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  1. #1
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Draft paper on lane position


  2. #2
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    I should probably post this on my Facebook we could probably get a better discussion going.

    I have a small issue calling it a rebuttal to Dr. Walker’s findings as Dr. Walker was not doing a cyclists safety study but seeing if the appearance of the cyclists effected motorists general behavior, which too many took as a cycling safety issue and motorists individual behavior. Perhaps this should be titled the study Dr. Walker should have done if he was in the safety research field.
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  3. #3
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Now make the same runs using a woman or a wig, and then again using an older slower cyclist not dressed in cycling clothing. Run yet again using a person dressed as a student with a book bag.

    Run again over several different days to get a better statistical spread.

    Be sure to do these runs not as a team of two cyclists, but as one lone cyclist.

  4. #4
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
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    wow. lane control versus curbhugging gets better rider treatment. no new news there.

    a few points:

    a) two riders with cameras taped to their bikes/helemts likely increases the passing clearances of motorists.

    b) I wonder if the propagandists edited out or rejected any video with agressive motorist passing. horn honks edited out?

    c) lane control of arterial roads is not an effective populist plan for mixing cars and bikes on public rights of way.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-24-09 at 08:13 AM.

  5. #5
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Now make the same runs using a woman or a wig, and then again using an older slower cyclist not dressed in cycling clothing. Run yet again using a person dressed as a student with a book bag.

    Run again over several different days to get a better statistical spread.

    Be sure to do these runs not as a team of two cyclists, but as one lone cyclist.
    Sure. Certainly more could be done to check for robustness and improve statistical estimates. But somewhat along the lines of what Barry writes below, I think that the experiment is more interesting as a stand alone than as a rebuttal.

    My guess is that the biggest noise is probably from using two cyclists instead of riding alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    I should probably post this on my Facebook we could probably get a better discussion going.

    I have a small issue calling it a rebuttal to Dr. Walker’s findings as Dr. Walker was not doing a cyclists safety study but seeing if the appearance of the cyclists effected motorists general behavior, which too many took as a cycling safety issue and motorists individual behavior. Perhaps this should be titled the study Dr. Walker should have done if he was in the safety research field.
    What is this Facebook thing?

  6. #6
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    wow. lane control versus curbhugging gets better rider treatment. no new news there.
    But evidence for it is news. No?

  7. #7
    Banned. Bekologist's Avatar
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    evidence about behavior only an extreme minority would ever feel comfortable doing proves little in regards to planning for bikes in the transportation mix.

  8. #8
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    evidence about behavior only an extreme minority would ever feel comfortable doing proves little in regards to planning for bikes in the transportation mix.
    There are a lot of statements there which may or may not be true. But from my reading this is not the point of the paper. A long standing discussion on bikeforums is the effect of lane position. A common criticism is that we have little evidence of its effect. While this clearly isn't the pot of the gold at the end of the rainbow it appears to be a step forward. Moreover, the effort to conduct good experiments is nontrivial and should be applauded, IMO.

  9. #9
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    Sure. Certainly more could be done to check for robustness and improve statistical estimates. But somewhat along the lines of what Barry writes below, I think that the experiment is more interesting as a stand alone than as a rebuttal.

    My guess is that the biggest noise is probably from using two cyclists instead of riding alone.

    What is this Facebook thing?
    I fully agree with you on all counts... Frankly I find that 50 passes on two different days is not nearly enough data... especially compared with what a typical commuting cyclist may encounter in their 250 days of typical annual commuting.

  10. #10
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    IIRC the detail in Dr. Walker's paper also commented on the increase in unsafe passing events while riding close to the curb but since his purpose of the study was different that fact was not highlighted in conclusions or summaries.

    On the anti-facilities side of things I'll note we have some very poor studies that show that motorist do not shift lateral position as much when cyclists are riding in facilities, which should not be the issue at all. It comes down to the frequency of unsafe passing events and this is the first study that I know of that attempts to do that, this fact alone is worthy of praise.

    But there is still lots to be critical of in this study, personally I would love to see different road types and traffic densities studied. For most of my riding I find the right hand tire track sufficient for lane control which is not to say if I was on the road they studied I would not be in the left tire track but I would not call the left tire track the universal safe riding position.

    I'll also note that almost all cyclists have a "ride to the far right as practicable" law, studies like this should help in getting this law reversed or reworded or at least get this damn wording out of drivers' manuals!
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