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  1. #1
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    curbhugging narrow lanes?

    at what speed does "hug the curb" replace 'taking the lane'?


    Quote Originally Posted by john forestor
    "....on a narrow 2-lane rural highway under the conditions in which one would anticipate 65 mph motoring, I think that I would not take the lane."
    for john forestor, 65 mph kicks him to the curb where he must cower, unvehicularily, in the face of high speed overtaking traffic. on roads with high speed differentials and lanes too narrow to be safely shared, john forester admits he would not take the lane, and presumably hug the curb, white stripe or k-rail.



    Does riding a 30 mph road and hugging the curb still pass john forestors' criticism for appropriate bicycle operation?

    if it's okay to hug the edge on narrow laned, high speed roads, surely it must also be okay to hug the curb of lower speed roads.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 01-22-08 at 04:29 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #2
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Is this a question or an attack?
    Not too much to say here

  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    are you upset?

    i see a contradiction in how to operate a bike in traffic, it appears it depends on the speed differential. take the lane on slow speed roads, hug the curb for dear life on higher speed ones.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    are you upset?

    i see a contradiction in how to operate a bike in traffic, it appears it depends on the speed differential. take the lane on slow speed roads, hug the curb for dear life on higher speed ones.
    Of course appropriate lane positioning depends on speed differential. That's what the concept of speed positioning is based on.

    Now, with a mirror I will probably choose to take the lane during gaps even on a 65 mph 2 lane road so that the next driver approaching from behind will realize sooner rather than later that I'm in the road, that he needs to at least encroach into the oncoming lane to pass, and, so, he needs to plan accordingly. More importantly, this position makes me more conspicuous to drivers in oncoming traffic thinking about moving into my lane to pass someone. Most importantly, this gives me better positioning and sight lines with respect to potential cross traffic conflicts in front of me.

    Now, as a driver approaching from behind gets closer and slows I am very likely to move aside closer to the shoulder stripe to make it easier to pass me, assuming there are no conditions that make passing at that time unsafe (like oncoming traffic, or a blind curve).

    But, if I'm riding without a mirror, I think that I would not take the lane.

    In any case, neither approach is in violation of the vehicular rules of the road, and so both approaches are perfectly vehicular.

  5. #5
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    dude. hugging the curb of lanes too narrow to be safely shared is most definetly NOT vehicular for bicyclists!

    if what head (and john) postulates is true, vc is worthless due to its shifting parameters.

    is it vehicular for a bicyclist to hug the curb of roads with lanes too narrow to be safely shared if the road is a 30mph road, helmie?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 01-22-08 at 05:20 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    dude. hugging the curb of lanes too narrow to be safely shared is most definetly NOT vehicular for bicyclists!

    if what head (and john) postulates is true, vc is worthless due to its shifting parameters.

    is it vehicular for a bicyclist to hug the curb of roads with lanes too narrow to be safely shared if the road is a 30mph road, helmie?
    Yes, Bekkie, it's vehicular for a bicyclist to hug the curb of roads with lanes too narrow to be safely shared if the road is a 30mph road, because it's not in violation of the vehicular rules of the road to do that.


    Vehicular cycling encompasses any and all lane positions that are not in violation with the vehicular rules of the road. Vehicular cycling does not specify any one particular lane position for any particular situation. There are principles and guidelines. Follow them and you are cycling vehicularly. Are some vehicular positions better than others? Surely. But they're all vehicular, as long as riding in them does not violate the vehicular rules of the road.

    I hope for your sake you're just playing dumb, again.

  7. #7
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    In any case, neither approach is in violation of the vehicular rules of the road, and so both approaches are perfectly vehicular.
    What exactly isn't "vehicular?"

    Maybe that is the question that should be asked.

    Thus far I have read that splitting the lane at stops is vehicular, riding at the curb is vehicular, and making turns like a pedestrian (as described in Effective Cycling) is vehicular.

    So far the only thing that seems to be "not vehicular" are "bike lanes," even though riding in that exact same location on the road IS vehicular.

  8. #8
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    ..... it's vehicular for a bicyclist to hug the curb of roads with lanes too narrow to be safely shared if the road is a 30mph road....
    I call major BS on that one, head. bull. if that's the case, this vc is worthless crapola.

    a new vc slogan of worthlessness: "hug the curb, take the lane, it's all vehicular!"
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  9. #9
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    I'm gonna ride in the same position on a narrow 65mph road that I would on a narrow 35mph road - wherever it is safest and most courteous for the situation at that moment. I could give a frack if it is 'vehicular' or not...words don't make you safe.

    Consider this for discussion...on a 65mph road where the lane is too narrow to share, wouldn't hugging the curb make it more likely that a motorist would attempt a pass that is too close for comfort than if you were obviously 'in his way' making it unsafe to pass without moving across the center line? I think most of us would agree on the answer...but humor me.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  10. #10
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    What exactly isn't "vehicular?"

    Maybe that is the question that should be asked.

    Thus far I have read that splitting the lane at stops is vehicular, riding at the curb is vehicular, and making turns like a pedestrian (as described in Effective Cycling) is vehicular.

    So far the only thing that seems to be "not vehicular" are "bike lanes," even though riding in that exact same location on the road IS vehicular.
    What is so hard to understand about "in accordance with the vehicular rules of the road"?
    What isn't vehicular? Riding on the wrong side of the road, turning left from the rightmost lane, going straight from a right-only lane, etc.

    Making turns like a pedestrian is not vehicular (by definition), thought it can be effective. Do not confuse vehicular cycling with Effective Cycling. Effective Cycling is a training program that teaches vehicular cycling, plus some additional traffic cycling techniques, like pedestrian left turns, instant turns, rock dodges, not to mention proper cycling nutrition, training, and even maintenance. Forester even mentions that he rides his bike on sidewalks once in a while; just because that is in Effective Cycling does not mean it is an example of vehicular cycling.

    Again, what is so hard to understand about "in accordance with the vehicular rules of the road"?

    And, yes, bike lanes are not vehicular treatment of bicyclists, but riding (or driving) in space that happens to be demarcated by a bike lane stripe may or may not be vehicular, depending on the circumstances.

  11. #11
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
    I'm gonna ride in the same position on a narrow 65mph road that I would on a narrow 35mph road - wherever it is safest and most courteous for the situation at that moment. I could give a frack if it is 'vehicular' or not...words don't make you safe.

    Consider this for discussion...on a 65mph road where the lane is too narrow to share, wouldn't hugging the curb make it more likely that a motorist would attempt a pass that is too close for comfort than if you were obviously 'in his way' making it unsafe to pass without moving across the center line? I think most of us would agree on the answer...but humor me.
    I agree.

    By the way, the answer to "what is safest" is not necessarily "whatever is vehicular". For any given situation, only one choice could be safest, or tied for safest, while many choices could be vehicular.
    However, for the most part, when riding on roads, "whatever is vehicular" is generally safer than "anything that is not vehicular", and whatever choice is safest is almost certainly vehicular.

  12. #12
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I call major BS on that one, head. bull. if that's the case, this vc is worthless crapola.

    a new vc slogan of worthlessness: "hug the curb, take the lane, it's all vehicular!"
    Actually it is all vehicular according to HH... except riding the wrong way and making turns from the wrong lane.

    So riding on a sidewalk in a vehicular manner (proper side of the road, proper side of the sidewalk, destination positioned and at an appropriate speed) is also vehicular. Just don't make a left turn from the sidewalk.

    Yet for some reason, a bike lane is not vehicular, but riding in them is.

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    "hug the curb, take the lane, it's all vehicular!"
    I've been asked to ignore you, for good reason, but I also think it's important to emphasize this:

    Yes, it's all vehicular, as long as it is not in violation of the vehicular rules of the road, and that means curb hugging is vehicular.

    A big part of vehicular cycling is learning your rights and riding accordingly, and so vehicular cyclists are probably much more likely to take the lane than are other cyclists. Perhaps this is why vehicular cycling is so closely related to the practice of taking the lane. But, there is nothing inherently wrong with curb hugging in terms of consistency with the vehicular rules of the road - it certainly does not violate any vehicular rule I am aware of. So yes, hug the curb, ride in door zones, take the lane... it's all vehicular!

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Actually it is all vehicular according to HH... except riding the wrong way and making turns from the wrong lane.

    So riding on a sidewalk in a vehicular manner (proper side of the road, proper side of the sidewalk, destination positioned and at an appropriate speed) is also vehicular. Just don't make a left turn from the sidewalk.

    Yet for some reason, a bike lane is not vehicular, but riding in them is.
    No, Gene, it is not vehicular to ride on the sidewalk. The vehicular rules of the road do not apply on sidewalks. Drivers of vehicles are not allowed to drive on sidewalks; it's not vehicular! Riding on the sidewalk is not acting like a driver of a vehicle, no matter how you're positioned, directed or how fast you're going.

    Is this really so hard to grasp? Please tell me you're just playing.

  15. #15
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    this is hilarious!

    riding 3 inches from the barrier of a ten foot wide laned, 50mph bridge deck is considered vehicular cycling?

    HILARIOUS! Head, you've really outdone yourself in this thread, and it's only on page one!

    according to head and john forestor, curb hugging IS vehicular! WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Bekologist; 01-22-08 at 07:29 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #16
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    vehicular cycling - what a fraud.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #17
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    head, do you understand the difference between lanes too narrow to be safely shared and shareable lanes?

    care to explain the difference, and why it is now considered 'vc' to curb hug (and encourage close passes) to facilitate lane sharing in an unshareable lane? is this because vc is really all about the convience of the motorists?

    RICH. incredibly rich.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  18. #18
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    No, Gene, it is not vehicular to ride on the sidewalk. The vehicular rules of the road do not apply on sidewalks. Drivers of vehicles are not allowed to drive on sidewalks; it's not vehicular! Riding on the sidewalk is not acting like a driver of a vehicle, no matter how you're positioned, directed or how fast you're going.

    Is this really so hard to grasp? Please tell me you're just playing.
    The vehicular rules of the road apply on sidewalks as well as in grocery stores... I see them applied in those very locations all the time.

  19. #19
    Yabba-Dabba-Doo! AlmostTrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    The vehicular rules of the road apply on sidewalks as well as in grocery stores... I see them applied in those very locations all the time.
    That would be the other VC. Vehicular Carting. This is where shoppers are encouraged to follow the vehicular rules of the aisle. It works pretty well actually.
    Have Bike, Will Travel

  20. #20
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    The vehicular rules of the road apply on sidewalks as well as in grocery stores... I see them applied in those very locations all the time.
    You're confusing what can apply in theory (and occasionally does in practice) with what does apply in practice (for the most part). But, then, confusion is a familiar state for you to be in.

  21. #21
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    No, Gene, it is not vehicular to ride on the sidewalk. The vehicular rules of the road do not apply on sidewalks. Drivers of vehicles are not allowed to drive on sidewalks; it's not vehicular! Riding on the sidewalk is not acting like a driver of a vehicle, no matter how you're positioned, directed or how fast you're going.
    There are plenty of places (Queensland included) that permit cycling on footpaths, and yet bikes are still defined as vehicles in those same rules. There is also a complete section in our road rules pertaining to pedestrians, and the proper use of footpaths. They are all in the document that is quite clearly entitled 'Road Rules'.

    I get the distinct impression that when you talk about 'vehicular rules of the road' you are referring to rules that apply to motor vehicles, and that cyclists should act as similarly to car drivers as they can at all times. This denies the specific differences that apply to bikes, which doesn't make them any less legitimate as vehicles, but means they can quite legally and practicably be operated 'vehicularly' in ways that would be inappropriate for motor vehicles, such as riding on the footpath.

    Your tunnel vision is showing again.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  22. #22
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    You're confusing what can apply in theory (and occasionally does in practice) with what does apply in practice (for the most part). But, then, confusion is a familiar state for you to be in.
    Only when talking to inconsistent, overly verbose nobs like you.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  23. #23
    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Bekologist=troll
    This never was a legitimate question, it was just an attack..
    Not too much to say here

  24. #24
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    There are plenty of places (Queensland included) that permit cycling on footpaths, and yet bikes are still defined as vehicles in those same rules. There is also a complete section in our road rules pertaining to pedestrians, and the proper use of footpaths. They are all in the document that is quite clearly entitled 'Road Rules'.

    I get the distinct impression that when you talk about 'vehicular rules of the road' you are referring to rules that apply to motor vehicles, and that cyclists should act as similarly to car drivers as they can at all times. This denies the specific differences that apply to bikes, which doesn't make them any less legitimate as vehicles, but means they can quite legally and practicably be operated 'vehicularly' in ways that would be inappropriate for motor vehicles, such as riding on the footpath.

    Your tunnel vision is showing again.


    and he thinks I'm confused.... I merely ride a bike.

  25. #25
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    'hugging the curb' is now, apparantly, addmitedly a bonifide vehicular cycling lane position!

    what a laugh. a gas. vehicular cycling falls far short.

    if one of the most outspoken proponents of taking the lane vehicularily admits he'd cower at the curb on high speed roads, and it's okay to do so

    the notion of 'taking the lane' becomes worthless, a counterfeit currency in bicycling advocacy.

    I see some new vc slogans

    'hug the curb, those cars can get you!'

    "Take the lane, if you get scared you can curb hug too!"
    Last edited by Bekologist; 01-23-08 at 10:45 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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