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  1. #51
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
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    Boy, there's rude and off topic.

    you've got nothing about thru traffic being routed to the right of potential turning traffic while riding VC, wheel?

  2. #52
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    Thank you for reminding me about one of my New Year's resolutions: To gladly cede "victory" to losers like you any day.
    For someone who claims to be the Captain of the Susquehanna County Wheelmen, you sure have a poor attitude towards cyclists. I guess their standards are pretty low when it comes to choosing a leader. I also see that you're relatively new to the forums as well, which might explain your ignorance when it comes to implying that Bek is not a cyclist.

    Brian

  3. #53
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I can't explain the discrepancy either. I make course corrections all the time so that I won't hit somebody or something, or so they won't hit me. But I consider that a normal part of riding, not an "incident." One thing that bugs me is when cars pass me just before a stop sign or red light. That happens pretty often--maybe every time I ride on small streets. It pisses me off, but I don't consider it an incident.
    The reason it pisses you off is because these guys are violating your ROW... and this is counter to the VC principals that Forester et. al. preach. The key to the VC theories they espouse is that motorists are supposed to be rule abiding and predictable... and when motorists violate the rules, then you are at risk, and motorists often violate the rules and there are many more motorists on the road than cyclists, so yeah chances are indeed that others are violating your VC behavior in spite of your efforts.

    Sure, we can work to avoid such instances and then just ignore them... but the whole roadway environment is based on co-operation... not artful dodging, or fanciful expressions or anything else subjective.

  4. #54
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    The reason it pisses you off is because these guys are violating your ROW... and this is counter to the VC principals that Forester et. al. preach. The key to the VC theories they espouse is that motorists are supposed to be rule abiding and predictable... and when motorists violate the rules, then you are at risk, and motorists often violate the rules and there are many more motorists on the road than cyclists, so yeah chances are indeed that others are violating your VC behavior in spite of your efforts.

    Sure, we can work to avoid such instances and then just ignore them... but the whole roadway environment is based on co-operation... not artful dodging, or fanciful expressions or anything else subjective
    .
    It's not ignored by me. I yell at them: "You're not supposed to pass at a stop sign!" Their action is discourteous, but not a major safety violation like turning right into a cyclist's path. Right hooks are a serious infraction, but rare in my experience. Thank goodness.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  5. #55
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Boy, there's rude and off topic.

    you've got nothing about thru traffic being routed to the right of potential turning traffic while riding VC, wheel
    ?
    lol most amusing post of the thread. First there's the pot-kettle rudeness charge. Then there's the mental image of traffic cops in white gloves directing cyclists to ride to the right of potential turning traffic. What do you mean by traffic being "routed" to the right? Who is routing cyclists to their deaths in Seattle? How do they do this and why? Can they not be stopped?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  6. #56
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    For someone who claims to be the Captain of the Susquehanna County Wheelmen, you sure have a poor attitude towards cyclists. I guess their standards are pretty low when it comes to choosing a leader.
    You, like Bekologist, need to study your opponents more. Simply reading the rest of the sentence in my profile that you bothered to start reading but were apparently too lazy to finish reading, and then coupling it with the application of a little brain energy, would have enabled you to figure out that in the case of the particular one of the Susquehanna County cycling organizations to which you refer (not to be confused with two other, much-higher-membership ones in which I also hold high positions), "their" standards indeed aren't high enough to have chosen me; I'm self-appointed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I also see that you're relatively new to the forums as well,
    I'm proud to have spent less time in this elementary-school playground than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    which might explain your ignorance when it comes to implying that Bek is not a cyclist.
    You mean all those hours yesterday that he was twitching his mouse, he was trying to twitch his handlebars at the same time? No wonder he has so many close calls per mile.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    You, like Bekologist, need to study your opponents more. Simply reading the rest of the sentence in my profile that you bothered to start reading but were apparently too lazy to finish reading, and then coupling it with the application of a little brain energy, would have enabled you to figure out that in the case of the particular one of the Susquehanna County cycling organizations to which you refer (not to be confused with two other, much-higher-membership ones in which I also hold high positions), "their" standards indeed aren't high enough to have chosen me; I'm self-appointed!
    Full text:

    Captain of the Susquehanna County Wheelmen, a think tank devoted to the principle that a bicycle is a vehicle and that therefore a bicyclist has the same rights and duties as any other vehicle operator and that there are no exceptions.

    You'll need to point out to those of us without ESP exactly where it states that you were self appointed. And I guess by virtue of your own use of the word "opponent" there can be no question that you're merely here to troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    I'm proud to have spent less time in this elementary-school playground than you.
    You've made no meaningful contribution to this site, so I would like to thank you for at least limiting your time here.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    You mean all those hours yesterday that he was twitching his mouse, he was trying to twitch his handlebars at the same time? No wonder he has so many close calls per mile.
    Perhaps you're too busy being the captain of your one man think tank to have a job, but I'm quite certain that most other posters on here do. Some of us even have computers at work. It's not like we're all paper boys.

    If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I can't explain the discrepancy either. ...
    It's true, I figure about once per eight hours of riding I come across someone who fails to register my existence even though I am right in front of their face and riding in the middle of the street; and there would be some kind of collision if I didn't see it coming first. I don't count the times that people fail to see me when I am riding in stealth messenger mode or on the sidewalk or breaking the law in any way. (I almost never have to deal with a right hooker, maybe once or twice per year.)

    Many of those road users who fail to notice me however, are jaywalking pedestrians. And many others are drivers diving in and out of side parking. So if you're riding in an area that is primarily suburban or exurban, and doesn't have lots of wayward pedestrians or side parking, or some kind of intersection every 100 feet, then a rider could go quite a while before having to deal with one of these incidents, and will have quite a different view about cycling in traffic. Could that explain the discrepancy?

    Happy new year one and all.

    Robert
    Last edited by RobertHurst; 01-01-08 at 12:55 PM.

  9. #59
    tired donnamb's Avatar
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    Seems like as good an explanation as any I've heard, Robert. Happy New Year to you, too.
    "Real wars of words are harder to win. They require thought, insight, precision, articulation, knowledge, and experience. They require the humility to admit when you are wrong. They recognize that the dialectic is not about making us look at you, but about us all looking together for the truth."

  10. #60
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    It's true, I figure about once per eight hours of riding I come across someone who fails to register my existence even though I am right in front of their face and riding in the middle of the street; and there would be some kind of collision if I didn't see it coming first. I don't count the times that people fail to see me when I am riding in stealth messenger mode or on the sidewalk or breaking the law in any way. (I almost never have to deal with a right hooker, maybe once or twice per year.)

    Many of those road users who fail to notice me however, are jaywalking pedestrians. And many others are drivers diving in and out of side parking. So if you're riding in an area that is primarily suburban or exurban, and doesn't have lots of wayward pedestrians or side parking, or some kind of intersection every 100 feet, then a rider could go quite a while before having to deal with one of these incidents, and will have quite a different view about cycling in traffic. Could that explain the discrepancy?

    Happy new year one and all.

    Robert
    I ride in mostly inner city areas, not suburbs, so that doesn't explain the discrepancy. What does explain it is that I wasn't thinking about pedestrians or about low speed examples of clueless driving. If I include them, I won't dispute the eight hour estimate. What I had been thinking about in the context of this thread was mainly right hooks. (and hookers--I've hit them a couple times )

    It seemed that Bekologist was saying you almost get creamed by a right hook every eight hours. I was thinking that if this happens to one of America's 2 great safety experts, it's a miracle that the rest of us can even make it around the block in one piece.

    Thanks for taking the time to clear this up. And Happy New Year to you also.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  11. #61
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
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    I wasn't inferring that in any way, roody.

    Happy new year one and all. who's gotten a good ride in today? I put down only about 45 miles.

  12. #62
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Happy new year one and all. who's gotten a good ride in today? I put down only about 45 miles.
    Today's high is 17, so I'll be rewarding myself for time on the trainer with a cup of hot chocolate.

  13. #63
    53 miles per burrito urban_assault's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    You, like Bekologist, need to study your opponents more. Simply reading the rest of the sentence in my profile that you bothered to start reading but were apparently too lazy to finish reading, and then coupling it with the application of a little brain energy, would have enabled you to figure out that in the case of the particular one of the Susquehanna County cycling organizations to which you refer (not to be confused with two other, much-higher-membership ones in which I also hold high positions), "their" standards indeed aren't high enough to have chosen me; I'm self-appointed!



    I'm proud to have spent less time in this elementary-school playground than you.



    You mean all those hours yesterday that he was twitching his mouse, he was trying to twitch his handlebars at the same time? No wonder he has so many close calls per mile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Full text:

    Captain of the Susquehanna County Wheelmen, a think tank devoted to the principle that a bicycle is a vehicle and that therefore a bicyclist has the same rights and duties as any other vehicle operator and that there are no exceptions.

    You'll need to point out to those of us without ESP exactly where it states that you were self appointed. And I guess by virtue of your own use of the word "opponent" there can be no question that you're merely here to troll.



    You've made no meaningful contribution to this site, so I would like to thank you for at least limiting your time here.



    Perhaps you're too busy being the captain of your one man think tank to have a job, but I'm quite certain that most other posters on here do. Some of us even have computers at work. It's not like we're all paper boys.

    If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.
    Hmmm...I wonder when the "YHBT" reply will follow. Maybe he is waiting for more time to pass to "prove" that he does more than post on the forums.

  14. #64
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Happy new year one and all. who's gotten a good ride in today? I put down only about 45 miles.
    Started the New Year with a century. 102.5 miles

  15. #65
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I wasn't inferring that in any way, roody.

    Happy new year one and all. who's gotten a good ride in today? I put down only about 45 miles
    .
    I'm visiting my dad in Traverse City, where I don't have a ridable bike. My exercise tonight will be shoveling snow, and maybe a walk to see the Christmas lights for the last time. Tomorrow night I'll be back in Lansing and back in the saddle.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  16. #66
    Tom Frost Jr. TheWheelman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Perhaps you're too busy being the captain of your one man think tank to have a job, but I'm quite certain that most other posters on here do. Some of us even have computers at work. It's not like we're all paper boys.

    If you're not able to abide by the forum guidelines, do not participate.
    You got one part right - I'm _not_ able to abide by the forum guidelines when responding to _you_. Therefore, I just waded through the control panel in search of the "permanantly remove self from site" button, but I failed to find it. You no doubt have access to it, so please use it on me immediately.

    Have a nice life.

  17. #67
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    A terrible loss for the forums.

  18. #68
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    A terrible loss for the forums.
    Yes indeed. A clear case of suicide by moderator.



    "Think Outside the Cage"

  19. #69
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Well.
    An interesting way to go. I'll always remember him as the best damn captain of the think tank we ever had.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  20. #70
    Senior Member Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    Yes indeed. A clear case of suicide by moderator.

    He hasn't been banned.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I ride in mostly inner city areas, not suburbs, so that doesn't explain the discrepancy. What does explain it is that I wasn't thinking about pedestrians or about low speed examples of clueless driving. If I include them, I won't dispute the eight hour estimate. What I had been thinking about in the context of this thread was mainly right hooks. (and hookers--I've hit them a couple times )

    It seemed that Bekologist was saying you almost get creamed by a right hook every eight hours. I was thinking that if this happens to one of America's 2 great safety experts, it's a miracle that the rest of us can even make it around the block in one piece.

    Thanks for taking the time to clear this up. And Happy New Year to you also.
    Yeah, a substantial percentage of these are pedestrians and drivers looking to pull into and out of side parking. I wouldn't call those latter examples 'slow speed' though. In many of these incidents the vehicles were moving at an alarming rate, because people see the spots and dive for them frantically, perhaps from center lanes, or jam the accelerator to get out of a space and into what they think is a gap in traffic; and often I am traveling pretty fast myself, so a collision with even a stationary vehicle or ped at that point is no slow-speed wreck.

    I suspect that there are actually quite a bit more drivers and peds who fail to notice me (and you, I suspect) than my 2-4 incidents per week average would indicate, but if I'm riding the right way with the proper awareness their non-noticing doesn't register because I have already assumed a fetid combo of blindness and carelessness in these anonymous faceless strangers and acted in a way to neutralize their potential to cause a collision, so whether they have seen me or not doesn't matter, and I don't care either way. Unfortunately, as you know as an urban rider, we can't launch a 100%-effective preemptive awareness strike on every other road user we encounter -- we are still going to be dependent on the awareness of others to some degree.

    The last time I had a close call with a right hook was about six months ago. This little car pulled wide around me and carved a ridiculous squealing turn in front of me while I was riding about 20-25 mph. I avoided the back end by maybe a foot. I felt this had to be deliberate and in such situations I tend to want to contact the driver and express my sincere regrets, so to speak, especially if they are, as this driver was, caught at a light just a block away. When I rolled up to the car there was a lady behind the wheel with a completely dazed look on her face, staring straight ahead, mouth agape, and holding a giant ice bag up to the side of her head. Looks like she just got out of highly invasive oral surgery, perhaps. It's a crazy, mixed-up, pharmaceutical-ized world out there.

    I think the reason I rarely have a problem with a right hook is that they are mostly easily mitigated with simple adjustments in position or speed if you're aware of the potential for a problem. I personally consider the right hook to be low-hanging fruit among cyclists' problems.

    Of course, when it comes to right-turning trucks that can literally run over a cyclist or pedestrian that the driver might not be able to see, right hooks have been deadly problems, especially in England (where they are left hooks) and notably and sadly this year, Portland OR. The length of the truck is probably more of a factor in these incidents than the height of the cab, as a truck driver must set up for a right turn from much farther left than the driver of a car because the truck's rear wheels track so far inside the front wheels. If they don't set up for the turn correctly, the rear wheels will literally track over the sidewalk and take out newspaper boxes and light poles. Often I see right-turning trucks waiting to turn and they are entirely outside the turn lane. This can easily fool one into thinking the driver means to go straight, and if there is room to filter up beside, even a very experienced rider might have a small lapse of judgment and filter up beside their last truck.

    Robert

  22. #72
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWheelman View Post
    You got one part right - I'm _not_ able to abide by the forum guidelines when responding to _you_. Therefore, I just waded through the control panel in search of the "permanantly remove self from site" button, but I failed to find it. You no doubt have access to it, so please use it on me immediately.

    Have a nice life.
    Hmmmm, that was a short stint on BikeForums.

  23. #73
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    I think the reason I rarely have a problem with a right hook is that they are mostly easily mitigated with simple adjustments in position or speed if you're aware of the potential for a problem. I personally consider the right hook to be low-hanging fruit among cyclists' problems.
    I think that most traffic problems can be mitigated by the cyclist. If you think that the right-hook is a "low-hanging fruit" -- I concur by the way -- what do you think is a "high-hanging fruit"?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    Of course, when it comes to right-turning trucks that can literally run over a cyclist or pedestrian that the driver might not be able to see, right hooks have been deadly problems, especially in England (where they are left hooks) and notably and sadly this year, Portland OR. The length of the truck is probably more of a factor in these incidents than the height of the cab, as a truck driver must set up for a right turn from much farther left than the driver of a car because the truck's rear wheels track so far inside the front wheels. If they don't set up for the turn correctly, the rear wheels will literally track over the sidewalk and take out newspaper boxes and light poles. Often I see right-turning trucks waiting to turn and they are entirely outside the turn lane. This can easily fool one into thinking the driver means to go straight, and if there is room to filter up beside, even a very experienced rider might have a small lapse of judgment and filter up beside their last truck.

    Robert
    Why is this particularly troublesome in England? Is this just an empirical observation? That is, statistically speaking, there are more hook-accidents per mile/trip/rider than the US and we don't know why?

  24. #74
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    [....]
    I suspect that there are actually quite a bit more drivers and peds who fail to notice me (and you, I suspect) than my 2-4 incidents per week average would indicate, but if I'm riding the right way with the proper awareness their non-noticing doesn't register because I have already assumed a fetid combo of blindness and carelessness in these anonymous faceless strangers and acted in a way to neutralize their potential to cause a collision, so whether they have seen me or not doesn't matter, and I don't care either way. Unfortunately, as you know as an urban rider, we can't launch a 100%-effective preemptive awareness strike on every other road user we encounter -- we are still going to be dependent on the awareness of others to some degree.
    Yeah, I really don't care if they don't see me, or don't respect me, as long as they don't hit me. That's really the whole reason for the rules of the road, isn't it?

    The last time I had a close call with a right hook was about six months ago. This little car pulled wide around me and carved a ridiculous squealing turn in front of me while I was riding about 20-25 mph. I avoided the back end by maybe a foot. I felt this had to be deliberate and in such situations I tend to want to contact the driver and express my sincere regrets, so to speak, especially if they are, as this driver was, caught at a light just a block away. When I rolled up to the car there was a lady behind the wheel with a completely dazed look on her face, staring straight ahead, mouth agape, and holding a giant ice bag up to the side of her head. Looks like she just got out of highly invasive oral surgery, perhaps. It's a crazy, mixed-up, pharmaceutical-ized world out there.
    I've noticed that a lot of doctors and dentists are insisting that patients have a responsible driver with them before they'll even do a procedure.

    I think the reason I rarely have a problem with a right hook is that they are mostly easily mitigated with simple adjustments in position or speed if you're aware of the potential for a problem. I personally consider the right hook to be low-hanging fruit among cyclists' problems.

    That's the point I was trying to make in an earlier post. MOST (never all) right hooks won't happen if the cyclist is doing the right things. But what are the right things? (That's what's so frustrating about this forum. Many come here to argue the semantics, and never even impart their wisdom about how a new cyclist can make the journey a lot safer. So I doubly appreciate the time you, Robert, spent on this post.)

    Of course, when it comes to right-turning trucks that can literally run over a cyclist or pedestrian that the driver might not be able to see, right hooks have been deadly problems, especially in England (where they are left hooks) and notably and sadly this year, Portland OR. The length of the truck is probably more of a factor in these incidents than the height of the cab, as a truck driver must set up for a right turn from much farther left than the driver of a car because the truck's rear wheels track so far inside the front wheels. If they don't set up for the turn correctly, the rear wheels will literally track over the sidewalk and take out newspaper boxes and light poles. Often I see right-turning trucks waiting to turn and they are entirely outside the turn lane. This can easily fool one into thinking the driver means to go straight, and if there is room to filter up beside, even a very experienced rider might have a small lapse of judgment and filter up beside their last truck.

    Robert
    I'm reluctant to ever filter to the right of a truck, even if it's in a through-only lane. I'll usually stop behind them and just wait for them to get going. Even filtering to their left can be dangerous, since they might suddenly swing left to make the right turn.

    One of my phobias with trucks is that, after overtaking a cyclist, they can start their right merge safely, giving the cyclist a couple feet of clearance. But if they're going fast enough, their turbulence might literally suck the cyclist under their rear wheels. Is this possible? Or am I worrying needlessly?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  25. #75
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    You're worried about being right hooked by someone passing you and then pulling into a midblock curbside parallel parking spot??? Stay out of the door zone (track at least 5' from the left edge of parked cars), Beck, and you'll be far enough left to practically eliminate this risk.
    Absolutely false.
    Well, I'm assuming he's paying attention and ready to make adjustments in speed too. Perhaps I should have spelled that out? After all...

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
    [Right hooks] are mostly easily mitigated with simple adjustments in position or speed if you're aware of the potential for a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    I think that most traffic problems can be mitigated by the cyclist. If you think that the right-hook is a "low-hanging fruit" -- I concur by the way -- what do you think is a "high-hanging fruit"?
    Good question. I'm very interested in hearing what Robert will say. Perhaps motorists suddenly pulling out in front of you from a blind alley while you're riding mindlessly in the bike lane/margin?

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