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View Poll Results: Where would most likely ride on this road?

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  • To the right of the fog line stripe (in the shoulder).

    29 16.86%
  • On, or just to the right of, the fog line stripe.

    39 22.67%
  • On, or just to the left of, the fog line stripe.

    33 19.19%
  • Between the stripe and the right tire track.

    27 15.70%
  • Near the right tire track.

    24 13.95%
  • Between the right tire track and the center.

    7 4.07%
  • Near the center.

    4 2.33%
  • Between the center and the left tire track.

    0 0%
  • Near the left tire track.

    0 0%
  • Other (specify in post)

    9 5.23%
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  1. #1
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Where would you ride on this road?

    Assume you are stopped at the side of the road where that man is walking and are about to get back on your bike and continue riding away from the camera. Where would you most likely position yourself on this road?

    Last edited by Helmet Head; 08-20-07 at 04:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Conservative Hippie
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    Maybe I should have voted for "Near the Center," but my default road position would be, and is for a road like this, "Between the Right Tire Track and Center," biased toward the center, but flexible. Under no circumstances, that I can think of right off the top of my head, would I ride further to the right than the right tire track.

    I take that back, yes I can. I would pull off the right and stop, if an emergency vehicle running code
    were approaching from my 6.

    That paved shoulder ain't wide enough to even consider.

  3. #3
    genec genec's Avatar
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    On the right tire track. (strangely, not an available choice).

    The right tire track will be smoother than any other infrequently used spot on that road. The center may contain oil. I would go right for the right tire track.

  4. #4
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    where would you ride on THIS road?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  5. #5
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    And, where would you ride on THIS road?

    To the right of the fog line stripe (in the shoulder)?
    On, or just to the right of, the fog line stripe?
    On, or just to the left of, the fog line stripe?
    Between the stripe and the right tire track?
    Near the right tire track?
    Between the right tire track and the center?
    Near the center?
    Between the center and the left tire track?
    Near the left tire track?
    Other?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  6. #6
    Conservative Hippie
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    If you want answers to a different picture you should start a new thread, Bek. Unless of course, you're just trying to troll a derail into HH's thread.

  7. #7
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    On the right tire track. (strangely, not an available choice).

    The right tire track will be smoother than any other infrequently used spot on that road. The center may contain oil. I would go right for the right tire track.
    Ugh. I meant for "near the right tire track" to include "on the right tire track".

  8. #8
    Brusheda
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    ^ on the shoulder

  9. #9
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    looking at your original picture, it depends on traffic, head. speaking from experience, not the armchair, having ridden thousands of miles, tens of thousands of miles, on roads just like that one, ride in the lane or on the shoulder, depending on traffic conditions. No problems.

    Here's a picture taken on the fly, riding IN that wide of a shoulder, and no traffic. no problem.
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    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #10
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    ..just thought I'd post a feww pics of different shoulders, commuterrun, to show there is no static shoulder, or road position to take, while riding roads with shoulders.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  11. #11
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    a bicyclist can pull into a shoulder that wide with traffic overtaking. a bicyclist can ride in that wide of a shoulder with no traffic on a road.

    how wide IS that shoulder, head? are you even sure? That picture's perspective is a bit skewed. How wide is it?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #12
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    ..just thought I'd post a feww pics of different shoulders, commuterrun, to show there is no static shoulder, or road position to take, while riding roads with shoulders.
    Be sure to get on down to California where on many occasions the fog line runs right into the dirt. HH was generous showing that "shoulder..." although I certainly would not ride it.

  13. #13
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    looking at your original picture, it depends on traffic, head. speaking from experience, not the armchair, having ridden thousands of miles, tens of thousands of miles, on roads just like that one, ride in the lane or on the shoulder, depending on traffic conditions. No problems.

    Here's a picture taken on the fly, riding IN that wide of a shoulder, and no traffic. no problem.
    If you click on the photo in the OP, it will take you to the article about the cyclists hit from behind while riding single file in that shoulder. No problem.

  14. #14
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    If you click on the photo in the OP, it will take you to the article about the cyclists hit from behind while riding single file in that shoulder. No problem.
    From my reading of that story, they would've been hit no matter where they were positioned. Your point?
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  15. #15
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #16
    littlecircles bmike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?
    some of these threads start to sound like those math problems on standardized tests...

    cyclist a and cyclist b leave for the state capital from 100 miles away. there is no wind. there are no hills between their destination and their starting point. cyclist a rides VC, cyclist b adapts to her surroundings, staying safe. who arrives first?

    extra credit:
    if cyclist a has a 20 minute head start, how much faster will cyclist b have to ride in order to arrive at the same time?

    extra extra extra credit:
    if cyclist b is on a lugged steel bike, and cyclist a is on a carbon fiber bike, and they both travel the same speed, who will arrive first?

    extra extra credit:
    how much time will cyclist a be waiting for cyclist b at the finish if cyclist a wears his full team kit?



    seriously, the what if threads are funniest.
    i think the proper answer should be no answer at all - how can one tell from the photo what the other environmental cues are? is there a line of traffic behind you? a small hill just behind the walker's head? have we just pulled out of a parking lot? cross street? is there a chance for large wildlife to come running across the road? what is the shoulder made of? how does it smell there? how many cars have passed me in the last minute? 10? 20? hour?

    [edit: and thats not a slam on bek, as i think he gets to the heart of the matter here...]
    Last edited by bmike; 08-20-07 at 07:03 PM.

  17. #17
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    If you click on the photo in the OP, it will take you to the article about the cyclists hit from behind while riding single file in that shoulder. No problem.
    Another typical HH rigged poll in HH's Forester Brand quest for knowledge AKA: another device to provide the predetermined dogma driven correct answer.

  18. #18
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    From my reading of that story, they would've been hit no matter where they were positioned. Your point?
    I explained this in detail in another thread. Here it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SSP View Post
    Yeah, it would have been much better had they been riding centered in the lane...especially when the news article mentions the following:

    Police reports show Zimmerman was not intoxicated when the collision occurred, but he admitted to stooping over to reach for a jacket and paperwork that fell to the floor. He said he did not see the cyclists until he struck them, police documents show.

    Yet more HH wishful thinking.
    You missed my point.

    To think that the reason the driver did not notice the cyclists is because he was focussed on stuff that fell to the floor requires taking the situation completely out of the 40 second long context that should be considered.

    He stooped over to reach for a jacket and paperwork that fell to the floor moments before reaching the cyclists, yet he was unaware of their presence. Had they been riding centered in the lane, he would have been aware of their presence, and almost certainly not only have noticed them, but would have been slowing down and/or moving laterally to avoid hitting them, putting off the chore to reach for the stuff until after he had passed them.

    Further, by riding centered and using mirrors to regularly monitor to the rear, the cyclists would be in a position to recognize whether the driver had not noticed them and take appropriate action in the highly unlikely event that he would not have noticed them had they been clearly in his intended path up ahead.

    If they were going 15 and he was going 60, he was closing at 45 mph or 66 feet per second. That means he was only a half mile back 40 seconds prior to reach them. That's the point where they should have started trying to get his attention through lane position (most effective way to do that is to already be positioned "centerish" by default at that point). 20 seconds later he's still a quarter mile back and they might already be able to tell if he's going to slow down and/or move laterally to pass or not. That would be the time to continue moving laterally and maybe zig-zagging if confirmation of being noticed had not yet been obtained. 10 seconds later he's 10 seconds from reaching them and now about 660 feet back. That would be the time to turn around and look at him for a full second or two if confirmation of being noticed had not yet been obtained. Five seconds later , bailing into the dirt shoulder might be considered in the highly unlikely event that the driver now 330 feet back still was continuing at full speed without altering his course at all.

    None of that is possible if you're just riding along in the shoulder or bike lane, because the normal behavior for the driver, whether he noticed the cyclists or not, is the same: continue at full speed without altering course.

    I repeat, to think that the reason the driver did not notice the cyclists is because he was focussed on stuff that fell to the floor requires taking the situation completely out of the 40 second long context that should be considered.

    From the point at which the driver was only a half-mile behind the cyclist, a significant percentage of the 40-second time span that elapsed before he reached them, the driver had to have focused on the road in front of him in order to keep from driving into the oncoming lane or onto the dirt shoulder. Yet he failed to notice the cyclists up ahead in the shoulder. This has nothing to do with the stuff that fell and he later had to reach for. This is quintessential inattentional blindness. The cyclists up ahead, because they were to the right of the fog line, were irrelevant to him. His subsconscious mind had no reason to bring their presence to his attention. It's like they weren't even there. That's the problem, though had that stuff not fallen it would never have been an issue, because he would have driven right past them. But because the stuff fell, and he reached for it, he momentarily drifted onto the paved shoulder into the unnoticed cyclists.

    This is why I employ and advocate a default centerish position. If that's where the cyclists had been riding, odds are extremely high that all kinds of warning alarms would have been going off in the driver's mind, and he would have been fully aware of their presence up there, long before the stuff fell much less his decision to look away from the
    apparently empty road to pick them up. It's not like a deer that suddenly appears out of nowhere into the driver's path. By riding this way, they would have been up there for a considerable time, long enough for it to have been almost impossible for him to not notice them, impossible for him to subconsciously dismiss their presence as irrelevant.

  19. #19
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I ask again -

    where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?

    Personally, I'll slow down dump and logging trucks when there is good reason to (approaching narrow bridge decks) but it seems like head's fear of overtaking traffic and subsequent fearmongering is getting the better of him...
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #20
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    I explained this in detail in another thread. Here it is:
    Looks like a whole bunch of conjecture that primarily relies on the driver's ability to pay attention to where he's going. Again, from my reading of the story, and that picture of the road, I think you're grossly overestimating that ability.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    I'd most likely ride near the white line, on either side of it, to the right of it if the pavement is just as smooth as the rest of the road. Being anywhere on the pavement in that picture is just as noticable as sitting on the driver's lap.
    On my recumbent, I'm sitting at the same height as a driver of a Toyota Corolla. Riding behind a grup of riders, I like to observe which multi-colored jerseys are actually camouflaging the riders against the background ahead of me. Road position does not seem to matter, especially on curved roads. Some apparently brightly colored patterns are actually great camo in the city. Remember that this is just my observation.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

  22. #22
    Conservative Hippie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I ask again -

    where do you ride that road with 2 semi trucks approaching from opposite directions, at roughly the same closing distance, helmet head?

    Personally, I'll slow down dump and logging trucks when there is good reason to (approaching narrow bridge decks) but it seems like head's fear of overtaking traffic and subsequent fearmongering is getting the better of him...
    Personally, when on a road like this, I hold the same lane position as I described above for all motor vehicles. They can pass when the on-coming lane is clear.

  23. #23
    Je pose, donc je suis. gcl8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    I explained this in detail in another thread. Here it is:

    "Had they been riding centered in the lane, he would have been aware of their presence..."
    Often I look at Helmet Head's posts for ****s and giggles: it usually makes for good entertainment.

    But this one crosses the line: to take a serious collision like this and twist it into VC dogma, without any means to support the above statement (seriously, to state categorically that riding VC here would have made a difference is preposterous), and then to build a typical "poll with a not-so-hidden agenda" is just...disgusting. "You picked 'shoulder'? Loser! You're dead now!"

    Yes, it can be useful to discuss these things, even to discuss collisions post priori, but to sanctimoniously nearly gloat over the events described is pathetic. P-U-H-thetic.

    Thus, have I spoken.

  24. #24
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    I voted near the right tire track. In fact I'd ride in the right tire track.
    Not too much to say here

  25. #25
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcl8a View Post
    But this one crosses the line: to take a serious collision like this and twist it into VC dogma, without any means to support the above statement (seriously, to state categorically that riding VC here would have made a difference is preposterous), and then to build a typical "poll with a not-so-hidden agenda" is just...disgusting. "You picked 'shoulder'? Loser! You're dead now!"
    Nothing new for HH; ghoulish delight in conjuring VC "solutions" to fatal accidents, post accident, is his standard M.O.

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