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  1. #1
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Can vehicular bicyclists choose a more mellow route?

    Question or two:

    IF so called "Vehicular bicyclists" are purportedly comfortable on any road allowed to bicycle travel,

    do ALL foresterite vehicular bicyclists choose the most direct route regardless of traffic volumes or road design?

    or are vehicular bicyclists free of dogmatism and can choose a comfortable, low traffic route that may meander and take longer to travel, but is more senic, pleasant, or lower travelled?

    Why?

    Do foresterites HAVE to choose the most direct route, regardless of road pleasantries or traffic speeds/volumes?

    is it comfort, enjoyment, or is it inferiority complexes? why would an everyday bicyclist that understands how to ride according to the rules of the road choose a more pleasant route? why would foresterite vehicular bicyclists?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #2
    POWERCRANK addict markhr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Question or two:

    IF so called "Vehicular bicyclists" are purportedly comfortable on any road allowed to bicycle travel,

    do ALL foresterite vehicular bicyclists choose the most direct route regardless of traffic volumes or road design?

    or are vehicular bicyclists free of dogmatism and can choose a comfortable, low traffic route that may meander and take longer to travel, but is more senic, pleasant, or lower travelled?

    Why?

    Do foresterites HAVE to choose the most direct route, regardless of road pleasantries or traffic speeds/volumes?

    is it comfort, enjoyment, or is it inferiority complexes? why would an everyday bicyclist that understands how to ride according to the rules of the road choose a more pleasant route? why would foresterite vehicular bicyclists?
    I had no problem choosing and cycling down the A40 a 6 lane elevated 50mph+ road using VC. That is, until, afetr a month, I found out that what I was doing was illegal as there is bicycle prohibition notice at the on ramp .

    Basically, I'll choose the direct route for commuting as it's pretty much always the fastest and, because of the wider, faster streets, is easier to navigate. Occasionally, if on a new route or if I'm not paying attention I'll get stuck in the wrong lane but simply indicating and waiting for a suitable gap in the next lane I can get across the traffic without having to resort to cycling on pavements(illegal in the UK) or using pedestrian crossings (sidewalk cyclists take note it's a PEDESTRIAN crossing ).

    The scenic and indirect routes are for special occasions or when I'm just cycling for the sake of cycling. Eithger way it's still possible, especially on quieter, rural roads or outside of rush hour in the city, to enjoy the scenery. Yes, it can be frustrating in traffic, and, as with any vehicle, you need to concentrate and be situationally aware but it's much safer than UK bike lanes and MUPs.
    shameless POWERCRANK plug
    Recommended reading for all cyclists - Cyclecraft - Effective Cycling
    Condor Cycles - quite possibly the best bike shop in London
    Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights!

  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Really? I usually choose a more senic route for my commute. it's more enjoyable and more senic.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #4
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    To work, I take the direct route which puts me "VCing" in the thick of traffic to get the body pumped up for work, but on the homeward commute I take a more scenic, longer route with less traffic volume to unwind and get in some extra miles.

  5. #5
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    hmm, and a vote for choosing the road less travelled on the way home.....
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  6. #6
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    hmm, and a vote for choosing the road less travelled on the way home.....
    Ahh, but in order to get to the roads less traveled, I have to VC some faster traffic roads, and ride some door hugging BLs.

  7. #7
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    ( I understand, ala jihad johhny's VCist notions of how to "ride my bike according to the rules of the road for vehicles", and I'm comfortable riding all types of roads, all the time, including interstates, high speed arterials and narrow highway speed roads.)

    I leave the house a little early to get a few extra miles in on the way to work, along a more enjoyable route sometimes. and I'm riding vc the whole way..... but does my choosing a more enjoyable, less travelled way reflect some deep seated inferiority complex?


    I'm confident my choosing a more enjoyable route reflects my desire to enjoy my commute...

    do vehicular cyclists HAVE to ride the most direct route, regardless of traffic volume or quality of road?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #8
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    I presume the original question is with respect to commuting or utility cycling with a specific destination, as opposed to a recreational ride that would be a loop.

    As to my choice of direct versus more scenic - it depends. For example, my commute is 18 miles via the most direct and quickest route, and my alternate route is 21 miles and hillier and has a 6 mile stretch with no traffic lights. I almost always take the direct route on the way in to work. The choice of route home depends on time constraints and whether or not I feel like riding the few extra hillier miles.

  9. #9
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    but does my choosing a more enjoyable, less travelled way reflect some deep seated inferiority complex?
    It doesn't!

  10. #10
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    ( I understand, ala jihad johhny's VCist notions of how to "ride my bike according to the rules of the road for vehicles", and I'm comfortable ride all types of roads, all the time, including interstates and narrow highway speed roads.)

    I leave the house a little early to get a few extra miles in on the way to work, along a more enjoyable route sometimes. and I'm riding vc the whole way..... but does my choosing a more enjoyable, less travelled way reflect some deep seated inferiority complex?


    I'm confident my choosing a more enjoyable route reflects my desire to enjoy my commute...

    do vehicular cyclists HAVE to ride the most direct route, regardless of traffic volume or quality of road?
    I do not have to take the most direct route, but the slower routes to work have many more intersections with stoplights/signs, making it harder on the brakes and drivetrain. On the route home, there a several more stops to make than on the route to work, but my route planning keeps them to the minimum as possible, making the commute more enjoyable.

  11. #11
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Your question is not exactly clear, but it has nothing to do with VC. You even imply later that you ride VC on all of your potential routes.

    A better question might be: What factors enter into your choice of commute routes.
    most direct
    fastest
    most scenic
    smoothest pavement
    least bus traffic
    fewest stop light
    smell of ocean spray
    most historic route

    Many of the choices may be combined, such as the most scenic route might also be the fastest and the route with the smootest pavement.

  12. #12
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    No, my question has a LOT to do with VC dogmatism.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  13. #13
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    VC does not dictate what route you should or must ride. It simply provides the means to safely ride a wider selection of routes. You are very confused.

  14. #14
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    OK, maybe in one case, the choice of route may be less VC. Such as the selection of the route with the smell of ocean spray, may result in some very un-VC distracted riding. Very small swim suits seem to cause such distractions in areas of ocean spray.

    But that is hardly the blame of VC methods.

  15. #15
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    no, not confused.

    hypothetical. two routes.

    route one , sixty mile per hour, heavy traffic, lots of curves, traffic lights. x number of miles.

    route two. twenty five mile per hour, light traffic, few traffic lights, good views and scenery. x miles plus five.

    do vehicular cyclists chose the most direct route, or does choosing a more pleasant, lower traffic route reflect the 'cyclist inferiority complex?'

    I'm just trying to get a read on this foresterite dogmatism. I'm concerned vehicular cyclists, in choosing a more pleasant route, might be suffering from the 'cyclist inferiority complex' tirelessly bandied about by johnny.

    what is the difference between a diehard vcist choosing a more pleasant route, versus an everyday bicyclist that understands the rules of the road?

    it's supposedly a personal choice for one, and a reflection of an inferiority complex by the other?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #16
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Low-traffic routes may smell better, sound better, and look better than busy roads. Vehicular cyclists like myself often find such routes enjoyable and may choose them if they have the time. I personally have invested scores of hours advocating improved street connectivity in fast-growing suburbs in order to facilitate the existence of pleasant alternate routes.

    This is irrelevant to vehicular cycling, however, unless one proposes alternate routes/facilities that require operating contrary to vehicular rules. In such cases, self-described vehicular cycling proponents will generally prefer to use the busy street in the normal vehicular manner.

  17. #17
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Bek,
    Your trying to create a straw man that does not exist.

    Again, VC does not dictate what route you should or must ride. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
    Does your hate really blind you to such a degree?

  18. #18
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    what is the difference between a diehard vcist choosing a more pleasant route, versus an everyday bicyclist that understands the rules of the road?

    it's supposedly a personal choice for one, and a reflection of an inferiority complex by the other?
    Who is making the claim that choosing a low-traffic route is the result of an inferiority complex? I have not seen that claim made by any vehicular cyclists.

    Most cycling miles in the USA are cycled in large part for pleasure. Therefore, many cyclists are interested in finding pleasant routes for both utility and recreational cycling. When I helped develop Cary's bike map and signed bike route system, we determined early on that the main purpose of defining bike routes was to identify routes that most cyclists find to be particularly pleasant for cycling.

    However, some people among the planning and engineering staff made the mistake of concluding that roads that were not part of the signed bike route system did not have to be designed to standards that would make them more pleasant, convenient, and/or safe for cycling. We quickly remedied that problem, by ensuring that the city adopted a policy of treating all roads as bicycle facilities and providing wide outside lanes on all collector and thoroughfare projects. Cary is also looking at detecting bicycles at traffic signals. These engineering projects are, not surprisingly, concentrated on roads that are not part of the bike route system, since such extra attention is most needed on the busiest roads, which are not the roads that most cyclists recommend to other pleasure cyclists as the most pleasant places to ride.

    So, cyclists should be treated as drivers of vehicles on both busy and low-traffic roads, but cyclists are often interested in scenic routes as much as convenient routes depending on their trip. For this reason, I pestered the planning department developing the bike map to mark street names on all of the useful through streets, not just the scenic signed bike routes and convenient arterials. I have also continuously pestered the Parks and Rec department to provide useful wayfinding signs at all greenway/greenway and greenway/roadway junctions, to make them more effective for travel.

  19. #19
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    vehicular cyclists CAN choose a more pleasant route, with lower traffic volumes, because of the quality of the riding, but ordinary cyclists suffer from an inferiority complex if they choose it?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #20
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Or maybe those cyclist fear riding certain roads because people like you have convinced them that such roads are too dangerous to ride on without bikelanes and other such nonsense.

    Some will not ride to work because it takes them too long. Why does it take them too long, because you have convinced them the direct route is too dangerous. If you would stop your scare tactics, then maybe more people would cycle to work, because they would not be afraid to take the most direct route.

  21. #21
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    'people like me' ? I suspect I talk, face to face, to more people about taking the lane in one month than you have your entire cycling career, CBHI.

    I'm still confused about the difference.

    vehicular cyclists can choose a more pleasant route, and it's free will, but a more typical, everyday, bulk of the cycling population cyclist that still operates according to the rules of the road - chooses a more pleasant route, and it's a manifestation of the jihad jhonny's vc 'cyclist inferiority' complex?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #22
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    why do bicyclists have to take the most direct, but unpleasant route to work if a longer route is more enjoyable?

    what brand of rabid vcism is that, CBHI?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  23. #23
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    why do bicyclists have to take the most direct, but unpleasant route to work if a longer route is more enjoyable?
    As Steve asked you and you ignored the question, I will ask you the same question.

    Who is making such a claim?
    Certainly not any VC proponent here.


    Some wonder if there is an imaginary forum debate raging within the confines of your mind, that the rest of us are not involved in, from which these false claims evolve.
    Last edited by CB HI; 07-29-07 at 04:17 AM.

  24. #24
    Conservative Hippie
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    A cyclist can take any route they want. VC just allows using higher traffic volume routes more safely.

  25. #25
    CRIKEY!!!!!!! Cyclaholic's Avatar
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    I take the fastest route on my commute which equates to 50 miles a day r/t. It just so happens that 40 of those miles are on segregated cycling facilities. It's like my own uninterrupted freeway where I can go as hard as I want as long as I want. The other 10 miles are very unpleasant and slow by comparison.

    The most direct route which avoids the segragated cycleways would add several miles and at least 30% more time to my commute. I tried it once to see what it was like, never again.
    There are 10 types of people in the world - the ones that can count in base 2, the ones that can't count in base 2, and the ones that didn't expect this to be in base 3.

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