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  1. #26
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I believe that the point is not to ridicule him as to his size, but to gain some insight about how much John Forester knows of the current road environment from the saddle of a bicycle. His lack of response forces one to consider "other factors" to determine if he is a current transportational cyclist who rides on a regular and frequent basis on modern roads with modern traffic levels and modern driver behavior.
    BINGO!

  2. #27
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCI_Brian View Post
    +1, and of course many people get additional responsibilities such as work and family as they get older. Bike commuting is my way to not "let myself go". But, for example, a one or two week long business trip can easily set me back.
    Sadly I found over time that bike commuting alone wasn't enough to keep me in the once proud shape I was in, as a student (and pedicab driver).

    That 14 mile round trip daily didn't hold a candle to the nearly 50mile daily round trip I used to do in college.

    I shudder to think what I may have become if I didn't even commute, however.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Sadly I found over time that bike commuting alone wasn't enough to keep me in the once proud shape I was in, as a student (and pedicab driver).

    That 14 mile round trip daily didn't hold a candle to the nearly 50mile daily round trip I used to do in college.

    I shudder to think what I may have become if I didn't even commute, however.
    I have found this too. Bicycle commuting doesn't hurt enough to build up the body, though it has a maintainance aspect. I am currently in the process of putting together a training program so I might eventually get back into competition, though this time in cycling rather than swimming. (It also means I might treat myself to a new bike as my dedicated road bike is 9 years old and an entry bike at that. But, if I spend money on a new, lighter bike, I need a way to get ride of excess weight on my body; hence the training program.)
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  4. #29
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    To all of you:

    In my cycling in San Diego, ranging from downtown to the eastern suburbs, but not to the north or to the south, I have found no need to change my cycling practices. They work just as well as ever.

  5. #30
    POWERCRANK addict markhr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    To all of you:

    In my cycling in San Diego, ranging from downtown to the eastern suburbs, but not to the north or to the south, I have found no need to change my cycling practices. They work just as well as ever.
    Funny that - they work for me in London too
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  6. #31
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    To all of you:

    In my cycling in San Diego, ranging from downtown to the eastern suburbs, but not to the north or to the south, I have found no need to change my cycling practices. They work just as well as ever.
    So to the north and south, you have to change your cycling practices?

  7. #32
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I believe that the point is not to ridicule him as to his size, but to gain some insight about how much John Forester knows of the current road environment from the saddle of a bicycle. His lack of response forces one to consider "other factors" to determine if he is a current transportational cyclist who rides on a regular and frequent basis on modern roads with modern traffic levels and modern driver behavior.
    Sounds reasonable, but who would have guessed with all this discussion about size? Oh yeah, I forgot, this is BikeForums.

  8. #33
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    john forester is pathetically out of touch with 21st century cycling.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  9. #34
    JRA
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    Wow. I'd always thought that Lemon Grove was a fictional place, kind of like Neptune, Califorinia and Balboa County (which, it seems, are both quite close to Lemon Grove).

    Considering John Forester's nutty psychological and social theories, the question I'd expect Veronica Mars to ask JF, should they ever meet in a parking lot on the campus of Hearst College (also fictional), would be her classic, "Where are you from? Brigadoon?"

    Although maybe the question should be changed to, "Where are you from, Lemon Grove?" and asked of anyone who believes that John Forester has a clue about either psychology or social science.
    Last edited by JRA; 07-28-07 at 06:32 AM.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    john forester is pathetically out of touch with 21st century cycling.
    Not at all, witness my responses to your fulminations. I strongly disagree with your views of cycling, based on my own experience and my own researches, but the fact that I have concluded that I should openly disagree shows that I am in touch with your mistaken views as well as cycling reality.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA View Post
    Wow. I'd always thought that Lemon Grove was a fictional place, kind of like Neptune, Califorinia and Balboa County (which, it seems, are both quite close to Lemon Grove).

    Considering John Forester's nutty psychological and social theories, the question I'd expect Veronica Mars to ask JF, should they ever meet in a parking lot on the campus of Hearst College (also fictional), would be her classic, "Where are you from? Brigadoon?"

    Although maybe the question should be changed to, "Where are you from, Lemon Grove?" and asked of anyone who believes that John Forester has a clue about either psychology or social science.
    My views in the field of social science are quite mainstream, but, of course, one has to admit that social science does comprise a rather wide field of views. You apparently believe a rather different set of opinions about social conditions than I do. I suggest that most of the opinions about social affairs that have been explicitly stated in this forum are those of a minority in social sciences, a minority strongly disapproving of the actual behavior of people and supportive of conspiratorial theories as to why people act in ways abhorrent to the writers of the opinions. As for my psychological hypothesis of the cyclist-inferiority superstition in its various strengths, it explains why bicycle advocates so vehemently advocate the precise system that was designed by motorists to denigrate cycling for their own convenience. That is an absurdity that cries out for explanation, and, so far, my psychological hypothesis is the only one that does so. Like it or lump it, or, if you are convinced that it is incorrect, then offer a better explanation for your own actions, although, to be accurate, I should have written excuse instead of explanation.

  12. #37
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    your 'psychological hypothesis' regarding bicyclists is hypothetical quackery, john.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  13. #38
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I don't dispute you not riding much anymore. I've asked about your utility bicycling, or trips to the store on your bike, and you've statd in this forum you don't do much.

    wether because of old age, ill fitness, or urban sprawl making trips to the store necessary for you to use an automobile is what is unclear. However, I don't fault you for being old!

    are bicycles not convienent to use for errands in Lemon Grove? is it urban sprawl (which you endorse by your complicity with the American Dream Coalition) that makes you unwilling to ride a bicycle for errands?

    do many people bicycle for transportation in Lemon Grove? I suspect actual, transportational, vehicular cyclists, (as opposed to john's hyperbole regarding his bicycling in the 1970's) that understand how to operate according to the rules of the road, take advantage of the bicycling infrastructure there.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #39
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    Some of the young folks have found this thread a "fun" place to mock the problems of us old folks. You think being "old" is a result of being "lazy"? Nope...it doesn't work that way.

    Sadly, the sort of shape and health someone is in at age 60, 70, or 80 has mostly to do with picking the right grandparents. Riding a bike is NOT a cure for getting old. Where are the guys who won the Tour de France fifty years ago? Well, most of them are dead. They picked really bad grandparents.

    But, I do find riding a bike makes being old a bit more enjoyable. A ten mile walk would leave me sore and tired...a ten mile bike ride makes me feel like Truman is president again.

  15. #40
    POWERCRANK addict markhr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    your 'psychological hypothesis' regarding bicyclists is hypothetical quackery, john.
    please explain why?
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  16. #41
    JRA
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    It's irrelevant whether JF still rides a bike or not-- or whether he's as thin as he used to be. You young whippersnappers may get the chance to be old geezers if you're lucky. When (if) any of you live to be 80, then you can talk.

    I used to have a 32 inch waist (and a resting heart rate below 40). Stuff happens (and I'm nowhere near 80). I have my disagreements with JF but it has nothing to do with what he weighs.

    Quote Originally Posted by John forester
    As for my psychological hypothesis of the cyclist-inferiority superstition in its various strengths, it explains why bicycle advocates so vehemently advocate the precise system that was designed by motorists to denigrate cycling for their own convenience. That is an absurdity that cries out for explanation, and, so far, my psychological hypothesis is the only one that does so.
    Oh, horse hockey! You're so full of it! You have no credentials in the field of psychology and you know it-- no credentials, as in zip, nada-- not even a degree from Hearst College.

    I don't buy your "system that was designed by motorists to denigrate cycling for their own convenience" load of bs, either. It's bicyclists who support facilities and motorists who oppose them, your crackpot fantasies about 'historical facts' and your fanciful conspiracy theories notwithstanding.

    The major absurdity that crys out for understanding is why you have a following at all.

    But, then, human gullibility is an historical fact.

    Many explanations have been given over the years as to why many cyclists favor the facilities John Forester has made a career of opposing, but JF quite obviously is deaf to the truth.

    I will give a personal opinion, nonetheless.

    A major reason that some disagreements with John Forester's ideas seem to be so emotional is, quite simply, that John Forester is such an arrogant, insulting, condescending know-it-all-- and always has been. The apparent emotionalism is due less to an imagined phobia (which John Forester invented because he is so conceited that he can't believe that any rational person would have the audacity to disagree with his crackpot ideas) and more to the abrasive style of which John Forester seems so proud.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Like it or lump it, or, if you are convinced that it is incorrect, then offer a better explanation for your own actions, although, to be accurate, I should have written excuse instead of explanation.
    I'm sure I have no idea what you mean when you allude to my own actions. Perhaps what you mean is your fantasies about what my beliefs are and what my actions have been. For the record, I have been a rules of the road traffic cyclist as a primary means of transportation for decades. I am neither a bike lane advocate nor what you call an anti-motorist and never have been. And I wouldn't call myself a facilities advocate, either. But I'm sure, in your world apparently ruled by pananoia, that you can somehow find a way to place me in one of the many groups (which seems to include just about everybody) that you consider the enemies of vehicular cycling.

    I can spot a crackpot a mile away. As the discoverer of cyclist inferiority phobia, the closest peer you have in the field of psychology is Wilhelm Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich), the discoverer of Orgonne Energy, but you can't be his peer because Reich actually had some credentials in the field of psychology and you have none.

    So, like it or lump it, it's my belief that the worst thing that has happened to rules of the road traffic cycling in my lifetime is it's association with your lunatic social and psychological theories.

    You crack me up.

    Seriously, dude, your theories are a joke.

    ----

    BTW, the main reason I read this forum is my fascination with cultism. While VC-ism is, by no stretch of the imagination, a cult, it is certainly cult-like in many ways. Witness VC-ism's fascination with an abrasive and arrogant, yet charismatic, 'founder of the faith.'

    It's textbook.

    Hey, I'll pit the "VC-ism is a cult" hypothesis against JF's "cyclist inferiority phobia explains why people diagree with John Forester" line of horse hockey any day. We could get a few people who actually have degrees in psychology and let them decide.
    Last edited by JRA; 07-28-07 at 07:25 PM.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  17. #42
    POWERCRANK addict markhr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA View Post
    It's irrelevant whether JF still rides a bike or not-- or whether he's as thin as he used to be. You young whippersnappers may get the chance to be old geezers if you're lucky. When (if) any of you live to be 80, then you can talk.

    I used to have a 32 inch waist (and a resting heart rate below 40). Stuff happens (and I'm nowhere near 80). I have my disagreements with JF but it has nothing to do with what he weighs.

    Oh, horse hockey! You're so full of it! You have no credentials in the field of psychology and you know it-- no credentials, as in zip, nada-- not even a degree from Hearst College.

    I don't buy your "system that was designed by motorists to denigrate cycling for their own convenience" load of bs, either. It's bicyclists who support facilities and motorists who oppose them, your crackpot fantasies about 'historical facts' and your fanciful conspiracy theories notwithstanding.

    The major absurdity that crys out for understanding is why you have a following at all.

    But, then, human gullibility is an historical fact.

    Many explanations have been given over the years as to why many cyclists favor the facilities John Forester has made a career of opposing, but JF quite obviously is deaf to the truth.

    I will give a personal opinion, nonetheless.

    A major reason that some disagreements with John Forester's ideas seem to be so emotional is, quite simply, that John Forester is such an arrogant, insulting, condescending know-it-all-- and always has been. The apparent emotionalism is due less to an imagined phobia (which John Forester invented because he is so conceited that he can't believe that any rational person would have the audacity to disagree with his crackpot ideas) and more to the abrasive style of which John Forester seems so proud.

    I'm sure I have no idea what you mean when you allude to my own actions. Perhaps what you mean is your fantasies about what my beliefs are and what my actions have been. For the record, I have been a rules of the road traffic cyclist as a primary means of transportation for decades. I am neither a bike lane advocate nor what you call an anti-motorist and never have been. And I wouldn't call myself a facilities advocate, either. But I'm sure, in your world apparently ruled by pananoia, that you can somehow find a way to place me in one of the many groups (which seems to include just about everybody) that you consider the enemies of vehicular cycling.

    I can spot a crackpot a mile away. As the discoverer of cyclist inferiority phobia, the closest peer you have in the field of psychology is William Reich, the discoverer of Orgonne Energy, but you can't be his peer because Reich actually had some credentials in the field of psychology and you have none.

    So, like it or lump it, it's my belief that the worst thing that has happened to rules of the road traffic cycling in my lifetime is it's association with your lunatic social and psychological theories.

    You crack me up.

    Seriously, dude, your theories are a joke.

    ----

    BTW, the main reason I read this forum is my fascination with cultism. While VC-ism is, by no stretch of the imagination, a cult, it is certainly cult-like in many ways. Witness VC-ism's fascination with an abrasive and arrogant, yet charismatic, 'founder of the faith.'

    It's textbook.

    Hey, I'll pit the "VC-ism is a cult" hypothesis against JF's "cyclist inferiority phobia explains why people diagree with John Forester" line of horse hockey any day. We could get a few people who actually have degrees in psychology and let them decide.
    instead of the personal attack on JF's ideas (they can be a little strange but ultimately they make sense and fit the problem) please explain an alternative theory/hypothesis/reason and/or why he's wrong
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  18. #43
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
    And I'm in the presence of a woefully frightened chicken little.

    How are you defining young?
    By your speech.
    No worries

  19. #44
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    john's wacky theories do not make sense. There are MANY bicyclists- that know full well how to ride 'according to the rules of the road' that understand bicycling infrastructure can be a benefit to bicycling in communities.

    I hypothise john foresters' claims of 'competant or incompetant' bicyclists is flawed and does NOT accurately represent the bicycling public.

    There are many, many bicyclists that 'understand how to bicycle according to the rules of the road'
    that will not ride all roads all the time.

    'inferiority complexes' have little to do with personal choice regarding safety while on a bicycle.

    vehicular bicycling is smart, aware bicycling, including use of bicycling infrastructure when appropriate without judgment or political analysis.


    remember, bicyclists like john can ride in bike lanes in cities like lemon grove as a vehicular bicyclist, riding according to the rules of the road for vehicles. slower traffic keep right....


    forestorite VCism- cult of personality, a politically polarizing ideologue that attempts to find fault with those that disagree with the foresterite POV.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 07-28-07 at 08:54 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #45
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA View Post
    BTW, the main reason I read this forum is my fascination with cultism. While VC-ism is, by no stretch of the imagination, a cult, it is certainly cult-like in many ways. Witness VC-ism's fascination with an abrasive and arrogant, yet charismatic, 'founder of the faith.'

    It's textbook.
    I have been tempted to make analogies between JF and L. Ron Hubbard, cyclist inferiority complex and engrams, evangelizing through books, intensive classes and specialized practitioners. And all the ills you suffer are because you are not a VC purist or clear.

    Summery of JF arguments:
    JF-Everyone suffers from cyclist inferiority complex.
    Others-But we disagree.
    JF-Thatís only because you suffer from cyclist inferiority complex.
    JF-See I am right and you are wrong.

    Summery of how kids argue:
    K1-If you step on a crack youíll break your mothers back.
    K2-Thatís not true.
    K1-You only say that because you donít care about your mother and you are a doo-doo head.
    K1-See I am right and you are wrong.
    Cycling Advocate
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    . . . o
    . . /L
    =()>()

  21. #46
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    john, you no longer ride for transportational purposes, is that correct? and I'm not putting you down for your age, I hope to be around as long as you have.

    but you no longer ride daily for transportation or utility bicycling, no longer ride to the store, is that correct? You've been seduced by the ease and conveinence of the automobile for how long now?

    when did you stop riding to the grocery store? 30 years ago? did you EVER ride to the grocery store?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #47
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    john forester is pathetically out of touch with 21st century cycling.
    "21st century cycling?"

    Dang, we're only in the first decade of the 21st century. Already you make it sound like a space odyssey or something.

    Say, aren't we supposed to have vacation homes on the moon by now?

    As far as I know, my legs still do all the work.
    No worries

  23. #48
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I stand by my statement.

    jf is out of touch, and he merits pity for his delusions.

    They sent him sacking from the League, dontchyaknow??? His delusions were interfering with advancing bicycling in America.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 07-28-07 at 09:11 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA View Post
    snips

    Oh, horse hockey! You're so full of it! You have no credentials in the field of psychology and you know it-- no credentials, as in zip, nada-- not even a degree from Hearst College.

    I don't buy your "system that was designed by motorists to denigrate cycling for their own convenience" load of bs, either. It's bicyclists who support facilities and motorists who oppose them, your crackpot fantasies about 'historical facts' and your fanciful conspiracy theories notwithstanding.

    The major absurdity that crys out for understanding is why you have a following at all.

    But, then, human gullibility is an historical fact.

    Many explanations have been given over the years as to why many cyclists favor the facilities John Forester has made a career of opposing, but JF quite obviously is deaf to the truth.

    I will give a personal opinion, nonetheless.

    A major reason that some disagreements with John Forester's ideas seem to be so emotional is, quite simply, that John Forester is such an arrogant, insulting, condescending know-it-all-- and always has been. The apparent emotionalism is due less to an imagined phobia (which John Forester invented because he is so conceited that he can't believe that any rational person would have the audacity to disagree with his crackpot ideas) and more to the abrasive style of which John Forester seems so proud.

    I'm sure I have no idea what you mean when you allude to my own actions. Perhaps what you mean is your fantasies about what my beliefs are and what my actions have been. For the record, I have been a rules of the road traffic cyclist as a primary means of transportation for decades. I am neither a bike lane advocate nor what you call an anti-motorist and never have been. And I wouldn't call myself a facilities advocate, either. But I'm sure, in your world apparently ruled by pananoia, that you can somehow find a way to place me in one of the many groups (which seems to include just about everybody) that you consider the enemies of vehicular cycling.

    I can spot a crackpot a mile away. As the discoverer of cyclist inferiority phobia, the closest peer you have in the field of psychology is Wilhelm Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich), the discoverer of Orgonne Energy, but you can't be his peer because Reich actually had some credentials in the field of psychology and you have none.

    So, like it or lump it, it's my belief that the worst thing that has happened to rules of the road traffic cycling in my lifetime is it's association with your lunatic social and psychological theories.

    You crack me up.

    Seriously, dude, your theories are a joke.

    ----

    BTW, the main reason I read this forum is my fascination with cultism. While VC-ism is, by no stretch of the imagination, a cult, it is certainly cult-like in many ways. Witness VC-ism's fascination with an abrasive and arrogant, yet charismatic, 'founder of the faith.'

    It's textbook.

    Hey, I'll pit the "VC-ism is a cult" hypothesis against JF's "cyclist inferiority phobia explains why people diagree with John Forester" line of horse hockey any day. We could get a few people who actually have degrees in psychology and let them decide.
    You say, JRA, that you are a vehicular cyclist, that you are neither a bikeway advocate nor an anti-motorist. However, you specifically say that you support bikeways, which rather denies your denial. If I have read more into your writing than you think you have put into it, I think that error is understandable considering your actual writings.

    You claim that my historical account, based primarily on my own personal experience but supported by that of many cycling organizations over the years, of the origins of bikeways is false: "I don't buy your "system that was designed by motorists to denigrate cycling for their own convenience" load of bs, either. ... your crackpot fantasies about 'historical facts' and your fanciful conspiracy theories notwithstanding" You advance no facts written at the time or about that time to support your claim. Without facts, your denial is worthless. You claim to be able to detect cultism; but your only evidence for that ability is the above denial, which is contrary to the historical record.

    The fact that you do advance is the present fact that many cyclists believe that bikeways were designed for their benefit. "It's bicyclists who support facilities and motorists who oppose them, your crackpot fantasies about 'historical facts' and your fanciful conspiracy theories notwithstanding." Certainly, it is the bicycle advocates who advocate bikeways; there's no doubt about that. However, there is every doubt about the claim that motorists oppose bikeways. The motoring interests largely enact the periodic national highway finance laws, that include money and requirements for bikeways. Motorists are willing to pay the bill because they see advantage in doing so. Some is public relations, of course, giving in to environmentalist demands, but other is just plain convenience for motorists. Where motorists oppose bikeways is where those bikeways reduce the convenience of motoring, which is not in many places.

    You criticize my psychological hypothesis because I do not have a degree in psychology. By the same standard, I presume that all of your opinions about cycling are completely illegitimate because you have no certificate in bicycle transportation? Opinions need to be evaluated on their content, not on the degrees held by their creators.

    While you base your argument on your claim that many cyclists support bikeways, you have not advanced any explanation of why they do so. Why should cyclists support the precise system which was designed to keep them under control as incompetent road users? You have not advanced any such reason, and those that others have advanced have been found insufficient. Why not apply your vaunted ability at detecting cults to cyclists' support of bikeways when there is no other reason than psychological for that support?

  25. #50
    POWERCRANK addict markhr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    ...While you base your argument on your claim that many cyclists support bikeways, you have not advanced any explanation of why they do so...
    Yes, even I think JF is abrasive and verbose but the man has a point, at least in this thread, I see no reasons why bike lanes should play a part in VC. So far JF's reasoning that people are either sh*t scared of cars and cycling in traffic or car drivers don't believe cyclists could cope with traffic safely therefore shouldn't be there, which seem the only reasonable explanation.

    So, if cyclists feel inferior and drivers feel they are inferior, it's a lose/lose situation and by "mutual inferiority" , the push towards bike lanes and off street cycling is made - as I see it anyway.

    The only responses so far were that he doesn't cycle enough, he's fat and you don't agree with him. There's not been a good counter argument. So, while I might expect too much of this thread, surely someone can either summarise or link a summary argument for bike lanes and off street cycling facilities.
    shameless POWERCRANK plug
    Recommended reading for all cyclists - Cyclecraft - Effective Cycling
    Condor Cycles - quite possibly the best bike shop in London
    Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights!

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