Who is the "expert?"
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Who is the "expert?"
Lots of mention has been made of cycling experts.
Lots of mention has been made by those who dispute that claim.
Who is right?
I think there is a lot of discussion to be made concerning accomodating cyclists in the U.S. After all, we have the internet, a sort of "Gutenburg's Press" of the modern age. Anyone can speak up, and that's good.
What say you?
(Is it possible we have truth on more than only one side?)
Lots of mention has been made by those who dispute that claim.
Who is right?
I think there is a lot of discussion to be made concerning accomodating cyclists in the U.S. After all, we have the internet, a sort of "Gutenburg's Press" of the modern age. Anyone can speak up, and that's good.
What say you?
(Is it possible we have truth on more than only one side?)
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#2
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Isn't the only One True expert John Forester? To think anything else would be superstition.
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The basic problem that I see is that traffic bicycling, partially by design and partially by circumstance, is mostly an ad hoc activity in terms of required and organized skill sets. Most people here, you, LBM, me, and most others have basically learned traffic cycling from experience with some guidance from books and the internet. If there is any measure of expertise, IMO, that measure would be experience. If you have been traffic cycling for a while and haven't given up from a perception of danger or intimidation, then you definitely have a skill set which can be equated with expertise.
The only problem with my view is that measuring expertise by using a measure of experience means that traffic cycling is basically an apprenticeship activity which automatically means that newer cyclists who might have good ideas cannot have those ideas correctly evaluated unless someone with more experience has explicitly tried and rejected the idea. In other words, there is a bunch of trails through the forest, but nobody has a full map.
Another problem with this situation is that the "experts" get too attached to their ideas (possibly a "not invented here" syndrome) and cannot give an accurate evaluation of the ideas of other "experts". It's a "I've got my trail through the forest and its the best thing since sliced bread so any other trail through the forest is necessarily flawed". I see a lot of this here, both in the descriptions of the skill set involved as well as in the philosophies used as a basis for advocacy.
The only problem with my view is that measuring expertise by using a measure of experience means that traffic cycling is basically an apprenticeship activity which automatically means that newer cyclists who might have good ideas cannot have those ideas correctly evaluated unless someone with more experience has explicitly tried and rejected the idea. In other words, there is a bunch of trails through the forest, but nobody has a full map.
Another problem with this situation is that the "experts" get too attached to their ideas (possibly a "not invented here" syndrome) and cannot give an accurate evaluation of the ideas of other "experts". It's a "I've got my trail through the forest and its the best thing since sliced bread so any other trail through the forest is necessarily flawed". I see a lot of this here, both in the descriptions of the skill set involved as well as in the philosophies used as a basis for advocacy.
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my feeling on one purported 'expert' is
with his basis for contemporary american road cycling based on a model of 1950's British roads and drivers, his notions of bike infrastructure rooted in early 1970's plans for accomodations, and his mistaken impression of american cyclists split into two camps only, the competant and the incompetant,
that guy is NOT up to date and NOT an expert, sorry.
A ranting, quixotic lunatic, perhaps, but an expert, hardly.
with his basis for contemporary american road cycling based on a model of 1950's British roads and drivers, his notions of bike infrastructure rooted in early 1970's plans for accomodations, and his mistaken impression of american cyclists split into two camps only, the competant and the incompetant,
that guy is NOT up to date and NOT an expert, sorry.
A ranting, quixotic lunatic, perhaps, but an expert, hardly.
Last edited by Bekologist; 07-20-07 at 11:37 PM.
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Lots of mention has been made of cycling experts.
Lots of mention has been made by those who dispute that claim.
Who is right?
I think there is a lot of discussion to be made concerning accomodating cyclists in the U.S. After all, we have the internet, a sort of "Gutenburg's Press" of the modern age. Anyone can speak up, and that's good.
What say you?
(Is it possible we have truth on more than only one side?)
Lots of mention has been made by those who dispute that claim.
Who is right?
I think there is a lot of discussion to be made concerning accomodating cyclists in the U.S. After all, we have the internet, a sort of "Gutenburg's Press" of the modern age. Anyone can speak up, and that's good.
What say you?
(Is it possible we have truth on more than only one side?)
There are allot of experts with convincing credentials.
Forrester would certainly be among them, but so would the people at LAB, Adventure Cycling, Rails to Trails Conservancy, Thunderhead Alliance, Bikes Belong Staff, it's required by law for state DOT's to have bicycle coordinators..they should count (but quality may vary), Oberstar and Blumenauer should make any short list, my city and two adjacent to mine have hiried different "expert" consulting firms to help with their bicycle planning, we have a local transit non-profit group with a full time bicycle specialist who I would consider an expert, and in my region we have a full time professional bicycle advocate who lobby's federal, state, and local government to influence cycling laws, grants, and regulation. All experts.
It's not requiried that experts agree with each other. I can't think of a single field where that's the case. Just ask the "experts" in National Security (Iraq), Astronomy (Pluto), Cancer (stem cells), or anything else. So, the "Who's Right" question seems out of place.
Scot
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This thread has me contemplating how different the various place Ive lived / commuted
have been. Now I can add a chapter on the WPB area of S. Florida which is by far the
most 'different' (??)than what Im used to.
All of these places have required a different style of riding than the one before.
An "Expert' is anyone who can adapt and whos quantum thought process would lead
them to believe that no two places are alike and no single type of riding or ideology will
encompass all of those different situations.
At the risk of sounding arrogant.....I am the only 'expert' I listen to.
have been. Now I can add a chapter on the WPB area of S. Florida which is by far the
most 'different' (??)than what Im used to.
All of these places have required a different style of riding than the one before.
An "Expert' is anyone who can adapt and whos quantum thought process would lead
them to believe that no two places are alike and no single type of riding or ideology will
encompass all of those different situations.
At the risk of sounding arrogant.....I am the only 'expert' I listen to.
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Sheldon Brown is an expert. other than that, I am an expert on my route.
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
Last edited by rando; 07-21-07 at 09:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
Who is right?
There is no way to answer the question unless it is made more specific.
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
Lots of mention has been made of cycling experts.
Lots of mention has been made by those who dispute that claim.
Lots of mention has been made by those who dispute that claim.
But if you're implying that VC-ism is a brand of cycling expertise, then I'd agree-- that's part of what VC-ism is-- VC-ism is indeed a brand-- a very poorly defined and poorly marketed brand, to be sure, but a brand nonetheless.
If you're further implying that some people have a very low opinion of the VC brand, I'd say you're right on.
If VC-ism were just a brand of expertise, then it might be possible to answer the question of whether VC-ism has any validity (whether VC-ism is right), but VC-ism is also a brand of political opinion (which requires value judgements), for which there is no right or wrong, only bias and preference.
In my personal opinion:
- VC-ism is very right about some things: most importantly, the fact that it's possible to ride a bicycle safely on the road and the assertion that, generally, the most effective way to get places on a bicycle is to ride on the road.
- VC-ism is very wrong about some things: the whole 'the only way to ride is VC' load of cow manure; the 'anyone who disagrees with us is stupid, mentally defective or otherwise a social deviant load of BS; and, especially, the belief that John Forester knows jack about psychology or social science. It should be obvious to anyone that, regardless of whatever expertise JF may have in the fields of bicycle physics and engineering (where his expertise is far from insignificant), that John Forester doesn't know squat about psychology and his understanding of social science is quite limited (and greatly influenced by his biases). The importance John Forester gives to his ridiculous cyclist inferiority phobia theory is laughable, as are Forester's Captain Queeg-like 'the world is against me/us' conspiracy theories.
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
I think there is a lot of discussion to be made concerning accomodating cyclists in the U.S. After all, we have the internet, a sort of "Gutenburg's Press" of the modern age. Anyone can speak up, and that's good.
What say you?
What say you?
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
(Is it possible we have truth on more than only one side?)
The VC brand of expertise has part of the truth. But it doesn't have the whole truth - not even close.
Last edited by JRA; 07-21-07 at 01:23 PM.
#10
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Exactly.
Given the first quote of yours above, the "Who's Right" question seems quite appropriate.
The variety and experience of cyclists on these forums makes this medium the perfect place to pose such a question. The answers that follow can only cause us to gather more understanding than before.
Given the first quote of yours above, the "Who's Right" question seems quite appropriate.
The variety and experience of cyclists on these forums makes this medium the perfect place to pose such a question. The answers that follow can only cause us to gather more understanding than before.
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One of the problems is expert in what kind of cycling:
Recreational trail riding
Mountain biking
Racing and Tri-athletes
Side path biking
Bike lane biking
Road (club) riding
BMX
Kids cycling (Safe Routes To School)
Utilitarian transportation cycling
Touring
(I am probably forgetting some groups.)
Outside the machine all these sub groups use, there is very little in common. So the first question is should the expert we recognize try and unite as many cycling groups as they can or should each group promote it’s own expert and cause at the expense of the other groups?
I will also mention that I tried to order the list according to popularity, which might have some barring on wither we should unite or fight for our own special interests.
Recreational trail riding
Mountain biking
Racing and Tri-athletes
Side path biking
Bike lane biking
Road (club) riding
BMX
Kids cycling (Safe Routes To School)
Utilitarian transportation cycling
Touring
(I am probably forgetting some groups.)
Outside the machine all these sub groups use, there is very little in common. So the first question is should the expert we recognize try and unite as many cycling groups as they can or should each group promote it’s own expert and cause at the expense of the other groups?
I will also mention that I tried to order the list according to popularity, which might have some barring on wither we should unite or fight for our own special interests.
#13
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But how?
Don't we all agree on many points?
Isn't it the same problem everyone faces in politics?
From what I've gathered in these forums, people unite on certain issues, but split on others.
Yet we all agree about the freedom to ride a bicycle for transportation, if we choose.
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A very crucial point.
But how?
Don't we all agree on many points?
Isn't it the same problem everyone faces in politics?
From what I've gathered in these forums, people unite on certain issues, but split on others.
Yet we all agree about the freedom to ride a bicycle for transportation, if we choose.
But how?
Don't we all agree on many points?
Isn't it the same problem everyone faces in politics?
From what I've gathered in these forums, people unite on certain issues, but split on others.
Yet we all agree about the freedom to ride a bicycle for transportation, if we choose.
Lets say we had some agreement on the bike lane point. The trail riders and Mt bikers would want bike lanes to the trails, the kids would want bike lanes to school, the rodies would want bike lanes on the secondary country roads, the transportation cyclist would want bike lanes on or paralleling major urban arterials and the touring cyclists would want bike lanes on the major highways connecting cities. Basically there is no overlap on the detail even if there is an agreement on a general point.
The general issue is freedom to ride a bicycle. I’ll even take that one step further by adding the freedom to ride your bicycle from your front door without requiring the use of a car to take it some place else that is nice to ride. This is similar too but not identical to using a bicycle for transportation.
Since I personally think the different groups should unite for the most effectiveness and therefore it is the responsibility of the bike advocates to make sure every group gets something. This is somewhat easy as trails are fairly expensive and signed bike routes and bike lanes are relatively cheap. So as long as you can get some money for the transportation side of things you can get a lot of mileage for the buck.
As in a lot of things it is how effectively one can wield public and political support.
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The basic problem that I see is that traffic bicycling, partially by design and partially by circumstance, is mostly an ad hoc activity in terms of required and organized skill sets. Most people here, you, LBM, me, and most others have basically learned traffic cycling from experience with some guidance from books and the internet. If there is any measure of expertise, IMO, that measure would be experience. If you have been traffic cycling for a while and haven't given up from a perception of danger or intimidation, then you definitely have a skill set which can be equated with expertise.
The only problem with my view is that measuring expertise by using a measure of experience means that traffic cycling is basically an apprenticeship activity which automatically means that newer cyclists who might have good ideas cannot have those ideas correctly evaluated unless someone with more experience has explicitly tried and rejected the idea. In other words, there is a bunch of trails through the forest, but nobody has a full map.
Another problem with this situation is that the "experts" get too attached to their ideas (possibly a "not invented here" syndrome) and cannot give an accurate evaluation of the ideas of other "experts". It's a "I've got my trail through the forest and its the best thing since sliced bread so any other trail through the forest is necessarily flawed". I see a lot of this here, both in the descriptions of the skill set involved as well as in the philosophies used as a basis for advocacy.
The only problem with my view is that measuring expertise by using a measure of experience means that traffic cycling is basically an apprenticeship activity which automatically means that newer cyclists who might have good ideas cannot have those ideas correctly evaluated unless someone with more experience has explicitly tried and rejected the idea. In other words, there is a bunch of trails through the forest, but nobody has a full map.
Another problem with this situation is that the "experts" get too attached to their ideas (possibly a "not invented here" syndrome) and cannot give an accurate evaluation of the ideas of other "experts". It's a "I've got my trail through the forest and its the best thing since sliced bread so any other trail through the forest is necessarily flawed". I see a lot of this here, both in the descriptions of the skill set involved as well as in the philosophies used as a basis for advocacy.
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my feeling on one purported 'expert' is
with his basis for contemporary american road cycling based on a model of 1950's British roads and drivers, his notions of bike infrastructure rooted in early 1970's plans for accomodations, and his mistaken impression of american cyclists split into two camps only, the competant and the incompetant,
that guy is NOT up to date and NOT an expert, sorry.
A ranting, quixotic lunatic, perhaps, but an expert, hardly.
with his basis for contemporary american road cycling based on a model of 1950's British roads and drivers, his notions of bike infrastructure rooted in early 1970's plans for accomodations, and his mistaken impression of american cyclists split into two camps only, the competant and the incompetant,
that guy is NOT up to date and NOT an expert, sorry.
A ranting, quixotic lunatic, perhaps, but an expert, hardly.
Not up to date? No facts there; you need to present new facts with which I am unfamiliar, or new opinions that should supersede mine.
By the way, two camps? Yes, indeed, the ranting Bekologist camp and that of more reasonable discussion.
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I'm not sure I understand what your post/question is. Do you mean "who is right" or "who are the experts". That question seems more in line with the opening remarks. I'm also assuming you mean "expert in cycling" from a traffic engineering, road, route, and trail design perspective and not "expert in cycling" in the way that Lance A, Sheldon Brown, Grant Peterson, or Cycle America are experts.
There are allot of experts with convincing credentials.
Forrester would certainly be among them, but so would the people at LAB, Adventure Cycling, Rails to Trails Conservancy, Thunderhead Alliance, Bikes Belong Staff, it's required by law for state DOT's to have bicycle coordinators..they should count (but quality may vary), Oberstar and Blumenauer should make any short list, my city and two adjacent to mine have hiried different "expert" consulting firms to help with their bicycle planning, we have a local transit non-profit group with a full time bicycle specialist who I would consider an expert, and in my region we have a full time professional bicycle advocate who lobby's federal, state, and local government to influence cycling laws, grants, and regulation. All experts.
It's not requiried that experts agree with each other. I can't think of a single field where that's the case. Just ask the "experts" in National Security (Iraq), Astronomy (Pluto), Cancer (stem cells), or anything else. So, the "Who's Right" question seems out of place.
Scot
There are allot of experts with convincing credentials.
Forrester would certainly be among them, but so would the people at LAB, Adventure Cycling, Rails to Trails Conservancy, Thunderhead Alliance, Bikes Belong Staff, it's required by law for state DOT's to have bicycle coordinators..they should count (but quality may vary), Oberstar and Blumenauer should make any short list, my city and two adjacent to mine have hiried different "expert" consulting firms to help with their bicycle planning, we have a local transit non-profit group with a full time bicycle specialist who I would consider an expert, and in my region we have a full time professional bicycle advocate who lobby's federal, state, and local government to influence cycling laws, grants, and regulation. All experts.
It's not requiried that experts agree with each other. I can't think of a single field where that's the case. Just ask the "experts" in National Security (Iraq), Astronomy (Pluto), Cancer (stem cells), or anything else. So, the "Who's Right" question seems out of place.
Scot
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much snipped
If VC-ism were just a brand of expertise, then it might be possible to answer the question of whether VC-ism has any validity (whether VC-ism is right), but VC-ism is also a brand of political opinion (which requires value judgements), for which there is no right or wrong, only bias and preference.
In my personal opinion:
- VC-ism is very right about some things: most importantly, the fact that it's possible to ride a bicycle safely on the road and the assertion that, generally, the most effective way to get places on a bicycle is to ride on the road.
- VC-ism is very wrong about some things: the whole 'the only way to ride is VC' load of cow manure; the 'anyone who disagrees with us is stupid, mentally defective or otherwise a social deviant load of BS; and, especially, the belief that John Forester knows jack about psychology or social science. It should be obvious to anyone that, regardless of whatever expertise JF may have in the fields of bicycle physics and engineering (where his expertise is far from insignificant), that John Forester doesn't know squat about psychology and his understanding of social science is quite limited (and greatly influenced by his biases). The importance John Forester gives to his ridiculous cyclist inferiority phobia theory is laughable, as are Forester's Captain Queeg-like 'the world is against me/us' conspiracy theories.
The VC brand of expertise has part of the truth. But it doesn't have the whole truth - not even close.
JRA claims: "especially, the belief that John Forester knows jack about psychology or social science. It should be obvious to anyone ... that John Forester doesn't know squat about psychology and his understanding of social science is quite limited (and greatly influenced by his biases)." Well, bicycle advocates have for decades been tying themselves in psychological knots trying to justify their unyielding advocacy of the specific system that was specifically designed by motorists to make motoring more convenient, with the result that it discriminates against cyclists. My applications of psychology and social science to which you object have been to explain this paradoxically absurd behavior. So far as I know, my explanation is the only one that has been advanced to explain this paradoxically absurd behavior. JRA and the other people who object to this explanation do so not because it is inaccurate, but because it accurately describes the motives for their bikeway advocacy. Instead of advocating bikeways, people who care for the welfare of cyclists ought to be advocating vehicular cycling as the proper method and for governmental action to properly accommodate vehicular cyclists.
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In my book there are no "experts," but there are quite a few qualified "authorities." To me there's a difference.
Qualified by what? Experience and knowledge.
Some are more qualified than others.
Qualified by what? Experience and knowledge.
Some are more qualified than others.
Last edited by CommuterRun; 07-22-07 at 01:03 PM.
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Of course it is natural for people to advocate their own interests. Therefore, your statement carries little meaning. However, when considering bicycle transportation in American society, it is obvious to a well-informed person that, when considering the welfare of cyclists operating on the roadway, they should operate as drivers of vehicles. That is so obvious that many of you so operate. It is therefore also just as obvious that government and society should arrange their policies to properly accommodate such operation. However, it is plainly obvious that you bicycle advocates fail to consider the welfare of cyclists in your pursuit of some other goal, most probably reducing motoring, and oppose governmental and social action to do what is necessary to correct the defective policies that cause defective operation concerning bicycle transportation. A proper policy regarding bicycle transportation should be based on the welfare of cyclists, not on any other consideration.
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Of course it is natural for people to advocate their own interests. Therefore, your statement carries little meaning. However, when considering bicycle transportation in American society, it is obvious to a well-informed person that, when considering the welfare of cyclists operating on the roadway, they should operate as drivers of vehicles. That is so obvious that many of you so operate. It is therefore also just as obvious that government and society should arrange their policies to properly accommodate such operation. However, it is plainly obvious that you bicycle advocates fail to consider the welfare of cyclists in your pursuit of some other goal, most probably reducing motoring, and oppose governmental and social action to do what is necessary to correct the defective policies that cause defective operation concerning bicycle transportation. A proper policy regarding bicycle transportation should be based on the welfare of cyclists, not on any other consideration.
So when people like me bring up the question what about other groups that are over represented in the crash stats such as SUVs? The response is something like well they would be safer if they were driving an Audi and every kind of driver would benefit from a special driving safety course. On one hand you can’t disagree with that logic but on the other hand people are not trading in their SUVs for an Audi and no one is marketing a safety course to SUV owners. All your grandiose words fail to make one bit of difference to segments of the population that represent a significant portion of the bicycle crash statistics. One significant group in bicycle crash stats are kids and nothing you are doing is improving their welfare. Saying they should trade in their sidewalk riding habits for another style without any sort of empowerment is just empty talk and is not improving the welfare of cyclists.
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Originally Posted by john
However, it is plainly obvious that you bicycle advocates fail to consider the welfare of cyclists
#25
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In practice, expert is a relative term.