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Old 07-05-07, 12:43 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by genec
Interesting observation... I wonder if bike lanes should end with some sort of "bulb" forcing cyclists to move out at the intersections.
If they did, most bike lanes would be reduced to nothing. Not a completely bad idea as such
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Old 07-05-07, 12:58 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
the skew that shoulders are more vehicular seems vacous, rote repetition in the anti-accomdationalists...

why are shoulders more vehicular, joe? there is sometimes a bike lane, to the left of shoulders, with striping that moves bikes towards the center of the road, away from the curb, and are accomodated at major intersections by striping the bike lanes to the left of right hand turn lanes.
So what? I'd wager that most streets that have bike lanes do not have right turn only lanes. Even where bike lanes are striped to the left of a right turn only lane, there is still an area where cyclists are going straight and traffic is moving across the bike lane to turn right without any merge area. That is not vehicular.

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Originally Posted by Bekologist
shoulders are not as 'vehicular' as a bike lane, sorry. shoulders do nothing to emphasise bikes are legitimate road users. bike riders on the shoulders indicate more strongly that bikes are not bonafide road users, versus bike infrastructure that integrates bikes on the road to the left of the fog line.
Bike lanes legitimize cyclists' use of bike lanes which has nothing to do with whether or not a shoulder or a bike lane is vehicular (even if bike lanes did legitimize cyclists' use of the road). Shoulders do not suggest any special place for cyclists on the road that is supposed to be used as a default. Shoulders (paved ones, note that I've been assuming the shoulders we're discussing here are paved) give a slow moving cyclist an area to move over into to allow faster traffic to pass when the cyclist chooses to move over (at the discretion of the cyclist).

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Originally Posted by Bekologist
steve goodridge's comments in another thread about how he's perfectly content using shoulders of high speed roads, versus bike infrastructure, shows how far off base the anti-accomodationalist camp is in their 'message' that leaves bikes riding the shoulders of high speed roads, versus accomodations that provide on road lanes for bikes.

but hey, give me a wide shoulder and i'm riding in it. but recognize they are not as vehicular as a lane for bicycles.
I'll use a shoulder on a high speed road too to allow faster moving traffic to pass in between intersections, assuming there is not a passing lane provided. I will use a shoulder even if there is a passing lane if the traffic volume is high enough. If there is so little space in between intersections that I'd be spending way too much effort merging back and forth, I default to the right lane. With a bike lane striped to my right, I can guarantee you I'd receive far greater amounts of harassment even though my lane positioning is fully allowable (could be argued that it's suggested even) by the traffic code. I'm sure you'd ride in the bike lane the whole time though even on a road with 2 lanes in each direction and 70 intersections in 3 miles.
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Old 07-05-07, 01:29 PM   #28
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I have never met a motorist who did not understand that if I was signaling a left or in the process of merging toward at a place to turn left that I was well-within my rights to leave the bike lane or shoulder.

If I'm not heading for a left turn or otherwise signaling a need to leave the bike lane and am just will-nilly riding around in the middle of the road like a jerk, then that is understandably interpreted as boneheaded behavior on my part. And of course, where there is a lack of facilities I experience being treated like a bonehead even though I'm not doing anything wrong at all.

So the question is, do we go with the VC world view where we build roads so that every interaction with motorists is an exercise in being treated undeservedly as a bonehead, or do we give the cyclist some room so motorists just leave their armchair traffic cop schtick at home and let us ride in peace? After all, even the VCers will seek refuge in the shoulder.
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Old 07-05-07, 01:36 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by joejack951
So what? I'd wager that most streets that have bike lanes do not have right turn only lanes. Even where bike lanes are striped to the left of a right turn only lane, there is still an area where cyclists are going straight and traffic is moving across the bike lane to turn right without any merge area. That is not vehicular.
.
Don't make that wager in San Diego.

The bike lanes here on arterial roads all have ROTL with the BL being to the left of the turn lane. Of course the arterial roads here also have speed limits of 45 and 50MPH. All bike lanes dash and end before street intersections, but not before driveways. However, not all bike lanes are 5 feet wide or even 6 feet wide... and they seem to count the gutter pan as part of the width, and yes, bike lanes ARE placed next to parked cars.
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Old 07-05-07, 01:58 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
I have never met a motorist who did not understand that if I was signaling a left or in the process of merging toward at a place to turn left that I was well-within my rights to leave the bike lane or shoulder...
Go to Portland, the cops hand out tickets to cyclist for leaving the bike lane to make a left turn.
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Old 07-05-07, 02:06 PM   #31
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BTW speaking of 50MPH arterial roads... This road is not quite arterial at this location... but it is a 50MPH road.

This road is marked at 50MPH just back a touch from where this picture was taken:


This is a single lane going each way, with a bike lane running beside it, with angled parking for beach access... and motorists typically wait in the BL for parking to open up; motorists also merge on and off just about anywhere... for parking. Now tell me it makes sense to have this road marked with a 50MPH speed limit.

What "rocket scientist" traffic engineer thought that 50MPH was appropriate for this road??? AND WHY?

This is the kind of idiotic "auto-centric" thinking that leads to motorist/cyclist/pedestrian issues.
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Old 07-05-07, 02:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand
I missed that CB. What was the outcome?...
I have not seen any follow on post on the outcome. I am hopeful the Portland cyclist went to court and won, but do not know. Seems that would be the only way to get some education to the cops handing out these tickets. Assuming the judge is not as foolish as the cop. After all, Portland had an odd judge that declared a stick pressed against a bike wheel was more of a brake than a fixed rider using leg power to brake.
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Old 07-05-07, 04:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Go to Portland, the cops hand out tickets to cyclist for leaving the bike lane to make a left turn.
Better cycling and many more cyclists though. Man do you have a chip on your shoulder. How's Hawaii do'n?

Just so the rest of the folks on this forum know the story, Mr. CB HI has a hard-on for Portland because he cannot get involved enough with his own local bicycling advocacy efforts to stop them from blindly copying Portland's bicycle infrastructure. He doesn't like this, so instead of trying to change his little city, he's trying to smear Portland instead. Oddly enough, Portland's solutions seem to work for Portland. People like them, and cycling is on the rise in Portland. The rise in cycling correlates well with the advocacy efforts here to increase cycling infrastructure.

But Mr. CB doesn't like this, so he makes like we're some sort of cycling Nazi's here. In reality, a few tickets were given out several months ago, and all's been quiet before and since. He doesn't mention that most of the cyclists here ride at least partially vehicularly (as opposed to AZ's sidewalk cyclists), and there are thousands a day riding into the city center. See here for some sources.
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Old 07-05-07, 04:12 PM   #34
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I believe this was the outcome, or at least one of the outcomes, of the tickets for leaving the bike lane. There were only a handful of tickets written and it was a one time deal. I haven't heard of anyone getting a ticket for leaving the bike lane since last November.

EDIT: Digging around more, apparently there was another enforcement sting that went on about 4 months ago around some construction downtown. There were some tickets given out there for not using the bike lane. I don't know the outcome of this though. It was in response to complaints from the construction contractors.
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Old 07-05-07, 04:35 PM   #35
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Thanks for the links Brian. Quite interesting.

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Old 07-05-07, 05:12 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Better cycling and many more cyclists though. Man do you have a chip on your shoulder. How's Hawaii do'n?

Just so the rest of the folks on this forum know the story, Mr. CB HI has a hard-on for Portland...
I think bike lane hysteria is the apt description for Mr. CB HI's affliction. It's not just Portland that gets his motor running. He's still ranting this week on BF about something former NYC Mayor Ed Koch said about bike lanes over 20 years ago.

Edit: CB HI has not ranted about former NYC Mayor Koch's 20 year old comment about bike lanes. My error. It was somebody else with a burr up his rear ranting about bike lanes in cities that he knows nothing about.

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Old 07-05-07, 06:33 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Better cycling and many more cyclists though. Man do you have a chip on your shoulder. How's Hawaii do'n?

Just so the rest of the folks on this forum know the story, Mr. CB HI has a hard-on for Portland...
A hard-on, like, for this?

http://www.weather.com/weather/month...I0026?month=-1

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxcli...nav_undeclared
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Old 07-05-07, 07:54 PM   #38
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Oh yes Brian, when you cannot counter my points on the Portland data and other issues, just resort to the standard false characterizations.

Did you even notice my comment “I am hopeful the Portland cyclist went to court and won”?


I also note that at first you claimed that the tickets were a one time thing, but then had to promptly retract that because you found another link on a single blog showing your first statement to be false. Keep searching, there were at least 3 ticket sweeps that covered both bike lane BS and the brakes on fixed gear bike issue.

Note how even though the judge did find the cyclist not guilty, he made it very clear that he wanted to preserve the bike lane mandatory use law.

I have never claimed Portland is a bad place to ride. Stop claiming Portland is bike heaven with bad or manipulated data and I will stop commenting on that bad or manipulated data.

The only other issue I have had with a few of the folks from the northwest, has been how several of them have this attitude against cyclist who wear cycling specific shorts and jerseys.

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Old 07-05-07, 07:55 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Better cycling and many more cyclists though. Man do you have a chip on your shoulder. How's Hawaii do'n?

Just so the rest of the folks on this forum know the story, Mr. CB HI has a hard-on for Portland because he cannot get involved enough with his own local bicycling advocacy efforts to stop them from blindly copying Portland's bicycle infrastructure. He doesn't like this, so instead of trying to change his little city, he's trying to smear Portland instead. Oddly enough, Portland's solutions seem to work for Portland. People like them, and cycling is on the rise in Portland. The rise in cycling correlates well with the advocacy efforts here to increase cycling infrastructure.

But Mr. CB doesn't like this, so he makes like we're some sort of cycling Nazi's here. In reality, a few tickets were given out several months ago, and all's been quiet before and since. He doesn't mention that most of the cyclists here ride at least partially vehicularly (as opposed to AZ's sidewalk cyclists), and there are thousands a day riding into the city center. See here for some sources.
This whole subthread makes me think that City of Atlanta's probably the cycling-friendly center of the universe. I've been cycling here since the late 1950's, have been cycling in a selfconciously vehicular fashion since the early 1970s, and police officers have never even paid much attention to me, much less ticketed me (inside or outside the hideous bike lanes which have been cropping up recently).
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Old 07-05-07, 08:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I think bike lane hysteria is the apt description for Mr. CB HI's affliction. It's not just Portland that gets his motor running. He's still ranting this week on BF about something former NYC Mayor Ed Koch said about bike lanes over 20 years ago.
I challenge you to prove this false statement by providing a link to any of my post which even mention NYC Mayor Ed Koch or his statement.

There never has been any such post from me.
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Old 07-05-07, 09:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by CB HI
You bike lane folks say you oppose mandatory use laws, but none are stepping up to the plate at the legislature to help end this discrimination! Anyone see any activity from LAB trying to do away with these bike lane laws - they also ignore the problem. (Maybe they will for sidepath laws but not for bike lane BS)
FWIW LAB provided written testimony when MD was trying to remove its mandatory use law.
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Old 07-05-07, 10:30 PM   #42
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FWIW LAB provided written testimony when MD was trying to remove its mandatory use law.
Was that a mandatory side path or bike lane law?

I know they have submitted letters when some areas have considered mandatory side path laws. If it was for a bike line law, I would like to get a copy of it if you have a local link.

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Old 07-06-07, 06:04 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by CB HI
I challenge you to prove this false statement by providing a link to any of my post which even mention NYC Mayor Ed Koch or his statement.

There never has been any such post from me.
You are right. I confused Daily Commute's endless rants on several lists about bike lane incidents in cities that he has no experience, with your endless rants about isolated bike lane incidents in cities that you have no experience. They sound the same note of hysteria and I was in error pinning this specific rant on you. Sorry for the mix up.

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Old 07-06-07, 08:58 AM   #45
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Look at that folks! We actually have a critical mass of cyclists on the streets! It's better than I thought. You know when the cops start paying attention, you have a goodly number of cyclists. At some point, the pendulum swings from cops looking the other way because it's not worth it to cops trying to enforce the laws on the books.

And Larry, yes, cops tend not to pay attention to all 12 of you bike commuters in Atlanta.

I know, I know, VC isn't about making cycling popular. But I kind of like it. And I gotta tell you, it really cuts down on the abuse from motorists. I can go weeks now without harrassment from drivers. Back a few years ago, it was a daily occurance.

Here's what I'm gonna do now. I'm going to ignore all the swipes at Portland from you all. You've pretty much proven its just envy.
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Old 07-06-07, 08:59 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Really?
...

...
11 tickets? Out of 10,000 commuters daily? Pretty good ratio if you ask me.

I mean, if HI or Atlanta's commuter cyclist population got 11 tickets in one month, that'd be, like, everyone.
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Old 07-06-07, 09:18 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI
Was that a mandatory side path or bike lane law?

I know they have submitted letters when some areas have considered mandatory side path laws. If it was for a bike line law, I would like to get a copy of it if you have a local link.
This isn't quite the specific law ... but it is a summary as understood by the local advocacy.

http://waba.org/areabiking/bikelaws.php

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Old 07-06-07, 12:26 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Was that a mandatory side path or bike lane law?

I know they have submitted letters when some areas have considered mandatory side path laws. If it was for a bike line law, I would like to get a copy of it if you have a local link.
MD has a mandatory bike lane and shoulder use law that we tried to repeal. Thanks to LAB’s help and testimony our bill passed the Senate with very few Senators opposing the bill despite MDOT’s opposition to the bill. But when we tried to get it to pass the house things got extremely hectic and crazy as it was getting near the end of our legislative season.

I probably should apologies as I did want to go back and get an electronic copy of LAB’s testimony to put up on Baltimore Spokes but that sort of fell through the cracks so I don’t have a link to the testimony, sorry.
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Old 07-06-07, 02:24 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You are right. I confused Daily Commute's endless rants on several lists about bike lane incidents in cities that he has no experience, with your endless rants about isolated bike lane incidents in cities that you have no experience. They sound the same note of hysteria and I was in error pinning this specific rant on you. Sorry for the mix up.
Actually I lived up in the Pacific Northwest for awhile. So you still remain offbase.
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Old 07-06-07, 02:34 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
11 tickets? Out of 10,000 commuters daily? Pretty good ratio if you ask me.

I mean, if HI or Atlanta's commuter cyclist population got 11 tickets in one month, that'd be, like, everyone.
But you said it was a one time thing. The links are just a sample that show it has been going on for some time. Interesting that you wish to ignore the cops being jerks towards cyclist, just to support some sort of Portland bike heaven image. Portland is a very nice place to ride, but it is not the bike heaven that many of you wish to convey.
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