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  1. #1
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    If a car can operate vehicularily in a door zone, can a bike?

    what do you think? I'm not asking for a debate pro or con door zone riding, this is more basic.....

    If cars can operate vehicularily in a door zone, what about bikes?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #2
    Senior Member DieselDan's Avatar
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    Drivers check a mirror and look for a car, not a bike.

    This stuff isn't that hard.
    Last edited by DieselDan; 12-12-07 at 10:46 AM.
    Bikes use brakes to stop.

    If your bike has breaks, don't ride it.

  3. #3
    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    "If cars can operate vehicularily in a door zone, what about bikes?"

    If you open your door into an oncoming car, it's going to demolish your door and may or may not do much damage to the oncoming vehicle. IE, it's a hazard for the one opening the door, not so much for oncoming traffic- exactly the opposite with a bike.

  4. #4
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    If cars can operate vehicularily in a door zone, what about bikes?
    Sure. Just be ready for any doors, and if you're gonna hit, aim for the driver rather than the door - softer landing (that last bit is VC+, not pure VC)
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  5. #5
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    yes!
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  6. #6
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    Sure. Just be ready for any doors, and if you're gonna hit, aim for the driver rather than the door - softer landing (that last bit is VC+, not pure VC)


    Seriously, yes, it's vehicular, but it's not prudent (VC+ = PVC = Prudent VC ).

  7. #7
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
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    When the right side of the traveling car is in the door zone, the left side is in a more conspicuous place, and the driver has better sight lines, compared to a bicyclist in the door zone. Passengers exiting a parked car are more likely to see the driver side of the moving car than a narrow bike in the door zone, and the driver on the left side of the moving car has a better view around parked vehicles.

    Whether I am driving my bike or my car, I don't operate within the door zone if I think I potentially won't be seen by a passenger. This concern increases greatly with speed. I have traveled in a few places where travel lanes beside parking lanes are too narrow for me to operate my car fully outside the door zone. I didn't like those lanes at all, and avoided them where possible.
    Last edited by sggoodri; 12-12-07 at 10:08 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member StrangeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselDan View Post
    Drivers check a mirror and look for a car, not a bike.

    This stuff isn't that hard.
    Assumption that is quite false.


    Anyway, the whole idea is that you got a thousand plus pounds to throw around, the whole theory that bicyclists hate car drivers following, well heres an example of it being promoted.

    In actuality, sure, it's unsafe, you can harm the person in the car, and taking something that weights 50lbs, and possibly a part of a car could be dangerous, not to mention just like on a bike, you can swerve your car into traffic.

    Just you have weight to throw around and feel safe with.

  9. #9
    Senior Member DieselDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeWill View Post
    Assumption that is quite false.


    Anyway, the whole idea is that you got a thousand plus pounds to throw around, the whole theory that bicyclists hate car drivers following, well heres an example of it being promoted.

    In actuality, sure, it's unsafe, you can harm the person in the car, and taking something that weights 50lbs, and possibly a part of a car could be dangerous, not to mention just like on a bike, you can swerve your car into traffic.

    Just you have weight to throw around and feel safe with.
    Simple stuff. A driver knows a car can't swerve like a bike. A driver sees a car in the mirror and waits, but sees a bike and gets on out, as it is just a bike.

    This isn't that hard. Just ride around the door or make sure no one is in the car before you pass.
    Bikes use brakes to stop.

    If your bike has breaks, don't ride it.

  10. #10
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselDan View Post
    Just ride around the door or make sure no one is in the car before you pass.
    So at 18MPH you can "make sure no one is in the car" for a constant line of parked cars... what... you have X ray vision?

  11. #11
    Senior Member DieselDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    So at 18MPH you can "make sure no one is in the car" for a constant line of parked cars... what... you have X ray vision?
    Almost every car out on this side of the country has windows made of glass that can be seen through. If the windows are tinted, you can usually make out an occupant's outline. It's called riding with your head on your shoulders, not up your ass sniffing farts.
    Bikes use brakes to stop.

    If your bike has breaks, don't ride it.

  12. #12
    Senior Member StrangeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselDan View Post
    Simple stuff. A driver knows a car can't swerve like a bike. A driver sees a car in the mirror and waits, but sees a bike and gets on out, as it is just a bike.

    This isn't that hard. Just ride around the door or make sure no one is in the car before you pass.
    I wonder how many people check their mirrors while getting out, being as I've caught people not checking their mirrors while driving.

    I would say that it's easier to miss a bike, not acknowledge theres a bike and be like "lol bikes suck, I'm opening my door now".

  13. #13
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    I'm never in the door zone whether driving or cycling. (The driver's seat is always out of the door zone, provided the parked cars are on the right.)

    This is another of those junior high arguments ad absurdum. Since doorings are fairly common, obviously they present a risk to cyclists. Of course the solution is simple and 100 % effective, so discussing the issue is just a damn waste of time.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  14. #14
    Senior Member StrangeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I'm never in the door zone whether driving or cycling. (The driver's seat is always out of the door zone, provided the parked cars are on the right.)
    The point is that you can just as easily swerve into oncoming traffic to avoid a dooring just like you can swerve into traffic to avoid a dooring on a bike.

    Really, again, it's because you have 2000+lbs to take that door clean off the car (and any body parts of the driver getting out), and thats the only reason why.

  15. #15
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeWill View Post
    The point is that you can just as easily swerve into oncoming traffic to avoid a dooring just like you can swerve into traffic to avoid a dooring on a bike.

    Really, again, it's because you have 2000+lbs to take that door clean off the car (and any body parts of the driver getting out), and thats the only reason why.
    I don't feel particularly comfortable swerving into traffic to avoid a dooring. Or for any other reason.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  16. #16
    Senior Member StrangeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I don't feel particularly comfortable swerving into traffic to avoid a dooring. Or for any other reason.
    Well I meant the danger is still there for the whole swerving theory, and the only reason it's safer is because you can totally destroy the door and keep yourself safe holding the lane...

    As for the guy opening the door? He may be dead, but thats neither here nor there apparently.

  17. #17
    ROM 6:23 flipped4bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieselDan View Post
    Drivers check a mirror and look for a car, not a bike.

    This stuff isn't that hard.
    +1. From what I can see, if someone opens a door into another car, lots of things get damaged, insurance companies jump in, laws are clear, and it's the door openers fault and pays up. Now if the door opens into a bicyclist, the cyclist gets hurt sometimes badly, insurance companies run away, laws only care about property damage and no one wants to pay up.

    Sheet metal can be replaced, but recovering to full health isn't a given.
    Every time we let a vehicle pass there is a little bit of compromise. But compromise allows the city to function and allows cyclists to function in the city. The trick is not to eliminate compromise but to learn how to work safely within it.

    --Robert Hurst

  18. #18
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    it appears riding in a door zone is actually vehicular in nature according to the rules of the road, just not advised.

    And roody, your comedic assertion you're never in the door zone in the driver's seat? but your CAR is on occasion, roody and that's what really counts. motorists drive their cars in the door zone past other cars REGULARILY. and in a vehicular matter.

    Door zones ARE part of the road used for vehicular operation of vehicles on many roads.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 01-08-08 at 08:54 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #19
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Door zones ARE part of the road used for vehicular operation of vehicles on many roads.
    Not by me. I have never ridden in a door zone, never detoured to avoid one, and don't see any foreseeable reason to do so. If I move to a small Tuscan village that was built in the Middle Ages, I might change my mind.

    Meanwhile, EVERY lane that's wide enough to accomodate a car is wide enough to accomodate a cyclist riding outside the door zone. (As you yourself implied in a previous post on this thread.)

    Think about it, new riders. If you're riding where the drivers' seats are, you are outside the door zone.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  20. #20
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    I think they should ban car doors.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  21. #21
    not a role model JeffS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    And roody, your comedic assertion you're never in the door zone in the driver's seat? but your CAR is on occasion, roody and that's what really counts. motorists drive their cars in the door zone past other cars REGULARILY. and in a vehicular matter.
    What's your point?

    You can't/don't/won't differentiate between risk to property and risk to human life?

    In your first post, you've made the assertion that cars can operate safely, which is only true if you're discussing the drivers of said vehicles. I can't imagine why I'm bothering. Unless someone is agreeing with you you're incapable of hearing them anyway.

  22. #22
    another cat...FAB! stevesurf's Avatar
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    At least in New York, there is no law stating that a cyclist must travel in the "non-door" portion of the bike lane and there is a law that it's the driver of the parked vehicle's responsibility to watch for any traffic:

    " 1214. Opening and closing vehicle doors. No person shall open the door of a motor vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless and until it is reasonably safe to do so, and can be done without
    interfering with the movement of other traffic, nor shall any person leave a door open on the side of a vehicle available to moving traffic for a period of time longer than necessary to load or unload passengers."
    (2) Driving on or across bicycle lanes prohibited. No person shall drive a
    vehicle on or across a designated bicycle lane, except when it is reasonable and
    necessary:
    (i) to enter or leave a driveway; or
    (ii) to enter or leave a legal curbside parking space; or
    Section 4-12
    54
    (iii) to cross an intersection; or
    (iv) to make a turn within an intersection; or
    (v) to comply with the direction of any law enforcement officer or other
    person authorized to enforce this rule; or
    (vi) to avoid an obstacle which leaves fewer than ten feet available for
    the free movement of vehicular traffic.
    Notwithstanding any other rule, no person shall drive a vehicle on or across a
    designated bicycle lane in such manner as to interfere with the safety and
    passage of persons operating bicycles thereon


    Here's one discussion:
    NYC - Man doored and killed on 6th Ave and 36th St

  23. #23
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    The motor vehicle you should (in this case) be looking at for comparison is a motorcycle. Motorcycle driver safety manuals sometimes note to avoid driving in door zones. I've never seen a motorcycle driver position in door zone unless they are taking a specific risk vs. benefit while filtering between parked cars and stopped traffic.
    Al

  24. #24
    Senior Member StrangeWill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    I think they should ban car doors.
    Actually I wonder why we still use swing out models, swing up and swing under models while newer and a little more pricey let you park in tight places and keep you from dooring things (except a low ceiling maybe). Though it may be a little dorky ("LOL LAMBO DOORS!"), as they become common place it would probably be accepted more.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevesurf View Post
    At least in New York, there is no law stating that a cyclist must travel in the "non-door" portion of the bike lane and there is a law that it's the driver of the parked vehicle's responsibility to watch for any traffic:
    Here's one discussion:
    NYC - Man doored and killed on 6th Ave and 36th St
    Yeah, the person on the side of the road needs to yield to traffic while opening their door, I think thats how it is in all places with cities. However, people don't always do this no matter how much people here want to think it's just people that are anti-bike. People don't use their mirrors a lot, period. I've watched people pop open doors just to find out a car is coming and race to close it.

    As for my car, yes, it's in the door zone... every time I drive alongside parked cars (no I wont lie about that to support any argument), lanes aren't wide enough to not be (even for my little car). Do I do it on my bike? Sometimes, depending on the situation, though I pay extremely good attention, and being as my speed is cut in half of that when in my car, I see people in rear view mirrors and such. I don't race through door zones for obvious reasons. Generally I don't like it and try to avoid it, but I like it more than battling with a couple of the nasty roads here.
    Last edited by StrangeWill; 01-14-08 at 03:01 PM.

  25. #25
    Tom (ex)Builder twahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeWill View Post
    Actually I wonder why we still use swing out models, swing up and swing under models while newer and a little more pricey let you park in tight places and keep you from dooring things (except a low ceiling maybe). Though it may be a little dorky ("LOL LAMBO DOORS!"), as they become common place it would probably be accepted more.
    I don't know about you, but if there aint room to open a conventional door, there aint room for me to get out.
    Tom

    "It hurts so good..."

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