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  1. #1
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    shared lane/bike lane idea

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oH4u8Xop5c

    An interesting video showing driver behavior when bike lane lines are dropped completely near intersections.
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  2. #2
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Where is the bike lane stripe dropped? I saw a continuous line which seems to be up to the left turn.

    What I saw was motorists merging partly into the bike lane to make the left turn. A good thing.

    Even with the cyclist present, the taxi merged behind them.

    It looked like the cyclist was not making a left turn (I didn't see them thru the turn like I could see the other vehicles.) This is a case where the cyclist should not have been far left in the bike lane to avoid a possible left hook.

    Al

  3. #3
    Conservative Hippie
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    Looks to me like every car "weaving through the bike lane" was turning left at the next intersection. Just like the drivers are supposed to do when turning across a bike lane, depending on state or local ordinance.

  4. #4
    Crankenstein bmclaughlin807's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    Where is the bike lane stripe dropped? I saw a continuous line which seems to be up to the left turn.

    What I saw was motorists merging partly into the bike lane to make the left turn. A good thing.

    Even with the cyclist present, the taxi merged behind them.

    It looked like the cyclist was not making a left turn (I didn't see them thru the turn like I could see the other vehicles.) This is a case where the cyclist should not have been far left in the bike lane to avoid a possible left hook.

    Al
    I think the bike lane was dropped behind the point where the camera was positioned... so that approaching and crossing the intersection there was no clear 'lane' markings... So yes, some drivers drifted a little left of the line... others intentionally moved over to make the left turn at the next intersection.

    I also didn't see anything to complain about. *shrugs*
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  5. #5
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807 View Post
    I think the bike lane was dropped behind the point where the camera was positioned... so that approaching and crossing the intersection there was no clear 'lane' markings...
    Behind the 1st intersection? That would be grandly silly, both on the part of the bike lane striper/designer and on the part of anyone trying to make a point about the effect of removing BL stripes as at the first intersection a left turn is not permitted. We also can not see if the stripe really does end for any substantial distance before the 1st intersection, only a few frames are shown of the last 5' at the very start of the video.

    The whole point seems to be about the 2nd intersection in the distance where most left lane vehicles are making a left turn and the BL stripe appears to continue.

    Al

  6. #6
    Crankenstein bmclaughlin807's Avatar
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    Read the comments on the clip... it sounds like there's no painted lane before where the camera is positioned.

    Where a "shared" lane becomes a true bike lane, cars veer every which way on every light cycle, not understanding where they are supposed to be. "Shared" lanes might be useful, but they can't be on-again/off-again with real bike lanes.
    "There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson

  7. #7
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    OK, I actually ride that intersection every day, so I can comment directly about it.

    That block is actually OK, and cars, generally respect that bike lane. They're even OK, in the presence of bikes, with respecting the shared lane between Brodway and Lafayette. The problems are, as is demonstrated in the video, that the alternating one-way north-south sidestreets make for some sloppy lane positioning.

    There are way worse places in NYC.

    What I will say, though, is that tis block and Lafayette share a similar problem...NYC hs a mandatory BL law...but in the absence of BLs, the law is as close to the right as is practicable. But a lot of the newer BLs...both the one on Grand and the one on Lafayette included... are striped on the left. There's a little bit of a disconnect- as always, I end up what is most practical, as opposed to what's legal, strictly speaking.

  8. #8
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    To be clear....

    Grand west of Lafayette is a "shared lane." That is, a traffic lane with a double chevron/biker ideogram but NO lane stripes per se. East of Lafayette on grand, there is lane striping in the traditional sense.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laika View Post
    OK, I actually ride that intersection every day, so I can comment directly about it.

    That block is actually OK, and cars, generally respect that bike lane. They're even OK, in the presence of bikes, with respecting the shared lane between Brodway and Lafayette. The problems are, as is demonstrated in the video, that the alternating one-way north-south sidestreets make for some sloppy lane positioning.

    There are way worse places in NYC.

    What I will say, though, is that tis block and Lafayette share a similar problem...NYC hs a mandatory BL law...but in the absence of BLs, the law is as close to the right as is practicable. But a lot of the newer BLs...both the one on Grand and the one on Lafayette included... are striped on the left. There's a little bit of a disconnect- as always, I end up what is most practical, as opposed to what's legal, strictly speaking.
    I'm not sure about the law in Portland, but in NYC and many other big cities cyclists are allowed to ride as close as practicable to either side of one-ways.

    Left side bike lanes are ridiculous, imo. I have a real hard time understanding how anyone could think that's a good idea.

    R.

  10. #10
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    left side bike lanes can work fine on split boulevards. less turning traffic and no parked cars across median split, tree calmed boulevards. there's one in seattle along a split boulevard, a mile and a half long or so, that's the full width of a traffic lane. at intersections there's a merge zone, and the bike lane is then striped to the right of left turning traffic.

    this left hand bike lane does make sense.
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  11. #11
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Left side is fine, at least relative to the fineness of bike lanes.

    But there are two things about this design that are wrong:
    1. It is a door zone bike lane
    2. The stripe does not exist (as best as I can tell) before the 1st no-left turn intersection, but it does exist after the 1st intersection up until the 2nd one where left turns are possible. Either there should be no stripe between the 1st and 2nd to continue the no bike lane stripe implementation, or there should be a stripe before the 1st and the stripe between the 1st and 2nd should end (or become dashed) at some point before the possible left turn.

    Al

  12. #12
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    al, i thought that's exactly the scenario in the NYC bike lane- the bike lane ends before the first intersection, there's ambiguity in traffic crossing the near intersection as it rolls towards the continuation of the bike lane in the near distance.

    I wonder how much of a problem it is really? sounds like some posters here that live in NYC think it's less of a problem then some of the worrywarts posting here would have you believe.
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  13. #13
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    al, i thought that's exactly the scenario in the NYC bike lane- the bike lane ends before the first intersection, there's ambiguity in traffic crossing the near intersection as it rolls towards the continuation of the bike lane in the near distance.

    I wonder how much of a problem it is really? sounds like some posters here that live in NYC think it's less of a problem then some of the worrywarts posting here would have you believe.
    That is exactly the (probably minor) problem: The bike lane should not re-start after the 1st intersection.

    Al

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    Left side is fine, at least relative to the fineness of bike lanes.
    But there are two things about this design that are wrong:
    1. It is a door zone bike lane

    On the east (far) side of grand? Yes, it's a normal-for-NY oneway doorzone bike lane. on the near (west) side? See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    2. The stripe does not exist (as best as I can tell) before the 1st no-left turn intersection, but it does exist after the 1st intersection up until the 2nd one where left turns are possible. Either there should be no stripe between the 1st and 2nd to continue the no bike lane stripe implementation, or there should be a stripe before the 1st and the stripe between the 1st and 2nd should end (or become dashed) at some point before the possible left turn.

    Al
    There are two different kinds of lanes depicted in thevideo. The far side is, as you say, a striped lane. The near side is an unstriped shared lane. That is, it's marked with the double chevron/cyclist ideogram, but is not striped. Lanes like this use the paint to remind drivers that they need to share the (whole, presumably) lane with cyclists. There's a much longer lane like this on the Brooklyn leg of my commute home...5th avenue from Dean to President (i think) is a "shared" lane, not a bike lane per se...there's the ideograms and a lot of signage on posts, etc. From President all the way up to like 20th street, it's an actual striped bikelane.

    As an aside, I think NYC is now striping any damn sidestreet they can to get the numbers up...my current favorite is the nearly useless bikelane they've painted on Charlton between sixth and hudson... two blocks long, and on blocks that are nearly always permanently blocked by trucks loading and unloading, forcing all traffic to squeeze through however it can (including, sometimes, on the sidewalk!)

  15. #15
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Laika - I thought NYC put the bike lanes on the left to avoid double parkers on the right. Also, in Oregon, you are allowed to be as close as practicable to the left side of the road as well as the right side on one-way streets, is NY law different on this?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    left side bike lanes can work fine on split boulevards. less turning traffic and no parked cars across median split, tree calmed boulevards. there's one in seattle along a split boulevard, a mile and a half long or so, that's the full width of a traffic lane. at intersections there's a merge zone, and the bike lane is then striped to the right of left turning traffic.

    this left hand bike lane does make sense.
    Bek, I can ride in that, but I remain fundamentally uninspired by the concept of left side bike lane.

    There is at least one in downtown Seattle which I thought was really poorly conceived and I found no good reason to be in it, which has been my typical experience with left hand bike lanes in downtown areas. I won't lose any sleep over it though.

    Robert

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    Laika - I thought NYC put the bike lanes on the left to avoid double parkers on the right. Also, in Oregon, you are allowed to be as close as practicable to the left side of the road as well as the right side on one-way streets, is NY law different on this?
    The street depicted is a one-way...there are likely to be double-parkers on either side, and obviously you can't (or at least don't) get leftwards BLs in 2-way streets. I've always read NYC cycling law as being mandatory BL use/as close to the right as possible but admit I could be out of date or mistaken on that part.

  18. #18
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    OK, I was wrong!

    —34 RCNY 4-12(p)(3): Bicycles permitted on both sides of 4O-foot wide one-way roadways. Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway that carries traffic in one direction only and is at least 40 feet wide may ride as near as is practicable to either the left or the right hand curb or edge of such roadway, provided that bicycles are not prohibited from using said roadway.

    State law (as close to the right as is practicable) is superceded by city law in this case.

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