Bike lanes and passing speed.
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Bike lanes and passing speed.
When riding in a bike lane, is it reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you?
FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.
FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
When riding in a bike lane, is it reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you?
FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.
FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.
I agree it's not reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you when you're in a bike lane. Not only that, but it's also not reasonable to expect that they adjust laterally to pass you with a safe passing distance, even if you are near the stripe and so are they.
That's one of the problems with bike lanes: the cyclist in the bike lane often has no clue whether he has been noticed or not.
The cyclist in the same position in a WOL (same road except with BL stripe missing), on the other hand, is much more likely to see slow downs as well as lateral adjustments, any of which is arguably confirmation of being noticed.
Is it phobic to be concerned about whether traffic from behind has noticed you or not? Perhaps. But I think being noticed is relevant not only to reducing the likelihood of inadvertent drift, but also right hooks and close passes (that combined with a relatively small emergency swerve could be lethal).
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I don't think so.
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
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FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you.
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
I don't think one should expect cars to slow down. Only to pass safely, and that does not necessarily correlate to speed or distance, per se. It's really hard to pin down a specific metric that is "safe".
This is a flaw with the 3' passing laws that seem to be spreading across the US.
Al
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
I agree. Higher speed differentials and generally larger vehicles (semi-trucks) require greater passing clearance.
This is a flaw with the 3' passing laws that seem to be spreading across the US.
Al
This is a flaw with the 3' passing laws that seem to be spreading across the US.
Al
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
When riding in a bike lane, is it reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you?
FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.
FWIW, I don't think that it's reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you. In fact, I think that expecting cars to slow down is a manifestation of Motorcar Phobia.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
When you're riding in a bike lane, is it a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you?
(that combined with a relatively small emergency swerve could be lethal).
For me, personally, I'm not concerned. But I believe I have exceptional situational awareness, including to the rear (I use a mirror), and not a typical cyclist. The vast majority of cyclists do not use mirrors and are usually entirely unaware about the situation behind them. Further, they often swerve unexpectedly. We had such an incident in San Diego this week, where a cyclist apparently swerved into the path of a passing motorcyclist, and was killed.
https://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...n05fatal2.html
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Originally Posted by genec
True, but it sure beats the 12 inch passing distance that some motorists feel is more than enough.
Al
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Anyone who would slow down while passing with traffic following is asking for a rear end collision.
Al
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
So, in practice, it is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you.
If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem, then why would you weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane if cars coming from behind you do not slow down?
If you are being truthful, why is it necessary for you to cause cars to slow down and move left as they pass you while you're riding in the bike lane?
That behavior suggests a deep-rooted Motorcar Phobia.
Yet, despite these claims, you have expressed your fear of falling, suddenly leaving your path, etc. due to "slippery and dangerous" debris, etc. and subsequently being hit by a motorcar.
If you're truly not concerned, why do you continue to express these fears and think that a front tire can blow at any moment causing you to swerve in front of a car?
If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem, then why would you weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane if cars coming from behind you do not slow down?
If you are being truthful, why is it necessary for you to cause cars to slow down and move left as they pass you while you're riding in the bike lane?
That behavior suggests a deep-rooted Motorcar Phobia.
Yet, despite these claims, you have expressed your fear of falling, suddenly leaving your path, etc. due to "slippery and dangerous" debris, etc. and subsequently being hit by a motorcar.
If you're truly not concerned, why do you continue to express these fears and think that a front tire can blow at any moment causing you to swerve in front of a car?
The personal concern that I address with my technique is that an approaching motorist might not notice me, choose to attend to a distraction, and drift into me.
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i believe Mr. head is expressing cyclist inferiority disorder and exhibits symptoms of extreme overcompensation lane weaving.
Head sounds like he is not comfortable riding in traffic- which is not suprising, he rides solo in traffic relatively little, definetly not as an everyday, transportational bicyclist (which, in contrast to Mr. Head, MANY of us that post to this forum are)
Mr head admits his favorite rides are while relying on the crutch of the 'safety in numbers' cycling phenomenon by using the 'team fred' pelotons and his daughter on a trail-a-bike to keep the weekend drivers at bay.
john f, any analysis?
Head sounds like he is not comfortable riding in traffic- which is not suprising, he rides solo in traffic relatively little, definetly not as an everyday, transportational bicyclist (which, in contrast to Mr. Head, MANY of us that post to this forum are)
Mr head admits his favorite rides are while relying on the crutch of the 'safety in numbers' cycling phenomenon by using the 'team fred' pelotons and his daughter on a trail-a-bike to keep the weekend drivers at bay.
john f, any analysis?
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Vehicular cycling according to the rules of the road would mean that you have a responsibility to be alert and attentive to hazards, but the rules of the road would not say you should induce a state of panic or hyper-alertness in others just so that you can achieve a feeling of safety. That would actually be against the rules of the road, to induce panic in other people on purpose.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
When riding in a bike lane, is it reasonable to expect that cars slow down as they pass you?
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
You're contradicting yourself again Serge.
See above, you're contradicting yourself once again. If it is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down (as you have most recently claimed), then why are you concerned by them? After all, their tendency is to ignore the fact that you're riding in the bike lane and they pass you as if you're not even there.
In addition Serge, you ignored my questions that gave you an opportunity to clarify your disparate claims.
Again:
See above, you're contradicting yourself once again. If it is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down (as you have most recently claimed), then why are you concerned by them? After all, their tendency is to ignore the fact that you're riding in the bike lane and they pass you as if you're not even there.
In addition Serge, you ignored my questions that gave you an opportunity to clarify your disparate claims.
Again:
If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you, then why would you weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane if cars coming from behind you do not slow down?
If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you, why is it necessary for you to cause cars to slow down and move left as they pass you while you're riding in the bike lane?
I think that your Motorcar Phobia is the basis of many of your contradictory claims. When you "discover" a new aspect of riding in traffic that scares you, you "develop" new "techniques" that assuage that fear.If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you, why is it necessary for you to cause cars to slow down and move left as they pass you while you're riding in the bike lane?
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you, then why would you weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane if cars coming from behind you do not slow down?
If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you, why is it necessary for you to cause cars to slow down and move left as they pass you while you're riding in the bike lane?
If you are being truthful, and it truly is not a problem if cars coming from behind you do not slow down before they pass you, why is it necessary for you to cause cars to slow down and move left as they pass you while you're riding in the bike lane?
That's why I (sometimes) "weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane... to get their attention in order to inhbit them from choosing to attend to a distraction until they've passed me.
That's why I do things to try to cause cars to slow down and move left before they pass me while riding in the bike lane: so I can confirm that the drivers have noticed and are not choosing to attend to a distraction.
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That's why I (sometimes) "weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane... to get their attention in order to inhbit them from choosing to attend to a distraction until they've passed me.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
All of the above quotes are you, writing about yourself.
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
How about a "honk if you like [insert well-liked thing here] t shirt?" That way you don't have to weave and zigzag, which I am sure is a much more dangerous behavior then the low level of risk from inadvertent drifters.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Ah, the ole "nonsense" dodge.
So you describe a whole system of "techniques" that you use to avoid falling/swerving into motorcars and you claim to use your system to prevent motorcars from passing you close and fast (despite that not be a problem or concern, but I digress...) yet "close and fast passing of cyclists by motorists can be dangerous" is not addressed to you.
If that statement doesn't apply to you, then why the Motorcar Phobia-based system for dealing with close and fast passing motorcars?
So you describe a whole system of "techniques" that you use to avoid falling/swerving into motorcars and you claim to use your system to prevent motorcars from passing you close and fast (despite that not be a problem or concern, but I digress...) yet "close and fast passing of cyclists by motorists can be dangerous" is not addressed to you.
If that statement doesn't apply to you, then why the Motorcar Phobia-based system for dealing with close and fast passing motorcars?
For the third and last time:
The personal concern that I address with my technique is that an approaching motorist might not notice me, choose to attend to a distraction, and drift into me.
That's why I (sometimes) "weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane... to get their attention in order to inhibit them from choosing to attend to a distraction until they've passed me.
That's why I do things to try to cause cars to slow down and move left before they pass me while riding in the bike lane: so I can confirm that the drivers have noticed and are not choosing to attend to a distraction.
That's one of the reasons (though there are other more important ones having to do with potential conflicts in front of me) why I default to a centerish lane position.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
What if the bike lane contains slippery and dangerous debris? Would it be dangerous then?
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Originally Posted by HH
That's why I (sometimes) "weave and zigzag while riding in the bike lane... to get their attention in order to inhbit them from choosing to attend to a distraction until they've passed me.
That's why I do things to try to cause cars to slow down and move left before they pass me while riding in the bike lane: so I can confirm that the drivers have noticed and are not choosing to attend to a distraction.
That's why I do things to try to cause cars to slow down and move left before they pass me while riding in the bike lane: so I can confirm that the drivers have noticed and are not choosing to attend to a distraction.
When I ride, bike lane or no bike lane, I keep a consistent straight line to the best of my ability. If I actually need to gain anyone's attention I wave, give a look, signal or honk. If all else fails, and my attempt to gain attention fails and it looks like I might be in for disaster, I get out of the way. Otherwise, we all just proceed along like normal vehicles. I'm not so scared I need to force people to freak out, slow way down and drive a huge arc around me as if I'm radioactive.
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It's pretty clear.
Helmet Head claimed that bicycle lanes encourage close and fast passing from motorcars.
He said this can be dangerous, because a small mistake could be deadly to the cyclist.
He said that, when in a bike lane, he uses the wiggle wag zig zag, and motorists slow down and move left. He doesn't care if they think he's nuts, so long as they pass with a safe margin.
---
Then he said that the technique is not for close passes, but to get the driver's attention and prevent the possibility of inadvertent drift.
---
So the question is, why do you recommend the wiggle waggle zig zag to others as a close-pass-ameliorater, and make no mention of the inadvertent drift, if for you the inadvertent drift is the real danger?
---
Wouln't it save time to just get a big pink flag on your bike, if you're that scared of traffic?
Helmet Head claimed that bicycle lanes encourage close and fast passing from motorcars.
He said this can be dangerous, because a small mistake could be deadly to the cyclist.
He said that, when in a bike lane, he uses the wiggle wag zig zag, and motorists slow down and move left. He doesn't care if they think he's nuts, so long as they pass with a safe margin.
---
Then he said that the technique is not for close passes, but to get the driver's attention and prevent the possibility of inadvertent drift.
---
So the question is, why do you recommend the wiggle waggle zig zag to others as a close-pass-ameliorater, and make no mention of the inadvertent drift, if for you the inadvertent drift is the real danger?
---
Wouln't it save time to just get a big pink flag on your bike, if you're that scared of traffic?
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
It's pretty clear.
Helmet Head claimed that bicycle lanes encourage close and fast passing from motorcars.
He said this can be dangerous, because a small mistake could be deadly to the cyclist.
He said that, when in a bike lane, he uses the wiggle wag zig zag, and motorists slow down and move left. He doesn't care if they think he's nuts, so long as they pass with a safe margin.
---
Then he said that the technique is not for close passes, but to get the driver's attention and prevent the possibility of inadvertent drift.
---
So the question is, why do you recommend the wiggle waggle zig zag to others as a close-pass-ameliorater, and make no mention of the inadvertent drift, if for you the inadvertent drift is the real danger?
---
Wouln't it save time to just get a big pink flag on your bike, if you're that scared of traffic?
Helmet Head claimed that bicycle lanes encourage close and fast passing from motorcars.
He said this can be dangerous, because a small mistake could be deadly to the cyclist.
He said that, when in a bike lane, he uses the wiggle wag zig zag, and motorists slow down and move left. He doesn't care if they think he's nuts, so long as they pass with a safe margin.
---
Then he said that the technique is not for close passes, but to get the driver's attention and prevent the possibility of inadvertent drift.
---
So the question is, why do you recommend the wiggle waggle zig zag to others as a close-pass-ameliorater, and make no mention of the inadvertent drift, if for you the inadvertent drift is the real danger?
---
Wouln't it save time to just get a big pink flag on your bike, if you're that scared of traffic?
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
So the question is, why do you recommend the wiggle waggle zig zag to others as a close-pass-ameliorater, and make no mention of the inadvertent drift, if for you the inadvertent drift is the real danger?
In other words, in general, close passes are not only undesireable because of the general potential danger of the cyclist who suddenly swerves not much but enough (for which I'm personally not concerned about), but also because they indirectly indicate a motorist who is not showing any sign of being aware of the cyclist's presence.
So amerliorating close passes serves as a way to verify that you've been noticed (and thus serves to address the potential drift problem).
This is the last time I'm explaining this in this thread.