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  1. #51
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    If you want to disagree with something I said, and maybe even ridicule it, I can understand that.
    But deriding something I never said -- "All cyclists ride wrong" -- what is the point of that?
    Yeah. You never said 'all' cyclists do it wrong, only 'most'. 'Most' being everyone but you, of course.

    Yeah, big difference You even do it in the next sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Anyway, do you disagree with my contention that most cyclists ride as if their #1 job is to stay out of the way of cars, period?
    I disagree with any of the oh so frequent assertions you make about 'most cyclists', Serge. Especially when you only do it to try and convince us what a special rider you are. Get over yourself.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  2. #52
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocruiser View Post
    What are you basing your comments on?
    He probably read it in a book.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  3. #53
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urban_assault View Post
    And so it begins...
    who keeps letting him out of the bottle???



  4. #54
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    who keeps letting him out of the bottle???


    I know what one of my wishes would be.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  5. #55
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    No need to teach these things explicitly, Gene. It comes naturally once you understand your rights, pay proper attention to traffic around you, and adopt the right attitude (assuming you have the basic cycling skills already). Al that is virtually automatic once you accept, deep down, that you have the same right to the road as does any driver, and that is true regardless of what they think and do.
    Oh... It's a matter of faith. Riiiiight. Welcome to the church of VC.

    And how do you expect to extend that faith to the flock... especially in the face of oncoming 45MPH SUVs...

    Somehow I can just imagine you pounding on your well worn edition of Effective Cycling while ranting to your Road 1 Class about how they need to accept deep down... bla bla bla... while the sound of passing traffic is barely audible in the background.

  6. #56
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iltb-2 View Post
    Which of course begets "What do any of the VC Proselytizers mean by "cyclists fare best"? And how do they know it?
    That is an excellent point.

  7. #57
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    For a cyclist like me, the total amount of motorist "bad behavior" that I encounter and affects me that originates for any reason whatsoever is so rare that my behavior is virtually unaffected by it. So eliminating motorist bad behavior altogether would have little effect. And reducing an essentially insignificant problem by some small percentage (the percentage of all bad behavior that "originates from the sense of driver entitlement") would be even less significant. So I would be honked at 0 times per year instead of 6 times. Big deal.
    Perhaps. Then again, we have not determined whether your being unaffected by bad behavior is the best practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Okay, so that's me. What about other cyclists you say? Fine. If you look at cyclist fatalities, at least half originate from bad behavior on the part of the cyclist. And that's using a conservative assessment of cyclist "bad behavior", and does not include all behavior that I would include being "bad" (such as going straight from the right side of the lane into an intersection without due diligence, passing a slowing motorist on the right, etc.). But, let's say for the sake of argument that in half of car-bike cyclist fatalilties "bad behavior" on the part of the motorist is the major factor. Of those, what percentage do you believe the bad behavior "originates from the sense of driver entitlement"? Frankly, I would be surprised if it was 5%, and would not be surprised if it was less than 1%. But even if it's 10% (double the most I think it could possibly be, that's 10% of half). Assuming about 800 cyclists are killed per year, that means, at most, we would save about 40 cyclist lives per year. You say, that's great, 40 lives are worth saving, no matter the cost. But imagine if we spent all that focus and energy within the cycling community, and a fraction of those millions, on bringing about change in cyclist behavior instead... we could save not just up to 80 lives per year, but hundreds of lives per year, and countless more injuries. This is why I'm an advocate of best practices in traffic cycling.
    The statistics you quote regarding cyclist fatalities is often thought to be biased; i.e., dead people are unable to defend themselves in addition to any law enforcement bias.

    "No matter the cost?" Who are you talking to bud?

    Since you brought up cost you failed to consider what the cost -- and effectiveness -- of advocating best practices. Even if I believed your estimates, the cost-benefit of a little "motorist education" -- in this case, simply clarify cyclists/driver road entitlements -- could still proved far more worthwhile than a campaign to educate cyclists.

  8. #58
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=Łem in Pa=- View Post
    Oh boy......Every time I lower myself to partake of the absurd hypothesizing,
    provincial generalizations and over-the-top petty semantics I regret it.


    The important question here is, when will I ever learn ?
    Well, that is the point of a conversation ... right? To pass along and clarify ideas?

  9. #59
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Gene, I was addressing the claim that driver education would significantly decrease "bad behavior that originates from the sense of driver entitlement". Perhaps I misunderstood, but I interpreted that to mean the "entitlement" that drivers feel they have relative to cyclists, and the "bad behavior" that originates from that. Cyclists would be the sole beneficiaries of that, by definition.
    That is close enough for me.

    Although I disagree with the last sentence in this font. When people think that they are unjustly being denied their rights, they often suffer. Moreover, an irritated person is more likely to react rashly endangering themselves (and others) ... at least that is what I believe and is taught in some driving classes.

  10. #60
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=Łem in Pa=- View Post
    This is my riding style to a "T"



    Passive VC ?
    Sounds reasonable. And you sound more than comfortable with it. I am surprised you describe yourself as a sidewalk samurai.

  11. #61
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    Perhaps. Then again, we have not determined whether your being unaffected by bad behavior is the best practice.
    Being unaffected by bad behavior is not a practice, so it can't be a best practice.

    The best practices are based on the assumption that bad behavior in motorists happens, so ride accordingly, regardless of how likely you are to encounter it. That is, if the amount of bad behavior I encountered went down by even a factor of 10, my behavior would not be affected (well, except for the times when I actually encountered the bad behavior, of course). I would still be just as ready for it.

    For example, say I encounter 10 instances of almost being right hooked per year (it's not that high, but this is an example). Say, thanks to Gene's $200 billion motorist improvement education program, that went down by a factor of 10, to 1 encounter per year. I wouldn't change what I was doing. I would still look back as I approached any intersection, adjusting my speed and/or lateral position in order to make sure I wouldn't be right-hooked, etc. That's what I mean by being unaffected by bad behavior. If I encounter it less often, I'm not going to change what I'm doing.

    By the way, if I start encountering bad behavior more often, I will look at my bad behavior to see what I can do to encounter it less often again.

    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    The statistics you quote regarding cyclist fatalities is often thought to be biased; i.e., dead people are unable to defend themselves in addition to any law enforcement bias.
    Yeah, well, they're consistent with the behavior I see cyclists engage in.

    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    "No matter the cost?" Who are you talking to bud?

    Since you brought up cost you failed to consider what the cost -- and effectiveness -- of advocating best practices. Even if I believed your estimates, the cost-benefit of a little "motorist education" -- in this case, simply clarify cyclists/driver road entitlements -- could still prove far more worthwhile than a campaign to educate cyclists.
    I doubt it. We'll have to agree to disagree on that, at least for now.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 02-04-08 at 06:07 PM.

  12. #62
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Let's say you're right, and that some kind of motorist education would have these results: bad behavior that originates from the sense of driver entitlement would decrease significantly.

    ...fantasy maths snipped...

    You say, that's great, 40 lives are worth saving, no matter the cost. But imagine if we spent all that focus and energy within the cycling community, and a fraction of those millions, on bringing about change in cyclist behavior instead... we could save not just up to 80 lives per year, but hundreds of lives per year, and countless more injuries. This is why I'm an advocate of best practices in traffic cycling.
    It's only you that's arguing about an education campaign that would target only cyclist's safety. What is really needed is a proper driver education program that will reduce the TOTAL ROAD TOLL, which, considering the 40,000+ dead on your roads EVERY YEAR, has gotta be worth the 'cost'. Reducing the total road toll will, by it's very definition, also reduce cyclist deaths.

    Of course, there is also a need for some decent cyling education, for exactly the same reason, and there's no reason the same agency couldn't provide it, if it's money you're worried about . It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. My biggest concern for cyclist's safety in that regard would be if it was you and your ilk doing the educating.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  13. #63
    Devilmaycare Cycling Fool Allister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    By the way, if I start encountering bad behavior more often, I will look at my bad behavior to see what I can do to encounter it less often again.
    I'm wondering when you're going to start appying that philosophy to these forums as well.
    If we learn from our mistakes, I must be a goddamn genius.

  14. #64
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Ah, the worthless, vacuous wittcisms of the ideologically dishonest......"Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles".

    what does 'best' mean? most safe? Actually, bicyclists DON'T fare 'best' when acting and being treated as drivers of vehicles. Accident stats show bicyclists are safer on seperate paths or roads with bike lanes than on roads without bike lanes. hmm...


    Since 'vc' has been diluted in this forum to include curbhugging in narrow lanes, running stop signs, using sidewalk shortcuts, messenger style riding, splitting unsafe lanes and other moves of dubious vehicularity, vc shows it is ideologically bankrupt.

    the 'faring best?' worthless. That slogan was coined by a curbhugger, dontchya know?

    along the lines of "A picnic is most nice when the weather cooperates and the company is pleasant."
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  15. #65
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Being unaffected by bad behavior is not a practice ...
    Sure it is. If bad behavior changes how people drive you might want to change your strategy. You choose to remain unaffected or ignore it; that is, you choose to NOT change your strategy. Mind you, it could be the best strategy.

    It is too bad that we don't have better data on the subject. Because it is clear that the risk assessment of forum members is quite different. At the moment, it would even be difficult to simulate strategies since we have so little information on the necessary parameters.

    Regarding educating cyclists, I think that you are underestimating the cost and overestimating effectiveness of education. Getting the less-enthusiastic-cyclist to adopt a take-the-lane strategy is not easy. Moreover, teaching is generally human capital intensive which almost always makes it expensive and less apt for any economies of scale.

  16. #66
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Accident stats show bicyclists are safer on seperate paths or roads with bike lanes than on roads without bike lanes. hmm...
    You will have to do better than simply mentioning that such studies exist since you also know that other studies come to a contrary conclusion.

    What makes the studies demonstrating "bicyclists are safer on seperate paths or roads with bike lanes than on roads without bike lanes" so strong relative to other studies?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    You will have to do better than simply mentioning that such studies exist since you also know that other studies come to a contrary conclusion.

    What makes the studies demonstrating "bicyclists are safer on seperate paths or roads with bike lanes than on roads without bike lanes" so strong relative to other studies?
    The statement quoted from Bekologist, which you, invisible hand, are questioning, doesn't consider the real issue, which is the extent to which bike lanes reduce or increase car-bike collisions. If those who plan bike lanes either select those roads which are more likely to have low collision rates, or if they make other changes than painting the bike-lane stripe, the comparison is worthless. So far as I know, no study done in America meets the criteria of testing very similar roads without other confounding factors. The studies emanating from Europe, such as the recent one from Copenhagen, appear to have tried to eliminate the effect of such confounding factors, and they show increases in collisions as the result of installing bike lanes.

    The issue regarding bicycle paths is a bit different. Obviously, when on a path, the car-bike collision issue doesn't arise. The issue concerns the change in car-bike collision rate for whole trips, part of each trip being made on a bike path. All that we know about this subject is that many of the intersections between bike paths and roadways present difficult traffic situations of types that cause collisions.

  18. #68
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    vacuous ideologue. worthless pedantry.

    "A picnic is nice when the weather cooperates and the company is pleasant."
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #69
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    invisible hand, the stats are out for all to see and are secondary to the real meat of this discussion:

    the hypocritical yet totally worthless vc notions of 'faring best' as 'vehicles' is worthless, vacuous sloganeering. john himself doesn't act like a vehicle when the traffic is fast and the lane is narrow. john standing as an exemplary inditment of the hypocritical slogan's foundation.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #70
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    So far as I know, no study done in America meets the criteria of testing very similar roads without other confounding factors. The studies emanating from Europe, such as the recent one from Copenhagen, appear to have tried to eliminate the effect of such confounding factors, and they show increases in collisions as the result of installing bike lanes.
    That is my assessment and understanding too John. Although Bek might have a different interpretation and reasons for his statement. Moreover, it would not be surprising if there was research that is new to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    The issue regarding bicycle paths is a bit different. Obviously, when on a path, the car-bike collision issue doesn't arise. The issue concerns the change in car-bike collision rate for whole trips, part of each trip being made on a bike path. All that we know about this subject is that many of the intersections between bike paths and roadways present difficult traffic situations of types that cause collisions.

  21. #71
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    invisible hand, the stats are out for all to see and are secondary to the real meat of this discussion:
    Why not show us these stats and convince us of their value?

  22. #72
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    Regarding educating cyclists, I think that you are underestimating the cost and overestimating effectiveness of education. Getting the less-enthusiastic-cyclist to adopt a take-the-lane strategy is not easy. Moreover, teaching is generally human capital intensive which almost always makes it expensive and less apt for any economies of scale.
    I agree that getting the less-enthusiastic-cyclist to adopt a take-the-lane strategy is not easy, but accomplishing that is much more about attitude adjustment than acquiring knowledge. I also think it's much more about time than money, since it's really about changing the zeitgeist in the cycling community.

    I believe that there is a critical mass within the cyclist community that needs to "get it", and once that happens the sheeple will follow. I'm not sure what the size of that critical mass is, but I know we have not yet achieved it, and I suspect it's substantially less than 50%.

    The thing is, we just have to keep working on increasing the number of cyclists who "get it", and who then turn around to help others "get it". This is accomplished on multiple fronts, including with bike clubs, bike education, newsletters, books, magazine articles, and forums like this.

    We have the truth and time on our side. Best of all, how long it takes doesn't matter, as long as we have enough support to not lose the rights that we have. That's because in the mean time, we can just keep on riding in accordance with those rights - not much affected by how the others are not getting it, yet.

  23. #73
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allister View Post
    It's only you that's arguing about an education campaign that would target only cyclist's safety. What is really needed is a proper driver education program that will reduce the TOTAL ROAD TOLL, which, considering the 40,000+ dead on your roads EVERY YEAR, has gotta be worth the 'cost'. Reducing the total road toll will, by it's very definition, also reduce cyclist deaths.

    Of course, there is also a need for some decent cyling education, for exactly the same reason, and there's no reason the same agency couldn't provide it, if it's money you're worried about . It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. My biggest concern for cyclist's safety in that regard would be if it was you and your ilk doing the educating.
    Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to improved driver education for motorists.

    What I'm opposed to is having the bulk of the limited education-related focus, attention and resources that the cycling community has going towards whining about the need for more motorist education rather than towards promoting and providing cyclist education. The former (whining about drivers and their need for education) accomplishes nothing in terms of improving cyclist safety; the latter, promoting and providing cyclist education (classes, books, articles, forums, clubs, conversations) has almost infinite promise in terms of improving cyclist safety.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 02-05-08 at 12:04 PM.

  24. #74
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head View Post
    Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to improved driver education for motorists.

    What I'm opposed to is having the bulk of the limited education-related focus, attention and resources that the cycling community has going towards whining about the need for more motorist education rather than towards promoting and providing cyclist education.
    But as yet no education advocate proposal has mentioned how they can reach those that need the education the most... those cyclists that you cite as being in dire need of education; those cyclists are the least likely to seek education.

    At least cyclists associated with clubs and LBSs and secondary education may be exposed to the opportunity for voluntary cyclist education, but the group most likely to be sidewalk riders and night ninja riders and wrong way riders are not likely to be associated with clubs or LBSs.

    So unless cyclist education is mandated at the public school level, it is highly unlikely that "everyone" will get that education. The only other system is one in which cyclists are licensed and mandated to take education.

    On the other hand, most cyclists do possess a driver's license... so improving the driver education to encompass cyclists and cyclists rights (as more than a mere mention) would tend to improve the overall education of all road users.

    There will still be a very small group that will fall out of this education too... and for them and others that are already licensed drivers, PSAs and other public declarations of road safety and education could be implemented... including arrows in BL and police enforcement.

    But the bottom line is the current system of LAB voluntary education will never reach a critical mass as so many new cyclists are made each year by birth alone... well enough to overcome the tiny group of "educated" cyclists.

    Using "facilities" to provide education is also another far reaching method... signs and arrows (which are quite common for motorists) can help lead cyclists to do the right thing.

    The other issue you fail to realize is that by improving the education of licensed road users, you improve the environment for everyone across the board... so that you as a cyclist also have a lower chance of being killed while you are driving. And by combining cycling education at the motorist level, you leverage the small funding for cyclist education into a larger pool of education monies.

    You need to look at this as not a cyclist issue, but as a whole systemic issue... for all road users.
    Last edited by genec; 02-05-08 at 12:13 PM.

  25. #75
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    ... those cyclists are the least likely to seek education.
    Following HH's comment, changing an attitude is going to be really difficult in a mandated class with unmotivated students. I do think that if you present the idea from an authority figure that more people will consider the strategy. But I speculate that vast majority of the less-enthusiastic (my vocabulary is shrinking today ... baby on the brain) will never seriously execute the strategy without several other attitude changes -- namely those of drivers and law-enforcement. More generally, I just don't think that the payoff from trying has much value to most cyclists.

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