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  1. #26
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    When I do errands less than 2mi RT I walk half the time. Always walk with errands less than 1mi RT.
    Of course nothing wrong with cycling those short trips, but I like some variety.

    One thing for sure though, whether walking or cycling 2mi or less I'm not going to need to eat these 250 calorie bars.

    Al

  2. #27
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Here is a bit of cycling advocacy done by the City of Tempe, AZ:

    http://media1.tempe.gov/transit/high/timtrafficcone.wmv

    Al

  3. #28
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    When I do errands less than 2mi RT I walk half the time. Always walk with errands less than 1mi RT.
    Of course nothing wrong with cycling those short trips, but I like some variety.

    One thing for sure though, whether walking or cycling 2mi or less I'm not going to need to eat these 250 calorie bars.

    Al
    yeah, gotta save those for a tough drive...

  4. #29
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    You state: "[I]f more people are cyclingcycling, to run errands, as identified in the video ... then naturally they will be motoring less.". Joseph Goebbels, great liar that he was, would have been utterly ashamed of the technical absurdity of this effort that you all appear to praise so much. The whole object of the video is to oppose motoring, with cycling mentioned as a minor sideline. Your words here indicate that not only are you bicycle advocates unable to understand the meaning of the words that you read, as mentioned before, you also cannot understand even a simple video. You make cycling into a dreary duty to be performed as part of the anti-motoring war, and regardless of the danger to those whom you affect.

    I don't see anyone here that's any more anti-motoring than you are apparently anti 'bicycle advocate'.

    I also don't see anything wrong with being 'anti-motoring' as you define it. Anyone with half a brain can see that motoring's day's are numbered. It's ridiculous to think that this perpetual growth in motor traffic can be sustained. Any efforts to reduce our dependance on it can only be a good thing.

    No-one's advocating an immediate removal of all private motor vehicles from the road overnight, but a gradual process of reduced dependance. Maybe you should update your thinking to this century - pro-motoring advocates such as yourself are going to find yourselves increasingly marginalised as time passes.
    Last edited by Allister; 10-22-07 at 05:46 PM.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  5. #30
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    That's an awesome ad. Great advocacy.

    I guess now both Trek and Clif Bar are seeing the light as to what might actually motivate people to ride their bikes. There are probably other companies, too.

    The one I work for is selling its products as helpful for carbon emissions because they make it so people don't have to drive or fly, but they can't work bike advocacy into it because you wouldn't have to ride a bike either.

    But anyway, the green message and the fat message are good ones. And the difference between a message like Clif and the one at ADC is that one is a message of hope and progress and encouragement to do something new, something good for yourself and your community, and the other is kind of a grouchy conservative message that is getting very tiresome and old and doesn't quite resonate as well in an era where we seem to be watching the arctic melt, the polar bears starve, the forests burn up, the water run out, and everybody in the US getting fat as a house.
    ~Diane
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  6. #31
    Senior Member John C. Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Cycling advocacy? You people call yourselves bicycle advocates, and this video portrays your bicycle advocacy views exactly. Nothing about cycling, all about anti-motoring. And inaccurate as always.
    John,

    There is a lot here about cycling in the video. It shows the disadvantages of a automobile too, and so they should be pointed out. We think of cars as these fun things that "free us" to do whatever we want. But they don't tell us about the death traps that they become to many (~40,000 people a year). Our church is contending right now with the death of the father of four kinds from an auto accident. The California wildfires show us that there is something really wrong with the way we plan our communities, and with the contributions that our lifestyles with automobiles have made to global warming.

    Originally, when cars were first developed, the auto industry (Mr. Ford) had to sell people on getting off their horses, and out of their wagons, and into a car. They did that by showing how much more efficient a car is at getting from one place to another, effortlessly.

    But that was in a day when people still walked, when roads were still not going everywhere you needed to go, and when bicycles, wagons and horses could go faster to those close-by places. Now, cars dominate, and roads go everywhere. People cannot bicycle or walk without being in danger of being run down by these vehicles we now call cars, the auto-mobile. It occurs to me that they were named this because they were "auto..." ..."matically" "mobile." But in being "automatically mobile," we lost some things. Many things were lost, actually. "Community" is one. We don't talk to each other, even our neighbors, now. Why? Well, we never see each other face-to-face. We can only wave as the people who should be in our lives, our neighbors, drive by. We still have our neighborhoods, where people live close to each other. But we have largely lost our sense of community, where people who do live close to each other share common values, and "communicate" with each other. The automatically mobile society, with the automobile at its center, is largely responsible for this loss of community values, and community communication.

    The bicycle can help bridge that gap. I ride my bike four days a week to and from work. I drive on Friday (staying out of the hospital, as riding on Fridays has landed me there twice before). I find that when I ride through a neighborhood, I can stop and talk to people. Last summer, I talked to some of the school kids who were walking home from school several afternoons. Yesterday, I met a fellew who was walking two black lab retriever puppies, and got my face licked by one welcoming puppy in its exuberant greeting. A few years back, I took my bicycle to my old childhood neighborhood, and found that one of my childhood friends now owned his parent's house, and that it was a museum to Coca Cola memorabilia. He had hundreds of posters, bottles, machines, nic nacs, etc. displayed in his house. I talked with Nicky for about an hour, then he told me that Mrs. Oaks was still in her house across the street. I went over, and the house still looked like it did some 45 years earlier, except that the willow tree Dale and I used to climb was much larger. This was my first time through the old neighborhood on a bicycle since the 1960s.

    I had gone through in a car several years before, but did not find a convenient place to park, and so just drove through. I saw my old house, but did not stop to talk to anyone. That's what automatic mobiles do to you--they isolate you from your surroundings into an artificial environment where not only communication is inhibited, but also the sights, sounds and smells of the area are replaced by what is piped in from outside.

    I own a 2005 Honda Pilot SUV. It has about 10,000 miles on it. I own a Rans Stratus recumbant bicycle. It has about 7800 miles on it. I use the Pilot to go places, and do things, that I cannot with the bicycle, such as scuba diving in Puget Sound, or backpacking into the Columbia Gorge. But I use the Stratus to do things I cannot with the Pilot, like watching the geese raise their young just off the bike path to work, or photograph a garter snake near the bike path, or talk to the neighborhood kids as a bike the wooden bike path near my home. Both have their place, but the bicycle should be predominant for those short trips, like the video shows.

    The other thing that being automatically mobile has contributed to is an epidemic of obesity, heart disease, and the other diseases associated with a lack of human mobility. Years ago, I was teaching some older folks who were in home health how to lift a fallen patient in a patient transfer course. I had two people helping one person to get up. But they were having extreme difficulty doing this. One person was behind a seated patient who had fallen, and the other was helping from the front, pulling on the person's arms as the rear person lifted from behind, under the patient's arms. They couldn't do it. I said, "Hold it, let's do a test." I had them stand up. They couldn't without pushing down on the ground with their arms. I wanted them to do a half-squat. That involved going down into a "seated" position with the legs bent 90 degrees, and then back up. I wanted them to do that three times. Easy right? No, they could not do it once. So I told them that if they couldn't lift their own body weight with their legs once, there was no way they could lift a patient from ground level. Their legs were not strong enough to lift their own body weight off the ground!

    This is what being automatically mobile has done to us. It has made us into a population of very weak people.

    Bicycling can foster better health, and that is what the video was showing. That health is not only personal, but global as well.

    John
    Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 10-26-07 at 12:31 AM. Reason: add text and context to the post
    John Ratliff

  7. #32
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff View Post
    John,
    The California wildfires show us that there is something really wrong with the way we plan our communities, and with the contributions that our lifestyles with automobiles have made to global warming.
    The energy required to sustain the lives of 6.6+ billion people on this small planet, regardless of what we use for personal transport is mainly at fault. And I don't see any way to remedy that, short of drastically reducing the human population. The fact that some tiny fraction of the population can manage to use walking or bicycles for some of their short-trip transportation is hardly relevant to this issue.

    And as far as the CA wildfires showing that there is something wrong with the way we plan our communities, that's silly. First, the wild fires would be burning out in the wild regardless of how the communities are planned. And regardless of how the communites are planned, at some point there has to be an edge between the wilderness where the wild fires start and spread, and where the communities, however they are planned, begin. And unless you build cinder block walls several hundred feet high at those edges (though other more practical methods can mitigate risk at the edges) , the hot/large embers are going to fly into the communities, regardless of how they are planned. And the buildings in the communites, regardless of how they are planned, are going to catch fire, unless you encase them in steel, cement, brick and similar noncombustible materials.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 10-26-07 at 05:56 PM.

  8. #33
    Senior Member John C. Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    The energy required to sustain the lives of 6.6+ billion people on this small planet, regardless of what we use for personal transport is mainly at fault. And I don't see any way to remedy that, short of drastically reducing the human population. The fact that some tiny fraction of the population can manage to use walking or bicycles for some of their short-trip transportation is hardly relevant to this issue.

    And as far as the CA wildfires showing that there is something wrong with the way we plan our communities, that's silly. First, the wild fires would be burning out in the wild regardless of how the communities are planned. And regardless of how the communites are planned, at some point there has to be an edge between the wilderness where the wild fires start and spread, and where the communities, however they are planned, begin. And unless you build cinder block walls several hundred feet high at those edges (though other more practical methods can mitigate risk at the edges) , the hot/large embers are going to fly into the communities, regardless of how they are planned. And the buildings in the communites, regardless of how they are planned, are going to catch fire, unless you encase them in steel, cement, brick and similar noncombustible materials.
    The problem here is short-term profits verses long-term planning. These conditions were known, and modeled, several years ago:

    http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...rniafires.html

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1024103856.htm

    The paper is titled Emissions pathways, climate change, and impacts on California by Christopher B. Field, et. al. Here is one quote from the June 23, 2004 paper:

    Fig. 3. Statewide change in cover of major vegetation types for 2020–2049 and 2070–2099, elative to simulated distributions for the 1961–1990 reference period. ASF, alpinesubalpine forest; ECF, evergreen conifer forest; MEF, mixed evergreen forest; MEW, mixed evergreen woodland; GRS, grassland; SHB, shrubland; DES, desert. Increasing temperatures drive the reduction in alpinesubalpine forest cover and cause mixed conifer forest to displace evergreen conifer forest in the Sierra Nevada Mountains and the North Coast. Mixed conifer forest in the South Coast expands because of increased humidity and reduced fire frequency.Because of drier conditions and increased fire frequency in inland locations, grassland displaces shrubland and woodland, particularly in the PCM simulations, whereas warmer and drier conditions under HadCM3 cause an expansion of desert cover in the southern Central Valley. (see: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abst...?view=abstract )
    Automobiles have allowed us to colonize, or develop communities, in areas previously inaccessible, and which had fires in previous years. Now, with drought (another predicted event), these areas were very vulnerable to fires. There are some places we should not build upon. This would include ridge tops with that great view, but which can be horrible places to be when a fire comes.

    As with the rest of the nation, my heart goes out to those who have lost so much in California. Their experience is not unique. This country has allowed the development of areas which should not be developed, such as the Tillamook Spit, and the City of Bay Ocean Park, a community on the Oregon coast in the early 1900s, and now does not exist. Here is that story:

    http://oregoncoast101.com/articles/g...om_a_dream.htm

    John
    John Ratliff

  9. #34
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    The energy required to sustain the lives of 6.6+ billion people on this small planet, regardless of what we use for personal transport is mainly at fault...

    The fact that some tiny fraction of the population can manage to use walking or bicycles for some of their short-trip transportation is hardly relevant to this issue.
    It's not a tiny fraction, it's the majority.

  10. #35
    pj7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    The energy required to sustain the lives of 6.6+ billion people on this small planet, regardless of what we use for personal transport is mainly at fault. And I don't see any way to remedy that, short of drastically reducing the human population. The fact that some tiny fraction of the population can manage to use walking or bicycles for some of their short-trip transportation is hardly relevant to this issue.

    And as far as the CA wildfires showing that there is something wrong with the way we plan our communities, that's silly. First, the wild fires would be burning out in the wild regardless of how the communities are planned. And regardless of how the communites are planned, at some point there has to be an edge between the wilderness where the wild fires start and spread, and where the communities, however they are planned, begin. And unless you build cinder block walls several hundred feet high at those edges (though other more practical methods can mitigate risk at the edges) , the hot/large embers are going to fly into the communities, regardless of how they are planned. And the buildings in the communites, regardless of how they are planned, are going to catch fire, unless you encase them in steel, cement, brick and similar noncombustible materials.
    So how wild are these fires now that 2 people have been arrested and another shot and killed during arson investigations of them?
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  11. #36
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i'm sorry, the insistence americans should perpetuate consuming 30 percent of the world's petroleum output becasue of our birthright, and continue to foster an auto-centric society because that's what we've been building up over the last fifty years is sheer folly.

    There's a global imperative to reduce greenhouse gas emmisions; for 5 percent of the worlds' citizens to consume 30 percent of the oil annually, to make 40 percent of trips of two miles or less, is pathetic. anyone, like jhon, that thinks the status quo should be perpetuated because that's the way it is, is NOT a bicycle or bicycling advocate. he's sucking tailpipe just like the rest of auto-addled america.

    The US needs to change our course regarding personal automobile use, not stay the course.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #37
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pj7 View Post
    So how wild are these fires now that 2 people have been arrested and another shot and killed during arson investigations of them?
    Whether the ignition of a wildfire is manmade or natural is irrelevant. What makes a wildfire wild is that it burns vegetation in wilderness, be it forest or brush, regardless of how it was started. I suppose a controlled burn in wilderness is not necessarily a wildfire, but it is if it gets out of control, even though it started as a controlled burn.

  13. #38
    pj7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Whether the ignition of a wildfire is manmade or natural is irrelevant. What makes a wildfire wild is that it burns vegetation in wilderness, be it forest or brush, regardless of how it was started. I suppose a controlled burn in wilderness is not necessarily a wildfire, but it is if it gets out of control, even though it started as a controlled burn.
    It's called rhetorical sarcasm, not meant to solicit a reply.
    No need to go a;; "Professor Head" on me here bub... or as some might see it, go pedantic.
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  14. #39
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pj7 View Post
    It's called rhetorical sarcasm, not meant to solicit a reply.
    No need to go a;; "Professor Head" on me here bub... or as some might see it, go pedantic.
    Sorry, I missed it. That's the problem with discussions done in writing rather than in person - all the subtleties normally conveyed in conversation by facial expression, body language and voice tone are lost.

  15. #40
    pj7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Sorry, I missed it. That's the problem with discussions done in writing rather than in person - all the subtleties normally conveyed in conversation by facial expression, body language and voice tone are lost.
    And don't forget smell!
    "Pull My Finger" wouldn't be nearly as fun without it.
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  16. #41
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    The problem with the fires in the West these days, and I'm including places like Idaho, are that our forests are not healthy like they once were and so the trees do not survive. The trees are stressed. One sign of the stress (not cause but sign) is the infestation of bark beetles. They are able to infest because the forest is stressed. There is less water for the forest as the warm season lengthens. The trees are drier. They ignite in a fire now and are killed when previously they used to survive. Then, because the climate has already changed, the trees do not grow back because their optimal growing conditions no longer exist. It's not as much a problem in the chaparral we have, but it's a growing concern in the West.

    Desertification is not a slow chipping away at the forest. It happens in an instant, in a catastrophic wildfire. I predict this is how we will lose the Amazon rain forest. In an instant in a single, enormous, catastrophic wildfire. It will not grow back.

    Positioning cycling advocacy as if it were strictly some kind of pathological opposition to cars is illogical. The problem is traffic congestion. Cycling is an answer. It's an answer in Southern California as much as it is in Mumbai where congestion is partially caused by bicycles. A bicycle simply takes up less space and uses less resources. It is the most energy efficient means of transport ever devised, actually. People of an engineering mindset, such as JF, ought to be singing its praises rather than praising the inefficient automobile that has made possible such delights as cardboard tomatoes and tasteless strawberries.
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  17. #42
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    Positioning cycling advocacy as if it were strictly some kind of pathological opposition to cars is illogical. The problem is traffic congestion. Cycling is an answer. It's an answer in Southern California as much as it is in Mumbai where congestion is partially caused by bicycles. A bicycle simply takes up less space and uses less resources. It is the most energy efficient means of transport ever devised, actually. People of an engineering mindset, such as JF, ought to be singing its praises rather than praising the inefficient automobile that has made possible such delights as cardboard tomatoes and tasteless strawberries.
    Amen, Diane and Bek. the problem is traffic congestion, the problem is global warming, the problem is being able to have a liveable world for our children and grandchildren. not to mention all the animal and plant life decimated by our nearsightedness. we need to wake up. and fast. cycling is part of that answer. maybe a tiny one, but a part. the time is past that we didn't need to think about these things, didn't need to act.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

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  18. #43
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Hmmmm a few Johns are posting at the moment.

    While I think that some of these other objectives are worthwhile and can be addressed somewhat with cycling, they are not synonymous with cycling advocacy. They can be used to garner more resources towards cycling and attract more cyclists, but I think that it can also be a distraction from basic cycling advocacy and result in some unrealistic (and undesirable by some reasonable standards) demands.

    I am no wild fire expert, but my understanding is that the severity of this year's wild fires is due to US policy regarding fighting all forest fires without the understanding that small fires are part of the natural cycle.

    I also think that there are a lot of environmental doomsayers that--naturally since I called them "doomsayers"--overstate the probability and consequences of various environmental "disasters". Mind you, I am not stating that there are no consequences. But that our response as a society should be proportional to the problem and in consideration of other societal problems such as poverty, health care, education, and so on.

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    I am no wild fire expert, but my understanding is that the severity of this year's wild fires is due to US policy regarding fighting all forest fires without the understanding that small fires are part of the natural cycle.
    That's the lesson from the big Yellowstone fire in the 80s, but I don't think it played much of a role in southern CA fires. On hot and ultra dry days, Santa Ana winds can drive fires toward the west very quickly, even through areas that completely burned just a few years earlier.

  20. #45
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    just wait for the mudslides.

    however, increasing the viability of bicycling in the USA, and vigororous support for bicycles in the transportation mix does not merit the criticism jhon forestor heaps onto it. what a gashuffer.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  21. #46
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Mudslides don't increase the viability of bicycling. They do increase the viability of hoofing it. I should know. I got trapped in my house for several days several years ago because of severe mudslides.

    After I ran out of food, and without any TV to occupy the time, no Internet back then, and classes at the university passing me by, I hoofed it off that god-forsaken mountain, sometimes nearly sinking up to my thigh in mud. A few times I was afraid I might get into serious trouble.

    I walked passed cars buried to their wheel wells in my apocolyptic journey back to civilization. It was months before they were able to repair the road.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

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