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  1. #1
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    I wonder if these people SHOULD have had cyclist inferiority syndrome

    ...Because, after all, the fear of being mowed down from behind in broad daylight whilst riding properly is so "irrational" only a lunatic would have such fear.


    http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/225988.html

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    Mistadobalina AGGRO's Avatar
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    Read some of those comments. Scary that there are people behind the wheel that think like that.

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    The details of the article don't make it clear to me exactly what happened. They may have been hit from behind, but the article really doesn't say. Perhaps if there's followup information after the police report is filed someone could post it here.

    Two things: It's tragic. But since there are so few details in the article it isn't an indication of anything much with respect to cycling safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by larryfeltonj View Post
    The details of the article don't make it clear to me exactly what happened. They may have been hit from behind, but the article really doesn't say. Perhaps if there's followup information after the police report is filed someone could post it here.

    Two things: It's tragic. But since there are so few details in the article it isn't an indication of anything much with respect to cycling safety.
    "According to Grandview police, the driver of the pickup truck, a 48-year-old Grandview resident, also was northbound and struck the victims from behind. Police have been talking with the driver to try to determine what caused the accident.

    Police reports indicate the victims were properly in the right lane of the roadway and there is no indication, according to Grandview police, that the driver of the truck was under the influence of alcohol or drugs when the accident occurred. "


    http://www.lsjournal.com/articles/20...s/01deaths.txt

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGGRO View Post
    Read some of those comments. Scary that there are people behind the wheel that think like that.
    It's simple... the car ads and the design of the roads lead folks to think that they own the roads.

    It's time for Slow Down America campaigns... it's long past time for law enforcement to enforce speed laws. It's time for motorists to Take a Second Look. Quit depending on a glance to ensure the road or way is clear.

    Don't just look once, Take a Second Look.

    Slow Down, Drive Friendly, and Share the Road.

    The life you save could be your own.

    Sure perhaps the cyclists could have done something to make themselves more visible... but there are many more motorists than cyclists, and many more motorists deaths than cyclist deaths... motorists are their own worst enemy.

    Slow Down, Drive Friendly, and Share the Road.

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Regarding cyclist inferiority syndrome... remember Forester doesn't even recommend using a mirror.

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    The article says "right side of the right lane." Here's a link to a Google map image of the area. Looks like either a shoulder or a very wide outside lane. Doesn't seem like these cyclists were anywhere near the normal path of a motor vehicle.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...&t=h&z=18&om=1

  8. #8
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    RIP, Larry, RIP, Sierra.

    tragic. I agree with Gene, it is time for america to step up responsible driving campaigns.

    jowjack, I have no idea what you infer by your comment, but your 'analysis' doesn't jive much with your recommendations on other threads where, in wide outside lanes, bicyclists have no overarching need to be claiming the lane, instead following the rules of the road and riding right.

    Rest in peace, Larry and Sierra.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 08-10-07 at 11:20 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    jowjack, your 'analysis' doesn't jive much with your recommendations on other threads where, in wide outside lanes, bicyclists have no overarching need to be claiming the lane, instead following the rules of the road and riding right.
    And you are right, in general cyclists can right to the ride in between intersections without having much to worry about. Just like you tout staying on the shoulder on rural highways. However, I don't believe I've ever posted that staying to the far right in a WOL is something I recommend. The problem is with inattentive motorists and their tendency to drift coupled with their tendency to not be paying attention to what's not directly in front of them. However, in this forum, making suggestions for how cyclists might avoid this fate will get you mocked endlessly by members such as yourself.

    The guy who hit these cyclists had no malicious intent, just like other motorists who have done the same thing have had no ill will towards cyclists. That's why all the legislation in the world won't prevent this from happening again. That's why advocating ways of avoiding this fate is important in some small respect (given it's rarity).

  10. #10
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    sorry to bring this up in a thread about cyclist death threads, but now you suggest bicyclists ride in the middle of wide lanes and do the HH powerweave to and fro in front of all oncoming traffic, instead of holding a relatively consistent lane position, only moving left when necessary to avoid upcoming obstructions and intersection conflicts?

    joe....you've invested into HH's 'inadverdant drift' sophistry hook, line and sinker.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Rest in peace, Larry, Rest in peace, Sierra. I hope your passings were relatively painless. sorry to be arguing in a moment more appropriate for mourning.

    A tragedy.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    sorry to bring this up in a thread about cyclist death threads, but now you suggest bicyclists ride in the middle of wide lanes and do the HH powerweave to and fro in front of all oncoming traffic, instead of holding a relatively consistent lane position, only moving left when necessary to avoid upcoming obstructions and intersection conflicts?

    joe....you've invested into HH's 'inadverdant drift' sophistry hook, line and sinker.
    What else do you propose that would make a significant difference in the chances that any single cyclist will get inadvertently drifted into? I'll wait as long as you'd like to take for an answer.

  13. #13
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    daytime visible blinkies, high vis clothing. bike lanes are one part of the solution, banning hand held electronics while driving is another.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #14
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    And you are right, in general cyclists can right to the ride in between intersections without having much to worry about. Just like you tout staying on the shoulder on rural highways. However, I don't believe I've ever posted that staying to the far right in a WOL is something I recommend. The problem is with inattentive motorists and their tendency to drift coupled with their tendency to not be paying attention to what's not directly in front of them. However, in this forum, making suggestions for how cyclists might avoid this fate will get you mocked endlessly by members such as yourself.

    The guy who hit these cyclists had no malicious intent, just like other motorists who have done the same thing have had no ill will towards cyclists. That's why all the legislation in the world won't prevent this from happening again. That's why advocating ways of avoiding this fate is important in some small respect (given it's rarity).
    Part of the problem is not getting the whole picture because of driving too fast for the conditions. As motorists drive faster, a "tunnel vision" effect takes place, which requires scanning the roadway from side to side. Race car drivers do this and so do more experienced (rare) motorists, but the average joe tends to focus on the dashed line or the vehicle in front... or even the line on the side, which is one reason why that inattention blindness occurs. The drifting occurs due to focusing on something like the markers or side of the road. The sad fact is that many motorists drive only just barely well enough to avoid daily near misses... and as far as the general public is concerned, that is good enough.

    However good enough may not really be good enough, as illustrated by the number of motorist deaths that occur each year. But somehow those deaths are considered "acceptable" by the general public.

    Better driver education could help... but it is not considered politically acceptable. Better roads could help, but there is not enough funding for infrastructure (as evidenced by bridge failures). The alternative at this point seems to be passive restraint systems for drivers and passengers... and these do save lives... provided one is inside the car. And since the cost is picked up directly by the vehicle user... this absolves the government from providing better general solutions, just mandates and guidlines.

    Eventually this "passive restraint approach" will lead to autonomous drive vehicles... maybe not in my lifetime, but the studies are going on now, and some time in the not too distant future the "self parking" technology we see today will lead to the self driving cars of the future.

    Cars will not go away... some technology will be harnessed to allow vehicles of some sort to be used in spite of the decline of availablity of fossil fuel. Cars will become "smarter." That trend is well on the way.

  15. #15
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    daytime visible blinkies, high vis clothing. bike lanes are one part of the solution, banning hand held electronics while driving is another.
    All these things are great, but still depend on fallible humans. None of the above is going to help if a motorist falls asleep at the wheel or choses to drink and drive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Looks like either a shoulder or a very wide outside lane. Doesn't seem like these cyclists were anywhere near the normal path of a motor vehicle.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...&t=h&z=18&om=1
    We are sorry, but we don't have imagery at that zoom level for this region.

    Try zooming out for a broader look, or modify some other facts to fit your theories.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    We are sorry, but we don't have imagery at that zoom level for this region.

    Try zooming out for a broader look, or modify some other facts to fit your theories.
    "He said the wide lanes of the road make it safe for riders, as traffic should have plenty of room to drive around the bicyclists."

    (From your link:http://www.lsjournal.com/articles/20...s/01deaths.txt)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    daytime visible blinkies, high vis clothing. bike lanes are one part of the solution, banning hand held electronics while driving is another.
    What about radios? Cheeseburgers? Cranky kids? Billboards?

  19. #19
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    joe, you are making me sick.

    RIP, Larry and Sierra.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    "He said the wide lanes of the road make it safe for riders, as traffic should have plenty of room to drive around the bicyclists."
    What does that have to do with the "normal path of a motor vehicle"? They were, based on the police reports, in the right-hand lane. Why are you assuming vehicles don't drive there? Can you see unswept debris in the right-hand lane in the google imagery?


    This is all a re-tread of an old used-up argument anyways, because this study:

    http://www.toronto.ca/transportation...ion_type10.pdf

    Which I must have referenced a hundred times now, which found hit-from-behinds are more common downtown, where (gasp) roads are narrower.


    Now, I realise this study is based on my town, not yours. But can you provide me with any other study dealing with motorist overtaking accidents that shows anything at all you've suggested.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    What does that have to do with the "normal path of a motor vehicle"? They were, based on the police reports, in the right-hand lane. Why are you assuming vehicles don't drive there? Can you see unswept debris in the right-hand lane in the google imagery?
    Would you drive out there? Look at the other vehicles using the road. Are they driving that close to the edge of the road? What would cause this guy to decide to drive along the outside edge of the road, other than not paying attention to where he's going and drifting out there? If the road was as popular with cyclists as the article states, he probably knew that cyclists used that portion of the roadway so he'd very likely be avoiding it.

    Not that it should have to be said, but...I AM NOT BLAMING THE CYCLISTS. This tragic collision was clearly the motorist's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    This is all a re-tread of an old used-up argument anyways, because this study:

    http://www.toronto.ca/transportation...ion_type10.pdf

    Which I must have referenced a hundred times now, which found hit-from-behinds are more common downtown, where (gasp) roads are narrower.


    Now, I realise this study is based on my town, not yours. But can you provide me with any other study dealing with motorist overtaking accidents that shows anything at all you've suggested.
    Well, the study says this: Both parties were traveling the same direction. The motorist either brushed by or rear-ended the cyclist.

    Do you have the breakdown for the actual rear ending accidents? If you remove the brush-bys, where do the hit-from-behind's now stand?

  22. #22
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    The point is that rear end collissions like this DO happen and the cyclist has no way of protecting himself/herself. There was that case in Wisconsin not to long ago when a drunk rear ended three cyclists and pushed them off a bridge. They had no chance.

    MY point is that it is not irrational to fear riding on high speed, well travelled roads, or to take safer alternatives when available.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by skanking biker View Post
    The point is that rear end collissions like this DO happen and the cyclist has no way of protecting himself/herself. There was that case in Wisconsin not to long ago when a drunk rear ended three cyclists and pushed them off a bridge. They had no chance.
    I take issue with stating that there is no way cyclists can protect themselves. I think a cyclist can and should make the effort to make himself as noticeable to traffic approaching from behind as possible. I think driver distraction will be much less likely to occur when a motorist realizes that there are cyclists up ahead in the roadway.

    The bridge incident is somewhat irrelevant in that the cyclists were hit on the sidewalk, basically taking the "rational" approach to crossing the bridge.

    Quote Originally Posted by skanking biker View Post
    MY point is that it is not irrational to fear riding on high speed, well travelled roads, or to take safer alternatives when available.
    Who said that this was a high speed, well travelled road? From the sound of it, cyclists love this road. No one from the Bikeforums A&S forum is out there forcing these cyclists to use this road. Those cyclists obviously feel that this road is perfectly safe to cycle on. And I agree, but I would also ride it slightly differently than most would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Would you drive out there? Look at the other vehicles using the road. Are they driving that close to the edge of the road? What would cause this guy to decide to drive along the outside edge of the road, other than not paying attention to where he's going and drifting out there? If the road was as popular with cyclists as the article states, he probably knew that cyclists used that portion of the roadway so he'd very likely be avoiding it.
    Again, the google imagery doesn't even indicate where the edge of the road is. It could be a wide smooth shoulder, it could be gravel shoulder or broken glass.

    And locally here, drivers use the right side of the wide right lane often, for instance with whenever the road curves right, even slightly, or there is an upcoming right turn.

    And how is the fact that he "he probably knew that cyclists used that portion of the roadway so he'd very likely be avoiding it" reconcilable with the outcome here?

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Not that it should have to be said, but...I AM NOT BLAMING THE CYCLISTS. This tragic collision was clearly the motorist's fault.
    Noted. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm am suggesting that your so-called corrective measures of riding in the middle of the road, (and illegally so in most places) is not going to help.


    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post

    Well, the study says this: Both parties were traveling the same direction. The motorist either brushed by or rear-ended the cyclist.

    Do you have the breakdown for the actual rear ending accidents? If you remove the brush-bys, where do the hit-from-behind's now stand?
    So in answer to my question then, NO, you have no other studies, nothing at all.

    The Toronto study did not distinguish whether the cyclist was struck by the front, side panel, or rear-view mirror of the overtaking motor vehicle. I think that the study designers accurately decided that there was not enough information to pursue for this irrelevant line of inquiry.



    Joe, here's the real deal. I more or less ride in the way *you* advocate, seriously. I am almost always on the travelled portion of the road unless there is overtaking traffic. I do this mostly for speed benefits, but I think that it does SOMETIMES help get overtaking driver's attention.

    It's also nearly gotten me hit a few times in events I have mentioned in other threads


    But it remains just an opinion that I have, and is not based on any fact or study. So I keep this types of theories to myself and don't try to present them as possible solutions to fatal collisions that I know almost nothing about.

  25. #25
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skanking biker View Post
    The point is that rear end collissions like this DO happen and the cyclist has no way of protecting himself/herself. There was that case in Wisconsin not to long ago when a drunk rear ended three cyclists and pushed them off a bridge. They had no chance.

    MY point is that it is not irrational to fear riding on high speed, well travelled roads, or to take safer alternatives when available.
    The irrational label fits better when the fear leads to taking greater risks of collision (e.g. riding against traffic) or not cycling at all when the danger is very low and cycling is considered desirable.

    For instance, if I avoided driving over bridges because I was afraid they would collapse, and I insisted on only taking ferrys, people would think me irrational. But bridges do collapse. It's all about relative risk versus reward.

    Pleasant low-traffic routes can be very rewarding, but so can getting to work faster. To each his own.

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