Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5106718)
The bike lanes provide two simple things... they tell motorists that cyclists do indeed belong on the road, in spite of the freeway like speeds, and they help guide the motorist (stay between the lines) similar to all the other lines on the road.
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5106718)
The BL for cyclists provide a guideline for cyclists and offer a guideline on where to ride and give psychological comfort.
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5106718)
It has been long noted that BL on long intersectionless stretches of roadway are not a bad thing...
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5106718)
Beyond that, the BL help to reduce the ambiguity of a shared WOL... a motorist can clearly see a cyclist is leaving the right edge relative to the BL, when such movements are required.
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5106718)
BL are far from perfect, but then no line on the road offers anything more than guidance and psychological comfort and in this, BL are no different.
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Originally Posted by joejack951
(Post 5107210)
Just like a shoulder stripe would help keep motorists in line. Probably not too many occurences of motorists going off the side of the road on a straight, wide road though, at least not due to the lack of a stripe. As to telling motorists that cyclists belong on the road, how many motorists care if cyclists are riding out of their way regardless of what the pavement is striped as (so long as it's not a traffic lane)?
Originally Posted by joejack951
(Post 5107210)
Again, at the most dangerous point on that roadway, the bike lane goes away. Psychological comfort to most cyclists just means being on one side of a solid stripe. Again, no need to call it a bike lane.
Originally Posted by joejack951
(Post 5107210)
But no better than a similarly paved and maintained shoulder.
Again, no different from a shoulder stripe (please note that in my original post here I was not involving WOLs because a ~25 foot lane would cause some issues with ambiguity. So in the situation described by Six Jours, the bike lane stripe is no different than a shoulder stripe, right? |
What are the bike lanes providing in Six Jours case that would not be provided if all of the excessive lane width was just striped as a very wide shoulder? His situation is not "facilities working"; it's just an area where they paved a lot more width than they really needed to. He's even admitted that the bike lanes do nothing to help in negotiating the freeway on-ramps, arguably the most dangerous situation a cyclist might encounter. IMO, that traffic is "the most dangerous situation a cyclist encounters": same direction traffic at 30, 40, 50 mph faster than the cyclist. Anything that gets me a few feet farther away from that traffic is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. Other folks are welcome to ride around in front of that traffic all they want, I guess, but I'm not too impressed with folks that want to force me into the same. |
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5107374)
Except on roads with curbs, there are no shoulder stripes. A striped BL puts the cyclist on the "traveled way" and removes the ambiguity of whether a cyclist is on the road or not.
I personally like it when motorists are unsure if they have room to pass me without changing lanes in places where I know that they do. This causes them to slow down more, and if anything, pass me at greater distance. I appreciate the possible marketing value of using bike lane striping to make cyclists more aware of which roads have enough room for motorists to pass without changing lanes. WOLs aren't as obvious to the inexperienced cyclists' eye, and sometimes not to me either. However, I am also concerned about the problem of using bike lane stripes to increase the confidence/entitlement of motorists passing cyclists where there isn't much room, particularly when the stripes are added to substandard width (some local cyclists and politicians here are clamoring for 14' lanes to be subdivided with a bike lane stripe into 11/3 or 10/4 lanes) or where door zones, debris, and other roadside hazards exist. |
Originally Posted by sggoodri
(Post 5107904)
I'm not sure I understand. What's the difference between the traveled way and the road, and how does this apply to the difference between a wide outside through lane and a striped bike lane?
Originally Posted by sggoodri
(Post 5107904)
I personally like it when motorists are unsure if they have room to pass me without changing lanes in places where I know that they do. This causes them to slow down more, and if anything, pass me at greater distance.
Originally Posted by sggoodri
(Post 5107904)
I appreciate the possible marketing value of using bike lane striping to make cyclists more aware of which roads have enough room for motorists to pass without changing lanes. WOLs aren't as obvious to the inexperienced cyclists' eye, and sometimes not to me either. However, I am also concerned about the problem of using bike lane stripes to increase the confidence/entitlement of motorists passing cyclists where there isn't much room, particularly when the stripes are added to substandard width (some local cyclists and politicians here are clamoring for 14' lanes to be subdivided with a bike lane stripe into 11/3 or 10/4 lanes) or where door zones, debris, and other roadside hazards exist.
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Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5107980)
While that does happen, that slowing and the subsequent push pull of traffic as that slowing snakes down the line can cause accidents and tends to irritate motorists which doesn't do us cyclists any good over all.
I haven't heard of a cyclist in a WOL causing a slowing of traffic that resulted in a car-car collision. The speed reduction is usually not that sudden or drastic, compared to, say, slowing for a turn or red light. I have heard of a reckless motorist sideswiping another car where a cyclist was carefully using the center of a narrow lane while approaching a red light. The police officer who responded read the motorist the riot act. But this isn't related to WOLs versus bike lanes. I think that where roads become more freeway-like, with far fewer junctions/driveways and signals, motorist speed reductions might have more pronounced negative effects than on typical surface streets. |
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5107980)
The issue here is to not allow substandard bike lanes to be built. This is where advocates need to stand... in demanding that proper BL are the only standard, or that indications be given to the motoring public that cyclists can and will take the lane.
Where they advocate bike lanes stripes on wide, high-speed roads between junctions, I rarely say anthing more than to ask who will be in charge of sweeping them. |
Originally Posted by sggoodri
(Post 5108353)
I guess it depends on the situation - where I commute, that slowing of traffic means that the following cars also pass me at reduced speed, and it's also easier for me to negotiate a leftward merge in order to change lanes or avoid a pothole ahead.
I haven't heard of a cyclist in a WOL causing a slowing of traffic that resulted in a car-car collision. The speed reduction is usually not that sudden or drastic, compared to, say, slowing for a turn or red light. I have heard of a reckless motorist sideswiping another car where a cyclist was carefully using the center of a narrow lane while approaching a red light. The police officer who responded read the motorist the riot act. But this isn't related to WOLs versus bike lanes. I think that where roads become more freeway-like, with far fewer junctions/driveways and signals, motorist speed reductions might have more pronounced negative effects than on typical surface streets. If I had my preferences, it would be for lower speed roads... but as a cyclist my vote seems to count very little in that regard. |
Reading these last few posts has brought something back to mind. For me, one of the most annoying experiences I feel on the street is the sudden slowing down of a vehicle coming up behind me, and just following me along for 50 meters or so, until they get a grip and move on. To me, a motorist who feels the need to suddenly grind to a nearly zero speed and inch along behind me shows a lack of ability to assess road width and passing options. A self respecting motorist should be able to assess distances in a fraction of a second, not 30-60 seconds. A motorist who inches behind me is in effect saying : "oh my god, I'm so scared of hitting that poor cyclist, what I am to do?:eek:" Anyone who lives with that much fear and INABILITY is someone I want to keep clear of at all costs because there's nothing more dangerous than an insecure driver. I aim to stay away from any dumb driver, whether on 2 wheels or 4.
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and how, exactly, do you do that, tallard, (stay away from any dumb driver) when riding in front of said motorist? move off to the shoulder or into a well provided bike lane when one is available? and what if one is not, what do you do then?
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Originally Posted by tallard
(Post 5108636)
Reading these last few posts has brought something back to mind. For me, one of the most annoying experiences I feel on the street is the sudden slowing down of a vehicle coming up behind me, and just following me along for 50 meters or so, until they get a grip and move on. To me, a motorist who feels the need to suddenly grind to a nearly zero speed and inch along behind me shows a lack of ability to assess road width and passing options. A self respecting motorist should be able to assess distances in a fraction of a second, not 30-60 seconds. A motorist who inches behind me is in effect saying : "oh my god, I'm so scared of hitting that poor cyclist, what I am to do?:eek:" Anyone who lives with that much fear and INABILITY is someone I want to keep clear of at all costs because there's nothing more dangerous than an insecure driver. I aim to stay away from any dumb driver, whether on 2 wheels or 4.
To assume a driver slows down instead of passing a cyclist is done out of fear and inability is ridiculous. |
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
(Post 5109213)
To assume a driver slows down instead of passing a cyclist is done out of fear and inability is ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5107374)
Enough to yell "get on the sidewalk" or "get off the road" when BL do not exist on similar roads.
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5107374)
True, as I said, they are not perfect... and an unstriped WOL doesn't add anything in this regard either.
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5107374)
Except on roads with curbs, there are no shoulder stripes. A striped BL puts the cyclist on the "traveled way" and removes the ambiguity of whether a cyclist is on the road or not.
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Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 5107659)
So what's the difference between a bike lane a a wide, striped shoulder? <edit> I see the question has already been breached. And the answer seems to be, as I thought it would, semantics.
Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 5107659)
Do you find extra pavement upsetting?
My question for you is do you really think they needed to pave 15 feet of bike lane/shoulder on that road? Wouldn't 8 have been sufficient?
Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 5107659)
Bike lanes also don't prevent drunk driving. That they are not absolutely perfect in every concievable circumstance is a pretty weak argument against them -- especially when the counter proposal is "you should just ride in front of traffic".
Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 5107659)
IMO, that traffic is "the most dangerous situation a cyclist encounters": same direction traffic at 30, 40, 50 mph faster than the cyclist. Anything that gets me a few feet farther away from that traffic is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. Other folks are welcome to ride around in front of that traffic all they want, I guess, but I'm not too impressed with folks that want to force me into the same.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
(Post 5109213)
The driver may very well have quickly assessed road width and passing options, and slowed down precisely because he decided he could not pass you with a sufficiently wide buffer of say at least 3 feet.To assume a driver slows down instead of passing a cyclist is done out of fear and inability is ridiculous.
It's when I'm in Canada, on wide lanes, where speed limits are half the US speed limits, that drivers are like deer in headlights, you can hear their brain going: "can I do it" "oh I'm not sure" "I don't know how wide my car is" "what if I shake", and then after a minute or so of following me, they finally rack up the nerve to pass me, without going into the next lane, BECAUSE THERE IS PLENTY OF SPACE IN THE LANE WE HAPPEN TO BE SHARING. |
Ok, so you prefer to have some extra width on the roadway. Again, that says nothing about how well your bike lanes "work" which is my point. |
Originally Posted by joejack951
(Post 5109419)
I'm just as confused as Steve is with the point you are trying to make. An unstriped WOL is about the only way to truly convey to motorists that the cyclist is using part of the "traveled way." A bike lane looks a lot like a shoulder stripe, and vice versa, as my daily riding on roads with unuseable shoulders has shown.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
(Post 5110417)
Would photos of roads with shoulders help disabuse you of that particular bit of silliness?
And do the shoulders go the entire length of the road, or are they partial as is the case for most roads in CA. Compare and contrast the roads in Oregon. Start with hiway 1; it is a low number, easy for you to remember. |
Originally Posted by Bekologist
(Post 5109161)
and how, exactly, do you do that, tallard, (stay away from any dumb driver) when riding in front of said motorist? move off to the shoulder or into a well provided bike lane when one is available? and what if one is not, what do you do then?
As the saying goes, keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. To me in fast traffic a close call is within 6", too close is when the vehicle brushes my clothing. At slow traffic speed or stopped traffic, I require only an inch or two outside by handlebar tips. Oddly enough, I trust cars more than fellow cyclists in many regards as when I'm coming up behind another cyclist at speed, they don't know I'm coming and mostly cyclist's behaviors are quite erratic, which makes them difficult to overtake. If I need to overtake a pedestrian however (never on sidewalks), from 25' away I shout "coming through on your left" just as the etiquette of cross-country skiing dictates. I still slow down, it works well. |
Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
(Post 5111355)
That is utter nonsense.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
(Post 5111392)
The point, which you continue to not understand, is that your claim, "We don't have shoulders here in CA." is fallacious.
Perhaps if I wrote it out in crayon you might begin to understand... On the other hand, those states that do provide a nice wide shoulder may have occasionally a narrow section, but this is their exception, whereas the rule is wide shoulders. In California oddly enough the limited access freeways do have wide shoulders, but then cyclists are generally banned from the freeways. However exceptions exist in this case too, as certain limited areas of freeway do allow bicycle access... but again this is an exception. So the bottom line is that here and there in California, a hiway where a bicycle may travel, such as hiway 1 (or 94, or 54 or even parts of 101 and others) may have shoulders, generally one should not anticipate and expect such shoulders throughout the state as may be the case with other states which do provide nice wide PAVED shoulders as a matter of course. Now is that "crayon" clear enough for you? |
Originally Posted by genec
(Post 5110389)
Ah the view of the west coast verses the east coast... Really. We don't have shoulders here in CA. Quite often where the pavement ends, so does the road. Now this is hardly true in say Oregon, where generous shoulders are indeed wide bike lanes. But here in the "enlightened land" where the auto is king, you either have room or you don't, in the latter case you take the lane. Bike lanes, when they exist, tend to be the 4-5 feet to the right of a stripe, between that stripe and a curb, the latter which well defines the extent of the traveled way. To the right of that often there is a sidewalk... so the term shoulder hardly applies... and where it may apply, is often dirt. If it is pavement, it is driven upon.
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Originally Posted by tallard
(Post 5111311)
I'm not only a very expressive driver, I also pay very close attention to the language (verbal and non) or other road users. The only times I'm in the car's width is when I'm faster than the car, otherwise I am between the right tires and the line. I don't require three feet of buffer space. Sometimes I am glued to that line and sometimes I am within a foot of that line, but I NEVER ride farther than that.
As the saying goes, keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. To me in fast traffic a close call is within 6", too close is when the vehicle brushes my clothing. At slow traffic speed or stopped traffic, I require only an inch or two outside by handlebar tips. Oddly enough, I trust cars more than fellow cyclists in many regards as when I'm coming up behind another cyclist at speed, they don't know I'm coming and mostly cyclist's behaviors are quite erratic, which makes them difficult to overtake. If I need to overtake a pedestrian however (never on sidewalks), from 25' away I shout "coming through on your left" just as the etiquette of cross-country skiing dictates. I still slow down, it works well. Well that is clear enough. Now I can read your posts and know where you are coming from; a place just like HH, a completely different planet from me; and a very different perspective on risk. BTW, How is your translation of non verbal language emanating from groups of high speed drivers approaching from the rear in hours of darkness? |
Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 5091207)
Probably a nitpick, but I don't consider myself a bicycle "driver" and don't think the labels are important one way or another. I'm just a guy on a bicycle trying to enjoy myself and not get killed. And when it comes to riding in traffic, I really don't think it takes a whole lot of brain power to manage it. Yeah, a guy who is absolutely brand new to cycling has a learning curve, but I don't see that textbooks and classes are necessary here.
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Originally Posted by Six jours
(Post 5107659)
IMO, that traffic is "the most dangerous situation a cyclist encounters": same direction traffic at 30, 40, 50 mph faster than the cyclist. Anything that gets me a few feet farther away from that traffic is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. Other folks are welcome to ride around in front of that traffic all they want, I guess, but I'm not too impressed with folks that want to force me into the same.
But having said that, I'm more than happy riding in the extra road width (whether it's a bike lane, wide outside lane, or shoulder) on the long intersectionless sections without driveways that are common in our area. But my primary reason for doing so is for the convenience of overtaking drivers. |
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