane has started but the back of the queue of left turning traffic is still ahead of me.
    The left turn queue is usually backed up into the left traffic lane at rush hour when I ride this road. In response to the block left lane, the cars rush to change lanes into the right.

    The third possibility is that drivers are already queued in the left turn only lane and I have overshot the back of the stopped queue.
    This is usually what happens by the time there is a suitable gap in traffic.

    I probably give up on making the turn, just as I would in my car.
    The cars are more then happy to let me cut, after watching me pedal up the hill. If the light is red when I get to the level spot just before the light, I have no problem cutting. If the light is green, but there is a gap, I have no problem darting. If the light is green but there is no gap then I would turn right into the gas station on top of the hill, cut through the parking lot and make a left on the other side.

    I think my method is much safer then the VC method, & I think it saves time for both the cyclists and the drivers.
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    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    There is a concrete divider, narrow lanes, and no safe room to pass the cars on the left. You would likely have to mount/dismount several times in rapid succession, as traffic is stop and go in this lane, waiting for the next green arrow.
    ...
    The left turn queue is usually backed up into the left traffic lane at rush hour when I ride this road. In response to the block left lane, the cars rush to change lanes into the right.
    You apparently place a high value on passing stopped traffic, either to avoid missing a signal cycle, or for some other reason. I do not attempt to pass traffic stopped in the queue; I have not had any problems waiting in the queue at a left turn lane, and only rarely have I missed signal cycles by doing so.

    If I were to encounter an intersection where I decided that it is very likely that I would miss a left turn signal cycle by waiting in the left turn queue, I would proceed straight at the intersection, stop, and perform a pedestrian left turn, either walking in a crosswalk or replacing my bike in the roadway on the crossing street and pedaling across on the appropriate signal.

    I'm not going to try to talk you out of what you are doing, but given the number of variables involved, you must understand how difficult it would be to explain effectively to a student, let alone to a police officer or judge if something goes wrong. The vehicular methods I practice and teach work every time, and only occasionally are less convenient than other methods, usually more so. I don't like having to keep track of too many different hazards and conditions in different directions at a single time while cycling; I prefer to keep my traffic negotiation simple. I could never do what bike messengers do; I can scarcely walk and chew gum at the same time. That's why I like the simplicity of the normal rules of the road - they make cycling easier for people like me.
    Last edited by sggoodri; 06-15-07 at 07:11 AM.

  24. #24
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    You apparently place a high value on passing stopped traffic, either to avoid missing a signal cycle, or for some other reason
    You're reading too much into it.

    The vehicular methods I practice and teach work every time
    This statement either means, they have worked for certain people every time, or that they will work for anyone anytime.

    If it is meaning 1, I suggest your sample size is too small.

    If it is meaning 2, it is a statement of faith.
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    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Sgoodri, you are such a super cyclist!

    Zetyoun, you are NOT being VC, just adaptive. but then again, anything goes for VC, yeah.

    here's a little thread hijack. last night, riding home from work, I was NOT as far right as I could have been, safely, to allow faster traffic to pass. I was riding in the center of the lane, because I felt like it. was I being VC?
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