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  1. #26
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    When I first came here a few members would take jabs at each other and it seemed more like watching a Don Rickles competition or something, not exactly inappropriate but not constructive either. But now insulting has gotten really out of hand ...
    I thought that this was the whole point of the VC subforum's creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    ... and I think a lot of people here should realize that when you initiate an insult it is a sign of a weak argument.

    Anyway it is really hard on the mods to draw a line on what is appropriate and what is not so it is up to us to give them feed back.

  2. #27
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    I thought that this was the whole point of the VC subforum's creation.
    To be a comedic act? You may be on to something.
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  3. #28
    Dubito ergo sum. patc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnamb View Post
    Where are the reports of personal insults? I check the moderator's board every day, and I'm not seeing them. You'd be surprised at how few reported posts we receive from this subforum. It makes us think participants are comfortable with the tone in here. There are over 80,000 members now, and we cannot be monitoring every single forum all the time, even if we tried. If you're not comfortable, and you're not reporting posts, we can't help. Help us help you.
    We were told that this sub-forum would basically be a free-for-all, so why should we report posts? I'm not trying to be an ass about this, I am just confused.

    I've also never felt it was all that clear on BF.net where the line is. I realize its always somewhat subjective, of course, but I see plenty of personal insults here and rarely see anything done about them, or the people posting them.

    I just get along better on heavily moderated professional/technical forums.

  4. #29
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patc View Post
    We were told that this sub-forum would basically be a free-for-all, so why should we report posts? I'm not trying to be an ass about this, I am just confused.

    I've also never felt it was all that clear on BF.net where the line is. I realize its always somewhat subjective, of course, but I see plenty of personal insults here and rarely see anything done about them, or the people posting them.

    I just get along better on heavily moderated professional/technical forums.
    That's mainly because of the posting volume. If you do report a post, we'll look at it and if it violates the guidelines, we will deal with it fairly. We don't play favorites, or at least try not to as much as that is possible for a human being.

    The other thing is, as Donna mentioned above, if no one complains, then it can be reasonably safely presumed that all are comfortable with the tone. The last thing we want is to become stiflers of free conversation, but if you do get some offensive stuff going, please do report it.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


    . “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche

    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant

  5. #30
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by THC
    BF is pretty cool. I started this thread to be a logic puzzle not a personality bashing contest. So maybe if I was more focused in my question.

    So does Government (group #1) creating laws to subjugate citizens (group #2) mean that laws are inherently bad for citizens (group #2)?

    So what do you think, yes, no? Can you explain your answer?
    No, and no, with the following qualification: No group can vote themselves into tyranny faster than scared free citizens

    Another aspect is that a law voted in for perfectly valid reasons can have unintended consequences, unforeseen because of a faulty cause/effect analysis.
    So if I can attempt to get this thread back on track.

    So while we do have some bad laws, the law making processes is mostly useful.

    I am looking to see if anyone can articulate why one separate group would look out for the benefit of another group. Why are not all laws for the sole benefit of those who created them (with the possible exception of the current federal administration.)
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  6. #31
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    oh, if jf's wacky theories held water, we'd collectively be against speed limits for automobiles. the desire to limit ones' travel is an inferiority complex against travelling as fast as the roads can carry a smart, capable driver.

    we'd also be against automoble insurance, because all drivers are competant and capable and need no underwriting to operate on the roads as drivers of vehicles.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  7. #32
    The Site Administrator: Currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes,please contact my assistnt admins for forum issues Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    So if I can attempt to get this thread back on track.

    So while we do have some bad laws, the law making processes is mostly useful.

    I am looking to see if anyone can articulate why one separate group would look out for the benefit of another group. Why are not all laws for the sole benefit of those who created them (with the possible exception of the current federal administration.)
    The best reason of all for one group to look out for the interests of the other is "Enlightened Self Interest". Another might be to work together toward the realization of where their respective goals meet, on the theory that better half than none.
    on light duty due to illness; please contact my assistants for forum issues. They are Siu Blue Wind, or CbadRider or the other 3 star folk. I am currently at home recovering from a couple of strokes. I am making good progress, happily.


    . “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”- Fredrick Nietzsche

    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." - Immanuel Kant

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    i think john forester has sadly turned into an automobile & congestion advocate.

    and he thinks most cyclists should not be riding on the streets. what an elitist.
    Bekologist, both of your statements are self-contradictory, another demonstration of what can reasonably be described as the intellectual problems of bicycle advocacy.

    If I were an automobile advocate, I would oppose congestion. Those who advocate congestion are the anti-motorists such as your bicycle advocating self.

    You have complained at great length that I advocate cycling on roads rather than cycling on bikeways. Now you choose to complain that I think that most cyclists should not be cycling on the streets.

    I understand that a person with the deep insight necessary to produce such seemingly paradoxical statements ought to be considered a near genius, but that level of genius does not become observable by we of lower intellects until it is explained to us in words of no more than five syllables.

  9. #34
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Tell us, dear Worshipful Ones, what on earth do John Forester's psychological theories have to do with the safe and legal aspect of riding one's bicycle according to the rules of the road, the part of vehicular cycling that most of us have no quarrel with at all? Why do you keep tossing back this part of vehicular cycling when JF's silly pseudo-psycho-babble comes up? Why not take a look at his psychological theories and discuss them straight up? Or are you afraid to look at it?

    And to the OP, the problem with your analogy is that while patriarchal culture is a real thing, John Forester's silly theories have no basis in reality so you can't make an accurate comparison. We could choose to oppose or support marriage because of its basis in patriarchal culture but we cannot argue that patriarchal culture isn't real, because it is.

    But JF's psychological theories? C'mon? This is utter nonsense. It's just a silly little insult wrapped in a tidy argument and wielded as a weapon against people he feels wronged him in the past. It's nothing but an expression of his grudge, and one that makes him look like a crackpot.
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  10. #35
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    I understand that a person with the deep insight necessary to produce such seemingly paradoxical statements ought to be considered a near genius, but that level of genius does not become observable by we of lower intellects until it is explained to us in words of no more than five syllables.
    +1/2 At least this is an entertaining insult. (But don’t read this as support for your points, that’s for you and Bek to work out.)
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  11. #36
    CRIKEY!!!!!!! Cyclaholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Stormcrowe View Post
    That's not a superstition! BF is Superior!

    OK Everyone, it's starting to get personal in here, let's dial it back a bit on personal references, thanks!
    I agree, I think we should definitely focus on the positives of John Forester, I'll make a start...

    The best about JF is that he isn't over here
    There are 10 types of people in the world - the ones that can count in base 2, the ones that can't count in base 2, and the ones that didn't expect this to be in base 3.

  12. #37
    littlecircles bmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post

    If I were an automobile advocate, I would oppose congestion.
    You are an automobile advocate, no?

    You are a speaker for the ADC, who very much think that the automobile is the greatest invention ever.*





    *edit - note the speaker's bureau is comprised of a highly diverse group of 12 old white men and 1 white woman, not really in keeping with the 'american dream' of all races, all creeds, and all classes intermingling in a melting pot to form a nation and live side by side in peace

  13. #38
    BF's Level 12 Wizard SingingSabre's Avatar
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    They're not psychological evaluations.

    They're psychoillogical evaluations.

    That is all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bklyn
    Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.

  14. #39
    hill hater nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Most cyclists are not the folks you might see at your local shop Bek. Most cyclists are the Walmart riding park riders and the weekend riders.

    Those on the streets actually represent a small proportion of all cyclists... now they may be the higher milage cyclists, but they do not represent a majority of "cyclists."

    Just looking at the people numbers here... not the actual miles ridden, nor the days ridden. This fact is why so many motorists consider bikes, "toys;" for them, that is what a bike is. This is also why bike paths are typically geared for 8-10 MPH.
    At 8 or 10 mph id feel like i was in a perpetual track stand. I keep a 17mph average on the ohio erie towpath trail which is very crowded most times. I get passed by as many people as i pass on a typical day. JF is a idiot in alot of ways his ideals are based off of his personal experience where he has road. For him it is 100% accurate truth for his area its 100% correct for his general area he is the leading expert. His ideas would likely get him killed where i lived before moving to clinton.

  15. #40
    JRA
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    Senior Member JRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingingSabre View Post
    They're not psychological evaluations.

    They're psychoillogical evaluations.
    Exactly. John Forester knows about as much about psychology as I know about particle physics.

    Forester couldn't understand how anyone could possibly disagree with his nutcase theories, so he invented a phobia to 'explain' it.

    See for yourself. Read Forester's 'proof' of the existance of cyclist inferiority complex. Show it to your neighborhood psychologist and see what they think.

    http://johnforester.com/Articles/Social/cycinf.htm

    Read Forester's other social theories.

    http://johnforester.com/Articles/social.htm

    Then come back and tell us all what a great social scientist Forester is.

    What a hoot! Crackpotism lives!

    Despite all his knowledge of cycling (which is extensive), Forester went off the deep end and entered a world of true lunacy.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  16. #41
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA View Post
    Forester went off the deep end and entered a world of true lunacy.
    IMO, surreal lunacy.

  17. #42
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    When I first came here a few members would take jabs at each other and it seemed more like watching a Don Rickles competition or something, not exactly inappropriate but not constructive either. But now insulting has gotten really out of hand and I think a lot of people here should realize that when you initiate an insult it is a sign of a weak argument.

    Anyway it is really hard on the mods to draw a line on what is appropriate and what is not so it is up to us to give them feed back.
    So you don't get Don Rickles either? Charlie Rose had an outstanding interview with him last week. One of his lines was, "if I was just slinging insults [as people who don't get him tend to think about him] I wouldn't be headlining in Vegas" (paraphrased from memory).

    There is a new book out about him, and a documentary coming out soon.

    The great comedians are great because they have something of substance to say or share. Certainly this is true of Rickles (and Carlin, Cosby, Robin Williams, Pryor, Carson, Lewis Black, etc.). Some have philosophic things to say, while others mostly comment on the humanity that we all share.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 09-04-07 at 06:33 PM.

  18. #43
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    I’m “trolling” to make a point on what consist of a logical argument and what does not. Just because some other group created something to control or subjugate another group does not in itself imply that it is evil.
    Your argument is the quintessential strawman.

    Forester has never argued that just because some other group created something to control or subjugate another group does in itself imply that it is evil.

    There are many individual arguments about bike lanes that, when combined, give reason to oppose them, but probably none of which is sufficient on its own.

    Developing a rational position with regard to a particular issue involves looking at all the pros and cons related to that issue, not just one of the cons, dismissing it as insufficient, and settling on the pro side by default.

  19. #44
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA View Post
    Despite all his knowledge of cycling (which is extensive), Forester went off the deep end and entered a world of true lunacy.
    Oh the irony!
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

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