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  1. #1
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    The VC Relevance of Luddites

    I'm sure that my proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad http://www.newmilfordbike.com/Triad.htm which I drafted most of in 1990, wouldn't have been nearly as good if I'd drafted it on a computer. That's but one of the reasons that I proudly kept on using a manual typewriter until 1995, and deliberately did not waste time figuring out how to use any _internet_ computer (and when I did, it was a used one from an auction - the one that I'm still using) until about 2002. I proudly relegate, to about 20 notches down on my priority list, the bother and wastefulness of doing the necessary throwing of perfectly-good-working-order software/hardware into landfills to keep up with the antics of the Bill Gateses of the world. A typical example of this (which I've received ad hominem attacks for in, so far, the "What Happened to John Forester" and "Bike Maps and VC" threads - for my most succinct response to these attacks, see my VC-relevant question at the end of this post) is that although I succeeded in opening a few ultra-elitist "pdfs" in 2003 or thereabouts, it then became gradually more difficult and finally impossible to do so, and I decided right there that I have better things to do with my time than even trying to do such ultra-elitist things as open "pdfs". I'll just go out on a ride, thank you.

    And contrary to what the full-time mouse potatoes on this forum would have you believe, I'm not alone in having these simple-is-better preferences of how to live. The second-only-to-me transportational cyclist in my neighborhood, or was until he hit 82 and switched to walking last year or thereabouts, probably thinks of a "mouse" as one of those furry things that you stomp on when you see it in your barn. Another one of my neighbors, whose son is the current second-only-to-me transportational cyclist in the neighborhood, didn't even have a telephone until 1999 or thereabouts. Although he admittedly got internet access at the same time that he got the telephone, his style of doing so was correct: He saved landfill space by not trying to keep up with the admittedly-only-changing-at-a-more-reasonable-speed-than-Bill-Gates', antics of the Alexander Graham Bells of the world; he apparently decided in the _1960s_ to _leapfrog_ into the 21st century (in much the same way that I'm tentatively planning to wait until the next thing _after_ Excel comes along before I consider wastefully replacing this non-Excel-compatible computer). And the most-voluminously-writing one of my meatspace friends (who also happens to be one of the biggest transportational cyclists in _his_ town) one-upped me by proudly not getting internet access until 2005 or thereabouts. Indeed, until I spent the significant time that I just spent, on cyberepistolary gunfights with the kind of ultra-yuppies that BikeForums, in particular, is infested with, I thought that it was _obvious_ that the above simple-is-better types of considerations (i.e. limiting one's buying of junk that has planned obsolescence, etc.) were in approximately the same category as the types of considerations that caused many of us to become cyclists in the first place.

    So here's my _VC_-relevant question on this matter, for, most particularly but not limited to, the two (and it's interesting that both of them are from the cyclist-inferiority faction) most-extremist pdf-opening-capabilities-related cyberepistolary-gunfight opponents of mine (one of whom calls me a "simpleton" thereby demonstrating that it is he who is one, and the other one of whom is similarly bigoted and is therefore the last "web designer" that I'd ever patronize): If you were motoring, and saw a cyclist, would you say, "He's a simpleton for using such an outdated mode; don't bother keeping any on-ramps open for him"?
    Last edited by TheWheelman; 11-15-07 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Spelling correction; adding of a period; adding of an "etc."

  2. #2
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    good gosh, it's the

    Unabiker.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  3. #3
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    @TheWheelman
    I don't actually think it is that good. It is in that dead area between simplistic and complete. If you are sloganeering, then Forester's one liner is a much better slogan - a much better rallying cry for cyclists. If it is a guide to the operation of bicycles on the road, it is much too simple - you cannot just nail this to a tree and expect any passerby to be convinced that he should follow these edicts. Even when Forester layed out his 5 or 6 general rules of vehicular cycling, he followed them up with ~20 pages of pictures and writing explaining just what was meant by those 5 or 6 general rules and the reasons why those general rules work and should be followed.

    As to your rant about the internet and computers and stuff; well, suck it up. Either deal with the world as it changes, or carve out a spot to stand still and stop whining about how the rest of the world not standing still with you.

    And, by the way, learning to write at a keyboard, as opposed to pen and paper, is a learned behavior. For me, typing is more fluid than writing. I don't think about the keys I hit when I type; the words flow directly out of my brain and through my fingers. However, if you hold the attitudes towards technology as you do, then it is no wonder that you cannot type fluidly. You have kept yourself from learning how to be fluid on a computer, and now you whine about how others have this fluidity and you do not.

    There is no pride on being a "ludite". It's not like ludites have rejected technology. They've just, at some point along the historic line of developing technology, decided to stop adapting to further development. The ludites of today are the technologists of yesterday, no more, no less.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  4. #4
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    Re-read the pertinent question, Mr. Ratcliff:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    If you were motoring, and saw a cyclist, would you say, "He's a simpleton for using such an outdated mode; don't bother keeping any on-ramps open for him"?

  5. #5
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    good gosh, it's the

    Unabiker.
    And the thing that made me decide that any "study" put out by your buddy Prof. Pucher has no credibility, is the fact that he's likely the Chainabomber. Details on how the Susquehanna County Wheelmen Chainabomb Investigation turned him up as the chief suspect (and, incidentally, systematically exposed the farcities of the bikelane system of one of his Rutgers campuses in the process), can be found in the 2002-2003 Chainguard archives.

  6. #6
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    And, Bekologist must consider that the Unabomber was a real cyclist.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    @TheWheelman
    No. Neither would I call you a simpleton for merely sticking with an old computer. However, you chose to complain and whine about the state of the world and how the world should slow down and not make it necessary for you to need a new computer. For reason of all the angst and whining, I'd call you a simpleton. If all you did was maintain that you needed nothing more and you weren't bothered by the limited capabilities of your machine, then you are simply satisfied with your current technological level - my fiance is like that. But you choose to insult people who keep up a bit more with the technology; you think you are somehow better than them, and so you are a simpleton, unable to differentiate your needs and desires from the needs and desires of other people.

    And why does everyone keep calling me "Ratcliff" when my name is very clearly spelled out on top of each and every post I make here?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  8. #8
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    I'm sure that my proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad http://www.newmilfordbike.com/Triad.htm which I drafted most of in 1990, wouldn't have been nearly as good if I'd drafted it on a computer. That's but one of the reasons that I proudly kept on using a manual typewriter until 1995, and deliberately did not waste time figuring out how to use any _internet_ computer (and when I did, it was a used one from an auction - the one that I'm still using) until about 2002. I proudly relegate, to about 20 notches down on my priority list, the bother and wastefulness of doing the necessary throwing of perfectly-good-working-order software/hardware into landfills to keep up with the antics of the Bill Gateses of the world. A typical example of this (which I've received ad hominem attacks for in, so far, the "What Happened to John Forester" and "Bike Maps and VC" threads - for my most succinct response to these attacks, see my VC-relevant question at the end of this post) is that although I succeeded in opening a few ultra-elitist "pdfs" in 2003 or thereabouts, it then became gradually more difficult and finally impossible to do so, and I decided right there that I have better things to do with my time than even trying to do such ultra-elitist things as open "pdfs". I'll just go out on a ride, thank you.

    And contrary to what the full-time mouse potatoes on this forum would have you believe, I'm not alone in having these simple-is-better preferences of how to live. The second-only-to-me transportational cyclist in my neighborhood, or was until he hit 82 and switched to walking last year or thereabouts, probably thinks of a "mouse" as one of those furry things that you stomp on when you see it in your barn. Another one of my neighbors, whose son is the current second-only-to-me transportational cyclist in the neighborhood, didn't even have a telephone until 1999 or thereabouts. Although he admittedly got internet access at the same time that he got the telephone, his style of doing so was correct: He saved landfill space by not trying to keep up with the admittedly-only-changing-at-a-more-reasonable-speed-than-Bill-Gates', antics of the Alexander Graham Bells of the world; he apparently decided in the _1960s_ to _leapfrog_ into the 21st century (in much the same way that I'm tentatively planning to wait until the next thing _after_ Excel comes along before I consider wastefully replacing this non-Excel-compatible computer). And the most-voluminously-writing one of my meatspace friends (who also happens to be one of the biggest transportational cyclists in _his_ town) one-upped me by proudly not getting internet access until 2005 or thereabouts. Indeed, until I spent the significant time that I just spent, on cyberepistolary gunfights with the kind of ultra-yuppies that BikeForums, in particular, is infested with, I thought that it was _obvious_ that the above simple-is-better types of considerations (i.e. limiting one's buying of junk that has planned obsolescence, etc.) were in approximately the same category as the types of considerations that caused many of us to become cyclists in the first place.

    So here's my _VC_-relevant question on this matter, for, most particularly but not limited to, the two (and it's interesting that both of them are from the cyclist-inferiority faction) most-extremist pdf-opening-capabilities-related cyberepistolary-gunfight opponents of mine (one of whom calls me a "simpleton" thereby demonstrating that it is he who is one, and the other one of whom is similarly bigoted and is therefore the last "web designer" that I'd ever patronize): If you were motoring, and saw a cyclist, would you say, "He's a simpleton for using such an outdated mode; don't bother keeping any on-ramps open for him"?
    Dude ... I don't see how your choices have made things more simple. On the contrary, it appears to make your life more complicated. Technology is good for certain things. Assuming you still wish to communicate and interact with the outside world, keeping up with it makes life easier not harder. Consider a person who refused to use anything except for telegraphs or mailed letters when the telephone was getting common acceptance. Refusing the telephone when everyone else has a telephone would make life more difficult and complicated.

    Likewise, the ability to read the common format for a document (PDF) makes life simpler.

    Anyway, why is cycling outdated? It certainly is not outdated in a fashion similar to ASCII text files.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman
    ...
    And the most-voluminously-writing one of my meatspace friends (who also happens to be one of the biggest transportational cyclists in _his_ town) one-upped me by proudly not getting internet access until 2005 or thereabouts. ...
    I didn't catch this the first time, but it is a good demonstration of the hypocriticalness of a "luddite". How can someone who is proud to not have internet access, suddenly pony up and obtain internet access? He is proud he is a holdout who "lost" his "battle" with technology? Apparently, in 2005, he couldn't hold out any longer, right?

    My thinking on the subject: it's not practical to go chasing technology, but neither is it productive to draw an arbitrary line in the sand of progress with the intent of going no further.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  10. #10
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I didn't catch this the first time, but it is a good demonstration of the hypocriticalness of a "luddite". How can someone who is proud to not have internet access, suddenly pony up and obtain internet access? He is proud he is a holdout who "lost" his "battle" with technology? Apparently, in 2005, he couldn't hold out any longer, right?

    My thinking on the subject: it's not practical to go chasing technology, but neither is it productive to draw an arbitrary line in the sand of progress with the intent of going no further.
    Your critique of Ludditism (here and the previous post) is exemplary, Brian.

  11. #11
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    {...looney blathering snipped...**

    If you were motoring, and saw a cyclist, would you say, "He's a simpleton for using such an outdated mode; don't bother keeping any on-ramps open for him"?
    No.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  12. #12
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Your critique of Ludditism (here and the previous post) is exemplary, Brian.
    Proper Luddites at least keep to themselves. Junior here is just a grouch.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  13. #13
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    New slogan:

    You don't have to be looney to be a VC (Vehicular Cultist), but it sure helps.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  14. #14
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    If you were motoring, and saw a cyclist, would you say, "He's a simpleton for using such an outdated mode; don't bother keeping any on-ramps open for him"?
    no.

    unless he looked like this:
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    No. Neither would I call you a simpleton for merely sticking with an old computer. However, you chose to complain and whine about the state of the world and how the world should slow down and not make it necessary for you to need a new computer. For reason of all the angst and whining, I'd call you a simpleton. If all you did was maintain that you needed nothing more and you weren't bothered by the limited capabilities of your machine,
    There was nothing "whining" about my participation in the part of the "What happened to John Forester" thread (a while back therein) where all this calling of each other simpletons began. Re-read it. I did no more and no less than what I'd done several times before, without incident, on more intelligent forums over the last several years when somebody points out a pdf link and specifically addresses me with it. That's what happened in this case, and I replied, "I proudly don't get pdfs". My use of the word "proudly" was in compliance with your terms above; it was my way of maintaining that I'm not bothered by the allegedly-limited capabilities of this computer. My use of the word "proudly" wasn't meant as an insult. The fact that my opponents _took_ it as an insult (thereby displaying their ignorance for all the world to see, and for me to have fun beginning to point out) isn't my problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    And why does everyone keep calling me "Ratcliff"
    I was confusing it with Rhinecliff, N.Y. My bad.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    no.unless he looked like this:
    Hey!

  17. #17
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I didn't catch this the first time, but it is a good demonstration of the hypocriticalness of a "luddite". How can someone who is proud to not have internet access, suddenly pony up and obtain internet access? He is proud he is a holdout who "lost" his "battle" with technology? Apparently, in 2005, he couldn't hold out any longer, right?
    You're confusing being proud to not be planning on knuckling under to a new-technology item this year or this decade, with being proud to not be planning on _ever_ knuckling under to the new-technology item. I _didn't_ say that I plan to _never_ knuckle under and replace this computer! Only that I don't want to wastefully junk it when it has _too_ many, _for_me_, still-usable years left in it.

    There are _some_ things in the "never" category. One of them is that I'll never change the 19 words of the sacred, no-exceptions core of the Triad. If I ever do that, then you can say that I "lost".

  18. #18
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    Hey!


    but you're riding yours backwards down a flight of stairs!- that's a whole different thing. with those skills you could just leap over those on-ramps.

  19. #19
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    no.

    unless he looked like this:
    Even then I wouldn't.

    If he came onto an internet forum proclaiming that derailleurs are a conspiracy from Shimano, and that he is proudly unable to operate them, and that anyone that can is a patsy of big business/granola eating hippy, I might.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  20. #20
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin View Post
    p.s. Brian Ratliff --> "Mr. Ratcliff" --> I was confusing it with Rhinecliff, N.Y.
    I think even Junior underestimates his own level of confusion.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  21. #21
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    Even then I wouldn't.
    For once, I agree with you on something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    If he came onto an internet forum proclaiming that derailleurs are a conspiracy from Shimano, and that he is proudly unable to operate them, and that anyone that can is a patsy of big business/granola eating hippy, I might.
    The closest thing to that that I've done, has been to say that the Triad only requires traffic-signal loops to detect a _metal_ bike at all times regardless of the bike's lateral position in the right half of the road, and that carbon-fiber elitists can be left out with unshod horses as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by TheWheelman; 11-15-07 at 10:14 PM. Reason: quoting methodology

  22. #22
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    For once, I agree with you on something.



    The closest thing to that that I've done, has been to say that the Triad only requires traffic-signal loops to detect a _metal_ bike at all times regardless of the bike's lateral position in the right half of the road, and that carbon-fiber elitists can be left out with unshod horses as far as I'm concerned.
    I thought there was too little metal in a bike frame given it's distance from the loop to be detected and that what actually triggers the detector is the metal hoop known as the wheel rim which is a few mm from the loop when placed on it.

  23. #23
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    If he came onto an internet forum proclaiming that derailleurs are a conspiracy from Shimano, and that he is proudly unable to operate them, and that anyone that can is a patsy of big business/granola eating hippy, I might.
    my point exactly.

    all technologies evolve. not just communication technologies.

    Maybe we should all be riding penny farthings and safety bicycles or better yet let's just start walking.

  24. #24
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    I thought there was too little metal in a bike frame given it's distance from the loop to be detected and that what actually triggers the detector is the metal hoop known as the wheel rim which is a few mm from the loop when placed on it.
    I don't think there's many steel rims made these days, are there (other than on department store bikes)? Does a magnet stick to them?

    I've had the odd occasion when a loop wouldn't detect my bike, but if I lay it at an angle to get the steel frame closer to the road, it does.

    Steel bikes seem to be a bit of a rarety in the shops these days too. Aluminium is a lot more common. It's probably a conspiracy of the cycling inferiority cabal to make cyclists wait unecessarily long at traffic lights.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  25. #25
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Aluminum rims work perfectly well at triggering inductive loops.
    Al

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